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Old 01-22-2011, 10:40 AM   #101
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.

Lessons learned:

1) it's a very bad idea to buy a cellphone (or anything involving monthly payments) for your kid, and put it in your name. Chances are very good there will be problems with the payments.

2) never ever deal with Verizon again (for me, anyway). It's very possible that they are all the same, though (regarding authorized users and their ability to renew a contract without permission from the person whose name is on the contract).
If you're going to do #1, and if Verizon is otherwise your preferred cell phone service provider, why do #2?
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:43 AM   #102
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I saw that movie at a drive-in when I was 13 or 14. It was a time of great tumult.

I had older family members who had pretty well demonstrated the risks of letting your rebelliousness get out of hand, so I was always careful.

I think much of this is just genetic, althugh this opinion is not worth anything.

BTW, this scene is full of symbolism. Dancing is a social coutship activity in which the rules are created and enforced by women. Most of the guys in this clip are happily dancing, but Johnny, the alpha male, stands by, not willing to enter into the group but waiting to act only when he is securely in command, and take a woman away on his moto.


Ha
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:50 AM   #103
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Another thing that is easy to miss is how much less forgiving the world, and particulary the US, is today when compared to say when I was a teen. When I put my self into the shoes of a young guy today looking at the overall hypocrisy and self serving bullsh*t everywhere he turns I have no trouble understanding why anyone might just take a pass, or rebel, or tune it out completely.


Ha
Well, rebellion in some kids might be understandable; what I have a problem with is the complete lack of motivation (to do ANYTHING constructive) that I see in some young people today, including my stepson. He literally doesn't want to do much of anything with his life except hang out with his girlfriend, drive his wrecked car around (as long as it will run, anyway), play video games, text and call friends on his cell phone, do the Facebook thing, and sleep. That's about it, as far as I can tell. No interest in school, no interest in getting a job, no interest in family, no interest in his health or fitness.....nothing. Most of the rebellious kids I can recall from back in my youth at least had a passion for SOMETHING, even if it was something that was not going to help their situation much in the long run.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:52 AM   #104
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Well, rebellion in some kids might be understandable; what I have a problem with is the complete lack of motivation (to do ANYTHING constructive) that I see in some young people today, including my stepson. He literally doesn't want to do much of anything with his life except hang out with his girlfriend, drive his wrecked car around (as long as it will run, anyway), play video games, text and call friends on his cell phone, do the Facebook thing, and sleep. That's about it, as far as I can tell. No interest in school, no interest in getting a job, no interest in family, no interest in his health or fitness.....nothing. Most of the rebellious kids I can recall from back in my youth at least had a passion for SOMETHING, even if it was something that was not going to help their situation much in the long run.
He is taking a pass. Personally, I would not blame him; nor would I blame you for becoming very frustrated by the position foisted onto you by this situation. I would also be very frustrated and even angry myself.

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Old 01-22-2011, 11:22 AM   #105
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.........

......... Dancing is a social coutship activity in which the rules are created and enforced by women. .........
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:27 AM   #106
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Wow! If this guy doesn't get 100%, no wonder the rest of us struggle!

Ha
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Old 01-22-2011, 11:32 AM   #107
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Yet some of us seem quite sure of ourselves as advisors and prescribers.

Ha
You get what you pay for, IMHO (this forum is free, is it not )?
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Old 01-22-2011, 12:09 PM   #108
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Late into an interesting thread – DD and granddaughter are with us and free time is a distant memory – for now.

Katsmeow, some thoughts based on my own personal experience, my children, and those of my and DW nieces and nephews.

This is very common. You don’t hear about it because parents brag and exaggerate, but they never talk about their problems, just other people’s.

Parenting is really hard. Especially in the US. You’ve done your best and need to acknowledge that and not lose sight of your own life.

Some children just take longer to get their act together. Some never do. There is no guarantee this will end as you want it to.

What you view as your son “not understanding” may be true, but it also may be him understanding quite well, and also making choices knowing he has a safety net. If your son learns by personal experience, he needs to experience the consequences of the choices he makes. When you assist – giving money, finding lodging – you impede that learning. You can help most now by helping least.

There is no single right answer. Our children (and nephews) responded well when they became aware that 1) what they wanted from life was not going to result from the choices they were making 2) we were aware but not going to bail or compensate for their choices and 3) much more effort and motivation was needed from them to get out of the surroundings where they found themselves.
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:17 PM   #109
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2) never ever deal with Verizon again (for me, anyway). It's very possible that they are all the same, though (regarding authorized users and their ability to renew a contract without permission from the person whose name is on the contract).
This is actually astonishing to me. We used to have our phone service (until last year) with Verizon and it always annoyed me that they wouldn't talk to me since the account was in DH's name (since he got a discount from work). He would call and authorize me to talk to them and then I would try to do something and they wouldn't say word one to me. We are at AT&T though.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:07 PM   #110
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1) it's a very bad idea to buy a cellphone (or anything involving monthly payments) for your kid, and put it in your name. Chances are very good there will be problems with the payments.
Here's a dissenting opinion on the cell phone: it's either a tool or a weapon, and the money issue is completely separate from the fact that it's a cell phone.

