Walmart Electronic

[James5v]

I have been told that electronics bought at Walmart particularly TV's are built as cheaply as possible and do not reflect the quality of the brand name. I also understand that if they need repair one is unable to obtain parts.

One technician called about a brand name to his parts provider. When they looked in their computer it was identified as a product made specially for Walmart. They informed him they did not carry parts for this product but had parts for any of their brand name that were sold by any other store.

Can anyone verify this information?

 

[REWahoo]

James, I don't have first hand knowledge but I did find this thread on an electronics forum addressing your specific question. The bottom line from the thread: Walmart models of brand name electronics may have a few less features (fewer connections, etc.) to allow them to sell at a lower price, but the products are of the same quality as anywhere else.

Are Walmart Electronics Lesser Quality? - High Def Forum

 

[James5v]

Thanks for the reply.

I hear that the inside electronic also has lesser features such as poor protection from electronic surges and anything else where they can cut costs. The other problem is if anything goes wrong, you can not obtain parts for the products. That was no addressed in the forum you gave and I will post the concern there.

 

[ziggy29]

I've never seen anything concrete, though I've heard this a lot. If there's any truth to it, then we need better truth in labeling because I don't think many consumers know there may be a significant quality difference between a $700 widget and a $900 widget with identical packaging. It's one thing to comparison shop based on price for the same item, but it's quite another when you're comparing an apple and an orange because the orange was packaged to look like an apple.

 

[Rustward]

I think it does happen. Not electronic, but I saw it when I was shopping for an office chair a couple of years ago. Went to a real office place and told them I saw a Global chair I liked at big box discount office place, did he have anything like it? The guy said, "That is a stripped down version of one of our near top of the line chairs. Let me show you what that chair is supposed to be like". He did, and the difference was obvious. I wound up getting the stripped down one from a liquidator after the big box store decided to stop carrying them, based on price and the fact that it met my needs.
A while back somebody who was shopping for a TV remarked that they were unable to find exactly the same models in different big box electronics stores. He was trying to do price comparisons but felt he was not able to accurately price-compare because the model numbers were slightly different in different chains.

Retail.

 

[ls99]

The process for reducing cost in electronics is the time honored activity called: Muntzing. After Earl Muntz. Who liked to make stuff as cheap as possible long before wlamart was even a thought.

His method was to have engineers create for example a TV. He would the then start with a pair of side cutters (dykes as they are called in the electronics trde) cutting out components like resistors, bypass capacitors etc. until the unit failed. Then re attach that component. By following this activity he could reduce the parts count, hence the cost to a minimum. It of course meant that thing barely worked, but it did work and sell cheap.

All hail Earl Muntz, who could have given Wally a run for his money.

 

[ERD50]

A while back somebody who was shopping for a TV remarked that they were unable to find exactly the same models in different big box electronics stores. He was trying to do price comparisons but felt he was not able to accurately price-compare because the model numbers were slightly different in different chains.

I'm pretty sure that is deliberate, just so you cannot ask for a price match. They simply say - see, that is not the same model #. Of course not, those are unique to some of the big players.

Do they take that opportunity to cheapen the product in ways not obvious to the customer? Well, someone with the buying power of WalMart probably could, but I'm not aware that they do. Re-engineering and re-certifying (if needed) costs money too. I would not be too quick to accuse them unless someone showed me a schematic of two near identical models with surge suppressors removed, or something like that.

It may also be that they just want to include this (a case or extra charger), or exclude that for a lower sticker price, but I think the price match is a big part of it.

The process for reducing cost in electronics is the time honored activity called: Muntzing. After Earl Muntz. Who liked to make stuff as cheap as possible long before wlamart was even a thought.

His method was to have engineers create for example a TV. He would the then start with a pair of side cutters (dykes as they are called in the electronics trde) cutting out components like resistors, bypass capacitors etc. until the unit failed. Then re attach that component. By following this activity he could reduce the parts count, hence the cost to a minimum. It of course meant that thing barely worked, but it did work and sell cheap.

All hail Earl Muntz, who could have given Wally a run for his money.

I heard that story back in the 70's when I was in school - but I never heard it when I got into the industry. I have a feeling there is more elaboration than substance to it.

For those who don't know, "dykes" ("dikes"? I never spelled it, only said it) is a shorthand meld of the words "Diagonal Cutters" - like a scissors, the two handles and cutters are diagonal to each other.




And no, if you do a google image search for "dykes" it will probably take a long time to find a picture like that

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

OK, I took the bait and had to google "Muntzing". One of the first hits was a write up from Bob Pease (always a good read):

What's All This Muntzing Stuff, Anyhow?

