What does this sound like to you?

[MRG]

Could be a sign that you're 'on the bubble' so watch every move.

Could also be the sign of a young incompetent leader. I was a manager for Megacorp for many years, if I had a conversation about option conversion and performance, I would have been in HR having a 'what were you thinking' conversation.

The prior point was made well, HR is there to prevent lawsuits, but sometimes it's about stuff an ignorant leader is doing, that could cause the company problems. I would not play any lawsuit card, but I would review any written policy and procedures.

MRG

 

[RitaR551]

Sounds like a very similar pattern I've seen with a couple relatives and friends. A person is with mega crop for years, reaches a nice pay scale around the age of 50, mega corp suddenly lets person go.
It's all about the bottom line. Hire two hungry kids to replace the older and experienced worker for less $$. Lower pay and lower health insurance costs.

 

[W2R]

If this conversation happened in my workplace it would definitely be the first step, carefully documented, of the formal process to make you aware your performance was below standard and you may be terminated. The constant reference to your financial independence sounds like something a manager would say who is nervous and inexperienced and is looking to soften the message.

Yes, the discussion of your financial independence was your manager talking to himself in your presence IMO. Whether he discovered your participation on the forum, or found out that you are nearing retirement from some other information doesn't really matter at this point, it seems to me. He knows.

My guess that he needs to get rid of somebody for budgetary reasons and that if you do not quit/retire, he will have to terminate someone else. So naturally, he wants to know if he has to do that.

But then, it is possible that I am wrong and he is gathering paper to force your departure so it might be best to get your ducks in a row. Regarding that, it sounds to me like you are already FI so that should not be an issue. It might be time to start thinking about the psychological adjustment to retirement, and/or reading books that are designed to help with that. I haven't read any of these books but I am told that Zelinski's How to Retire Wild, Happy, and Free is a good one.

 

[ShortInSeattle]

Probably stupid . They have this whole department of people called Human Resources (HR) supposedly there to help employees. Their real job is to protect the company from you. They go to great lengths to make sure they meet all requirements to avoid problems. They also have more lawyers than you can ever hire. The comments all sound familiar, it may also be he doesn't have a choice. Somebody up top may have decided you got to go and told him to make it happen.

Ha! Former HR person here. Some of what you said is true, but I'm not convinced there is a decision to let him go. But it does sound like the manager is dancing around something without saying it out loud.

To the OP:

- It is inappropriate for the manager to be tying your age (retirement) to your performance. He seems concerned that your age and financial status mean you won't work as hard for them, despite evidence to the contrary. This is a potential sign of age discrimination.

- He said your performance had previously dipped, but didn't really give you specifics on how. One or two little things, but hardly substantial. Again, a soon that he is either a poor communicator (very common) or he's decided you should be put out to pasture. If he thinks your performance dipped, he should be able to provide concrete examples. That's his job.

- as much as I blush to say it, there *are* some older folks (a small minority) who essentially retire in place and come to be seen as a drag on company coffers. These are the ppl who put in the minimum effort to scrape by, never sign up for new projects or share new ideas, and sprint for the door at 5pm precisely. In short, they are seen as less committed, more expensive to employ, and less productive than others. It can become an unfair stereotype too - if someone has just one of these characteristics and is gray haired, overweight, etc, a manager might pigeonhole them as "less motivated" for no good reason. I assume from your comments that you have not "retired in place."

A few suggestions:

1. Keep notes of these conversations. (Date, what was said, etc.) Email them to a trusted friend outside of work (not a spouse) to date stamp them, or at a minimum, date, sign, and save them.

2. Do a self-check of yourself compared to your peers. Do you demonstrate the same level of commitment that they do? It's not just about the hours. It's also about tone, willingness to change, and so on. Look inward first.

3. Bring a notepad to your upcoming review. Consider asking the following questions:
1) A while back you said my performance had slipped. It's important to me that this doesn't happen again. Can you tell me what specifically you did not like about my work? I want to make sure I understand.
2) Am I meeting all your expectations?
3) to improve my review rating, what do I need to do?