We don't carry cell phones* and didn't see the need for our kid to have one. Around 9th grade, though, she became keenly aware that she was missing out-- not only on the typical teen drama & angst but also on the study groups, the homework help, and the exam intelligence.

As soon as she got herself a part-time job she got a pay-as-you-go cell phone. It was an invaluable tool for her schoolwork, and ironically it also lightened up the hassle factor on our home phone because the teens stopped calling it at all hours of the day/night.

When she turned 17 we used the college fund to buy her an iPhone 3GS and a two-year contract. We'll keep paying for the phone until she finishes college. It's an absolutely essential tool for someone living in a dorm, and she has that thing loaded with apps for every academic occasion. She's saved hours of study time just by not having to roam around looking for a free computer (or WiFi network) and not having to walk to the campus library. She can even use it to take photos of the instructor's whiteboard, to record lectures, and to review the classroom presentation online.

So maybe the focus of the issue is the monthly payment and the recurring debt, not the technology.

*[I can hear REWahoo clearing his throat in the wings. The sad fact is that modern etiquette standards have declined to the point where it's considered acceptable to keep people out of the loop if they don't carry a cell phone. So spouse now carries a cell phone in the car's glovebox for her volunteering, and we'll probably carry it for travel. Luckily our daughter knew exactly what to get her in a pay-as-you-go model, so we ol' fogies didn't have to go through all the confusing vocabulary & sales pressure. I've managed to avoid being impacted by my lack of reachability and I intend to continue to do so as long as possible... or at least until I can have one implanted subcutaneously in the thumb & little finger of my left hand.]
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:52 PM   #111
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Here's a dissenting opinion on the cell phone: it's either a tool or a weapon, and the money issue is completely separate from the fact that it's a cell phone.

So maybe the focus of the issue is the monthly payment and the recurring debt, not the technology.
Yes, of course you are right. Our situation was and is very different than your daughter's, though. Your daughter has obviously chosen to use her cell phone wisely; my stepson did the exact opposite with his. Perhaps we should have seen that coming, but we wanted to put a little bit of trust in him to do the right thing (use the phone responsibly, and pay the bills on time). That didn't happen. So, in our case it basically just delayed the time for him to learn about the negative consequences of your actions/inactions.
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Old 01-22-2011, 02:59 PM   #112
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If you're going to do #1, and if Verizon is otherwise your preferred cell phone service provider, why do #2?
Because I try to avoid doing business with companies that I consider to be unethical, or at least employ deceptive business practices.
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:27 PM   #113
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So, in our case it basically just delayed the time for him to learn about the negative consequences of your actions/inactions.
A constant theme in our daughter's life has been that she's always preferred to raise her income than to control her spending.

Damned if she hasn't made it work for her so far, and by her standard of success she has no incentive to change her behavior...
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Old 01-22-2011, 03:50 PM   #114
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........... or at least until I can have one implanted subcutaneously in the thumb & little finger of my left hand.]
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Old 01-22-2011, 04:30 PM   #115
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... or at least until I can have one implanted subcutaneously in the thumb & little finger of my left hand.]
Hey, Nords,

So, are you going to make the shaka sign with your right hand or use your left for double duty - both phone and shaka?

omni
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Old 01-22-2011, 06:37 PM   #116
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Hey, Nords,
So, are you going to make the shaka sign with your right hand or use your left for double duty - both phone and shaka?
omni
Man, that's a good question. On the highway I usually shaka with my right hand up in front of the rear window because I keep the driver's side window closed. I use the right hand at the beach because I'm usually carrying the board in my left. But if I'm indoors I'm ambidextrous.

It'd also have to be waterproof, but I promise never to take a call in the lineup. The other surfers would probably beat the crap out of me anyway.

Frankly I'm hoping spouse gets attached to it and decides to carry it whenever we travel. These things have a tendency to slide out of my pocket at the worst times and I just don't want to be weighted down with personal electronics.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:18 PM   #117
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On several Dr. Phil shows he has spoken about maturity (understanding potential consequences). He says the part of the brain that controls this does not fully develop until age 25. Obviously, some people mature sooner, but these 'train wreck' types are ones who may be maturing more slowly.

omni

I guess this is why I have never been a proponent of the "throw them out of the house" approach.

I am a proponent of "be in school or be working if you are going to be living in my house", though.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:20 PM   #118
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For some people the best thing that could happen is for them to have to fend for themselves. They have to know know that there is no one there to bail them out; then they either crash or survive.
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Old 01-22-2011, 10:19 PM   #119
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For some people the best thing that could happen is for them to have to fend for themselves. They have to know know that there is no one there to bail them out; then they either crash or survive.
That is like teaching someone to swim by throwing them into the lake. They either swim, or drown.

this does have kind of an evolutionary purity to it, but most of us try for a more enlightened approach.

Ha
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:12 AM   #120
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That is like teaching someone to swim by throwing them into the lake. They either swim, or drown.

this does have kind of an evolutionary purity to it, but most of us try for a more enlightened approach.

Ha

By crashing, I wasn't thinking of drowning. It just means coming to grips with the consequences of one's actions. For instance, perhaps he should sleep in his car for a while....or get evicted from an apartment...or get fired from a job.
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