For those who don't know, Bob Pease is a highly respected electrical designer. He's been around a looong time (not an ER candidate, he apparently loves what he does).

Bob tends to lean toward it being mostly a story for marketing purposes, but Bob is quite the story-teller himself. But what appears to be the very real part of the story is that Muntz had his TVs designed to target the urban areas, so the receiver could be much simpler, since it didn't need all the extra stages and stability to pick up weak signals. And probably more reliable with fewer parts. Smart, and it seemed to work until the real extra cost of the receiver came down over the years and was a lower % of the total cost.

-ERD50

 

[ls99]

OK, Bob Pease is a highly respected electrical designer. He's been around a looong time (not an ER candidate, he apparently loves what he does).

-ERD50

Agree.
Bob is a splendid writer, in addition to being master of the craft.

 

[NW-Bound]

Pease is an expert in analog circuits. There are fewer of them now.

Talk about analog circuits, when in school, I used to spend hours studying schematic diagrams of Tektronix o'scopes and HP spectrum analyzers. These were designed by the experts like Pease


PS. Sometime, it is very desirable to build with fewer parts. In aerospace applications, simplicity is highly desirable as the more parts, the more things to fail, causing reliability and even safety problems. A good design has just the minimal number of parts to satisfy the stated requirements and no more. There are rigorous product specifications so that excessive "Muntzing" would not be accepted.

 

[CCdaCE]

I've heard of Walmart going to their suppliers, and reducing quality to meet a price target. Pickles was the first example I heard of, there are others in this article. Just read the first two pages. Huffy bikes were another example. I think Levi's was another one.

You can call it "making a company lean" or worse things. Basically Huffy had a range of prices. Walmart came to them and said, give us a cheap bike with a razor thin margin, so Huffy takes an order from them for 900k bikes, when they could only produce 450k. They couldn't make their more profitable bikes, so their competitors did, and stole that market. So, Walmart screwed Huffy or Huffy screwed themselves depending how you look at.

Levi's never sold jeans for less than $30/pair or whatever price. Levi's went to Walmart to start selling jeans there, but Walmart said to Levi's: make us jeans that we can sell for $20/pair. You don't think Levi's cut some corners? Or, the pair you get at Walmart for $20 is the same pair you pay $30 for at JCPenney or wherever.

Call it apples and oranges or pickles and jeans.

-CC

 

[ERD50]

I've heard of Walmart going to their suppliers, and reducing quality to meet a price target. Pickles was the first example I heard of, there are others in this article. Just read the first two pages. Huffy bikes were another example. I think Levi's was another one.

You can call it "making a company lean" or worse things. Basically Huffy had a range of prices. Walmart came to them and said, give us a cheap bike with a razor thin margin, so Huffy takes an order from them for 900k bikes, when they could only produce 450k. They couldn't make their more profitable bikes, so their competitors did, and stole that market. So, Walmart screwed Huffy or Huffy screwed themselves depending how you look at.

Levi's never sold jeans for less than $30/pair or whatever price. Levi's went to Walmart to start selling jeans there, but Walmart said to Levi's: make us jeans that we can sell for $20/pair. You don't think Levi's cut some corners? Or, the pair you get at Walmart for $20 is the same pair you pay $30 for at JCPenney or wherever.

Call it apples and oranges or pickles and jeans.

-CC

Thanks, but that article appeared so biased to me, that I could not get past the third page.

As you say, the companies that supply WM need to take some blame here, from the link:

"Wal-Mart was putting it before consumers, saying, .... You can buy a stinkin' gallon of pickles for $2.97. And it's the nation's number-one brand.

.... But what did it do for Vlasic? The pickle maker had spent decades convincing customers that they should pay a premium for its brand. Now Wal-Mart was practically giving them away.

Sorry, Vlasic was a big part of the problem. Obviously, one hand knew not what the other was doing. If the company spent decades building a premium brand image, why is a single person dealing with WM allowed to contract to sell gallon jugs of pickles at bargain basement prices? It was not just WM that was " practically giving them away", the article said Vlasic only made a penny or two on each jar. Now, Apple is an example of a company that protects its brand image (for better or worse), and you don't see them with a bargain basement line, undercutting their image.

Later in the article, they mention that Vlasic went into BK, and that the gallon jugs had little to do with it. Since I didn't read further, did they ever indicate that Vlasic cut the quality of those pickles, compared to their other gallon jugs sold elsewhere (the gallon jug existed before the WM deal, if I read right)?