Document those answers, and make a point to take action on them. If you don't get answers, note that too. Be genuine and curious, rather than defensive. Try to understand his points, rather than dispute them. After the meeting, start taking action on the items he pointed out. Document that you have done so.

4. If you reach a point where you feel your job is in danger unfairly, gather all your notes. You can do the next part solo or with an attorney.

1. Go to HR.
2. "I've come to you with a problem. I hate doing this but I need your help."
3. "On date my manager came to me with some weird questions. He kept asking if I was planning to retire, and he said that I didn't seem motivated... This is weird because I had been working 12 hour days and...
4. "I took careful notes during my review and took action on all three items he listed.... "
5. "Despite this, he continues to question my motivation. On date he said...."
6. He is calling me out as a poor performer but I see no evidence of this.
6. "I've been very careful not to jump to conclusions, but I can't help but think my job is in danger because of my age..."
7. I no longer believe I'm being evaluated fairly and I'd like you to (move me to another department... Get him to stop threatening my job.....)
8. Please look into this, and let me know what you can do.

Companies may have a lot of attorneys, but they fear lawsuits like a beer fears a thirsty old man.

If your boss is just a weak communicator and this is a one time incident, there is no reason to make a case out of anything, but if this is a pattern of behavior with him, be prepared to protect yourself.

PS: be careful of what you sign. A common ploy is for a company to ask you to sign a "release of claims" saying you will not sue, sometimes in exchange for a small concession.

Good luck!

SIS

PS: standard legal disclaimer - I'm not an attorney, I don't provide legal advice, make your own damn decisions and live with the consequences.

 

[Brat]

ShortinSeattle is giving you priceless advice.

It may come down to should I stay or should I go. The best time to look for another jobs is while you have one.

If you aren't emotionally ready to retire, FI or not, start a job search and line up contact information for references. Heck, you were recently promoted and have outstanding performance reviews at the moment. In responding to the why you want to leave question I would answer "a better work/life balance, I am comfortable working very long hours but not every week", you don't want to go from one crazy hours worked to another.

Do not use your employer's computer for any personal communication!

 

[ShortInSeattle]

If you aren't emotionally ready to retire, FI or not, start a job search and line up contact information for references. Heck, you were recently promoted and have outstanding performance reviews at the moment. In responding to the why you want to leave question I would answer "a better work/life balance, I am comfortable working very long hours but not every week", you don't want to go from one crazy hours worked to another.

This isn't a bad idea either. Sometimes moving on is easier and more pleasant than "stay and fight."

- SIS

 

[MRG]

What SIS said +100.

MRG

 

[Gotadimple]

Ha! Former HR person here. Some of what you said is true, but I'm not convinced there is a decision to let him go. But it does sound like the manager is dancing around something without saying it out loud.

To the OP:

- It is inappropriate for the manager to be tying your age (retirement) to your performance. He seems concerned that your age and financial status mean you won't work as hard for them, despite evidence to the contrary. This is a potential sign of age discrimination.

- He said your performance had previously dipped, but didn't really give you specifics on how. One or two little things, but hardly substantial. Again, a soon that he is either a poor communicator (very common) or he's decided you should be put out to pasture. If he thinks your performance dipped, he should be able to provide concrete examples. That's his job.

- as much as I blush to say it, there *are* some older folks (a small minority) who essentially retire in place and come to be seen as a drag on company coffers. These are the ppl who put in the minimum effort to scrape by, never sign up for new projects or share new ideas, and sprint for the door at 5pm precisely. In short, they are seen as less committed, more expensive to employ, and less productive than others. It can become an unfair stereotype too - if someone has just one of these characteristics and is gray haired, overweight, etc, a manager might pigeonhole them as "less motivated" for no good reason. I assume from your comments that you have not "retired in place."

A few suggestions:

1. Keep notes of these conversations. (Date, what was said, etc.) Email them to a trusted friend outside of work (not a spouse) to date stamp them, or at a minimum, date, sign, and save them.

2. Do a self-check of yourself compared to your peers. Do you demonstrate the same level of commitment that they do? It's not just about the hours. It's also about tone, willingness to change, and so on. Look inward first.

3. Bring a notepad to your upcoming review. Consider asking the following questions:
1) A while back you said my performance had slipped. It's important to me that this doesn't happen again. Can you tell me what specifically you did not like about my work? I want to make sure I understand.
2) Am I meeting all your expectations?
3) to improve my review rating, what do I need to do?

Document those answers, and make a point to take action on them. If you don't get answers, note that too. Be genuine and curious, rather than defensive. Try to understand his points, rather than dispute them. After the meeting, start taking action on the items he pointed out. Document that you have done so.

4. If you reach a point where you feel your job is in danger unfairly, gather all your notes. You can do the next part solo or with an attorney.

1. Go to HR.
2. "I've come to you with a problem. I hate doing this but I need your help."
3. "On date my manager came to me with some weird questions. He kept asking if I was planning to retire, and he said that I didn't seem motivated... This is weird because I had been working 12 hour days and...
4. "I took careful notes during my review and took action on all three items he listed.... "
5. "Despite this, he continues to question my motivation. On date he said...."
6. He is calling me out as a poor performer but I see no evidence of this.
6. "I've been very careful not to jump to conclusions, but I can't help but think my job is in danger because of my age..."
7. I no longer believe I'm being evaluated fairly and I'd like you to (move me to another department... Get him to stop threatening my job.....)
8. Please look into this, and let me know what you can do.

Companies may have a lot of attorneys, but they fear lawsuits like a beer fears a thirsty old man.

If your boss is just a weak communicator and this is a one time incident, there is no reason to make a case out of anything, but if this is a pattern of behavior with him, be prepared to protect yourself.

PS: be careful of what you sign. A common ploy is for a company to ask you to sign a "release of claims" saying you will not sue, sometimes in exchange for a small concession.

Good luck!

SIS

PS: standard legal disclaimer - I'm not an attorney, I don't provide legal advice, make your own damn decisions and live with the consequences.

+1

And finally, do not use company equipment for personal use. If you have been using the work internet to read ER.org, stop immediately. If nothing else works for them, they can use this for immediate termination.

It appears your cost to the company is what is motivating your manager's actions. You have choices, he doesn't.

You can quit - they get off with no additional financial payout.
You can transfer, his department budget gets a break.
They can terminate you and you need to then negotiate a severance package.

Check your employee handbook for policies on personal use of the internet, termination actions, layoff packages.

But most of all, remember that you are in the driver's seat here.

-- Rita

 

[REWahoo]

3. Bring a notepad to your upcoming review. Consider asking the following questions:
1) A while back you said my performance had slipped. It's important to me that this doesn't happen again. Can you tell me what specifically you did not like about my work? I want to make sure I understand.
2) Am I meeting all your expectations?
3) to improve my review rating, what do I need to do?

Document those answers, and make a point to take action on them. If you don't get answers, note that too. Be genuine and curious, rather than defensive. Try to understand his points, rather than dispute them. After the meeting, start taking action on the items he pointed out. Document that you have done so.

One additional suggestion:

Having been in a similar situation myself, I sent a memo to my manager every other week documenting my actions to meet/exceed expectations and asked for feedback on how he viewed my progress. This [-]irritated the heck out of him[/-] forced him to respond and allowed me to determine just how serious the situation really was. After a few weeks, he [-]got tired of responding[/-] decided I had shown excellent progress and said my performance was no longer in question.

 

[M Paquette]

Interesting situation. And some good advice from others!

I was telecommuting several days a week, and in the office first 3 days a week, then two, and finally for my last few years, one day a week. The daily driving time to and from work rose to take about 3.5-4 hours of driving for an in-the-office day. I could get more work done, and be fresher by telecommuting.