Looks like another "we hate WM" article to me. Although, with the size of WM, there might be something to them having too much power in the market. Maybe the govt should at least look into that, and take steps to ensure the markets are as free as possible, before we are looking at another "too big to fail" scenario in 20 years - "who could imagine WM would be asking for a bailout?...."

-ERD50

 

[CCdaCE]

Nope, I don't think the article went into the production specifics of the Vlasic case.

-CC

 

[bright eyed]

Reason 294 I don't shop at walmart...

 

[jambo101]

All your Walmart electrical stuff comes from China where factories like this one http://www.wired.com/images/slideshow/2007/06/gallery_%20burtynsky_china/CHNA_MAN_10AB_05.jpg
Churn out everything from irons and kettles to stereos and tv's,not uncommon to have up to 30 different production lines going at the same time each production line producing the same product for dozens of different brand names 'the link is one of a dozen buildings at this site, http://davidlarkin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/chinese-factory-with-workers.jpg
So now you know where your Walmart stuff comes from.

 

[ERD50]

Reason 294 I don't shop at walmart...

Well then I'm sure you enjoyed the article. It appeared to be written to target people who have already decided they hate WM, and want more vindication of that.

The nerve of them to offer a product cheaper than the competition, and give people a choice. Tell those poor people to go [-]eat cake[/-], ummm, shop at a nice store where they can listen to someone play classical music at a grand piano while they shop, like Nieman-Marcus.

All your Walmart electrical stuff comes from China where factories like this one http://www.wired.com/images/slideshow/2007/06/gallery_%20burtynsky_china/CHNA_MAN_10AB_05.jpg
Churn out everything from irons and kettles to stereos and tv's,not uncommon to have up to 30 different production lines going at the same time each production line producing the same product for dozens of different brand names 'the link is one of a dozen buildings at this site, http://davidlarkin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/chinese-factory-with-workers.jpg
So now you know where your Walmart stuff comes from.

Not sure what your point is. Have you ever seen a large production factory before? Do you think elves make this stuff?

I'm all for having some decent working standards for the stuff that we import. If I can afford a piece of electronic goods, I'm pretty sure I can afford the small increase in price that decent working conditions would provide. Labor is often around 5% - 20% of the product cost, a bump in that isn't going to hurt demand all that much. Most electrical producers have standards above the local laws:

Apple - Report on iPod Manufacturing


And more importantly, let's not look at this in a vacuum. If not in that factory, where would those workers be? In coal mines (I'll let you look up the fatality/injury stats and working conditions there), or worse?

I don't recall hearing that those people were forced to work in those factories. It must be better than the alternatives.

-ERD50

 

[Bimmerbill]

I noticed this with some underwear I bought from Walmart. It was much thinner than the same Hanes product from another store. Didn't last as long either.

I wonder if they do it for other things too?

I buy diapers there, name brand. Seem to work well. I just bought a computer game, can't make that cheaper. I get 10% there due to a relative working at the distro center.

 

[Texas Proud]

I noticed this with some underwear I bought from Walmart. It was much thinner than the same Hanes product from another store. Didn't last as long either.

I wonder if they do it for other things too?

Yes... I saw one of the news magazines where someone from a jeans company said specifically they used thinner material etc. to make them specifically for WM... to meet their price target or whatever they call it.. The sad part is they are labeled the same so you think you are getting something for less than the other store, but you really are getting less...

 

[ls99]

Factories do make multiple quality units for different markets. My first j*b out of the Army was running several assembly lines for a record player manufacturer. We ran lines for their own label as well as for many private labels.

Under each label there were several different quality units made. All production lines could handle each quality, and label. Some additional women power was added for complicated units. By the way all the lines were staffed by women. What was made depended on the order's from private labels. When private label orders were low, we ran the house label units.

There was a huge difference in the quality of the units. Some of the private labels only ordered the cheap stuff, while some only bought the high end units.

The differences were in the quality of the mechanism, tone arm weight and materials, types of damping materials, suspension, cartridges, needles, turntable weight and quality, paint, fit and finish, packaging, drive motor construction to name a few. Testing tolerances were very different. On good units anti skate setup took priority as well as tone arm balance, shielding and on and on.

In the end the ordering customer got what they paid for, not so sure about the end consumer. I did see some of the cheap stuff we made for private label sell for not so cheap prices.

Even today browsing the old record players wherever sold I can instantly recognize the units and what is underneath the platter.

 

[FUEGO]

Reason 294 I don't shop at walmart...

Sweet! One less person in line in front of me at walmart. Yes, walmart does suck. I encourage everyone to avoid shopping at walmart.

 

[FUEGO]

All your Walmart electrical stuff comes from China where factories like this one http://www.wired.com/images/slideshow/2007/06/gallery_ burtynsky_china/CHNA_MAN_10AB_05.jpg
Churn out everything from irons and kettles to stereos and tv's,not uncommon to have up to 30 different production lines going at the same time each production line producing the same product for dozens of different brand names 'the link is one of a dozen buildings at this site, http://davidlarkin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/chinese-factory-with-workers.jpg
So now you know where your Walmart stuff comes from.

As ERD50 says, consider the alternative for these workers. Peddling junk on the street. Pedaling junk on the street. Slaving away in the rice paddies from sun up to sun down. Starving. Watching their children starve. Working in a factory, even a "sweatshop", is better than the typical 3rd world worker's alternatives. Not to say you can't have labor standards. But economics require companies to seek the lowest cost provider to stay competitive in the long term.

 

[Sarah in SC]

I could argue both sides of the Walmart question, as I don't want to shop there, but I respect other people's desire/need to shop there.

Chinese factories are definitely sucky places to work, but perhaps better than alternatives--it would be hard for us to ultimately say for sure from our safe, minimum wage protected spot here in the "first world".

Walmart changed the way companies sell things--having sat in that dismal parking lot of a vendor waiting room on a memorable day and sold them some stuff, I'll say that they are neither as bad as you hear nor as good as you hear.

I don't go to Walmart mostly because it is too much GP (gen public) exposure. And a million children. I may dislike Walmart, but I really dislike children at Walmart.

One of the mower companies stopped selling to Walmart because they were constantly nibbling at them to reduce the quality and price until it just wasn't worth it to them anymore. I don't blame them, but you have to be bold as brass as a consumer products company to turn down the elephant in the room.

 

[ERD50]

Yes... I saw one of the news magazines where someone from a jeans company said specifically they used thinner material etc. to make them specifically for WM... to meet their price target or whatever they call it.. The sad part is they are labeled the same so you think you are getting something for less than the other store, but you really are getting less...

I'm curious what you mean when you say "they are labeled the same" ?

I'm out of my area of expertise here, DW does most of the clothes shopping, but I don't recall seeing any label on a pair of jeans that states the quality level of the fabric (like #/ream labels on paper). Label might say 90% cotton, 10% poly or whatever. I'd be surprised if they were misrepresenting that, they could be easily caught by the buyer (unless it is a conspiracy to pull one over on their valued customers), or by a testing lab (that would make some great headlines!).

So when I go into a store and see something marked much cheaper than in another store, I always question if the product is up to the standards I want. Depending on my needs, the cheapest thing may be exactly what I want. Othertimes, quality and longevity are paramount. Choice is good. And often, price is not a very good indicator of quality.

If the model # is identical, then yes, the consumer should expect the same product, regardless of price.

So when it comes to clothes, I think one has to look at the content label, and then judge by appearance and feel, no?

Caveat Emptor (that's Latin for "Let the buyer beware", for all us de-classe' people who may have voluntarily entered a WalMart store at some point ).

-ERD50

 

[jambo101]

As ERD50 says, consider the alternative for these workers. Peddling junk on the street. Pedaling junk on the street. Slaving away in the rice paddies from sun up to sun down. Starving. Watching their children starve. Working in a factory, even a "sweatshop", is better than the typical 3rd world worker's alternatives. Not to say you can't have labor standards. But economics require companies to seek the lowest cost provider to stay competitive in the long term.

I wasnt inferring anything other than where your electronic products are coming from and i'm sure most of the factory workers prefer the factory life above slaving away in a rice paddy.i just saw a documentary on Chinese factory life and these people are actually trying to put quality into what they make and are happy to get these factory jobs.

 

[bright eyed]

Sweet! One less person in line in front of me at walmart. Yes, walmart does suck. I encourage everyone to avoid shopping at walmart.

I happily forgo my place in line for you...altho they do have a zillion lines. Part of the problem may be I'm not a frequent shopper and get lost in the aisles - they are soooo friggin big!

I do think the brand names selling there with lesser components are risking their image...I knew when I saw the commercials of major brands selling there they'd be something funny going on under the cover, no way it was the same thing.

While some may argue the wmart brings value, if the stuff they sell are actually lesser quality, then are you really getting a better value? Sure potato chips are potato chips (i think?) but if your undies wear out faster, or the toy falls apart sooner, you may indeed be paying more.