Because I wasn't visible in the office, there were some complaints about my not being there, and the inevitable questions about productivity. I addressed these in several ways, directed at raising my visibility and improving the perception others had of me.

1) We already had to file regular status reports on what we were doing. I raised the bar for myself, installing tracking software (made for lawyers, although I was an engineer) on my main work machine that logged what I was doing every 15 minutes. By sorting documents into task-related folders, I could set the logger to record the folder name. This let me generate a "billable hours" statement every week that I could turn into a status report. The status reports regularly reflected a 50+ hour week, broken down to the quarter-hour on tasks I was performing. (I suspect that this was slightly annoying to my manager...)

2) The 'psych' factor... The directors and executive team dressed a bit differently from the engineering staff. I redid my work wardrobe to resemble how the executives dressed, rather than how the typical programmers and engineers dressed. The first few times I did this folks I worked with regularly quietly asked if I was interviewing elsewhere. Nope. But... When in meetings with folks from other teams, I noticed that I was being engaged as though I were the person in charge.

3) I got myself added to various cross-team internal e-mail lists. This let me both get a better idea of the state of projects my team was contributing to, and gave me a voice visible to these other teams when I made suggestions on how they could better use our existing software, as well as how we could adapt our projects to better meet their needs. I suppose this actually added some real value. Oops...

 

[travelover]

..........
1. Go to HR.
.........

Been there, done that. HR is not there to help you.

 

[Brat]

ShortInSeattle and I are both retired HR professionals. Note what is common about our advise... think strategically and take ownership of your career.

HR's role is to see that the employer's personnel actions keep them out of litigation, establish HR processes (selection, hiring, compensation, fringe benefits) that support the employer's business goals. No, HR is not there to help individuals. That is a lawyer's job. From time to time HR will tell a manager 'don't do that' but usually they have already 'done that' and HR tries to put out the fire.

 

[steelyman]

From time to time HR will tell a manager 'don't do that' but usually they have already 'done that' and HR tries to put out the fire.

I can believe that! One time a guy started trying to get me fired and the HR guy put out that fire. How did he do that? He ignored the guy

 

[Brat]

Sometimes not responding is the best approach but you REALLY need to know the workforce dynamics. However, if you are a subordinate dealing with a difficult supervisor/manager always be proactive, never passive.

 

[MRG]

ShortInSeattle and I are both retired HR professionals. Note what is common about our advise... think strategically and take ownership of your career.

HR's role is to see that the employer's personnel actions keep them out of litigation, establish HR processes (selection, hiring, compensation, fringe benefits) that support the employer's business goals. No, HR is not there to help individuals. That is a lawyer's job. From time to time HR will tell a manager 'don't do that' but usually they have already 'done that' and HR tries to put out the fire.

+1

I was not HR, simply a manager who tried to make sure HR got the correct information. I've seen managers taken to the woodshed by HR, if they violated policy/legal documents.

Both of these posters are giving the correct advise. Neither one said your first move is to call HR. Please read their posts, both gave smart, very smart answers.

MRG

 

[steelyman]

Sometimes not responding is the best approach but you REALLY need to know the workforce dynamics. However, if you are a subordinate dealing with a difficult supervisor/manager always be proactive, never passive.

I understand. This HR man did understand the dynamics and I had long since established myself. I just kept right on working. The manager got fired.

I don't mean to sidetrack the thread.

 

[travelover]

.........No, HR is not there to help individuals. That is a lawyer's job. ..........

Bingo. You can consult a labor attorney without threatening a lawsuit, but at least the advice that you receive will be in your best interest.

 

[growing_older]

If the conversation had been instead something like "you recently got married, and I've heard you are interested in having children. Are you now less committed to your job than before you were married?", it would clearly be inappropriate and any action by the boss based on that assumption would probably be grounds for a lawsuit.

That's certainly true because marital status is a protected class in anti-discrimination laws. Financial independence or receipt of a stock option windfall is NOT similarly protected. Perhaps there is an indirect correlation with age (as age over 40 is a protected class) but you may have a very hard time making this connection stick.

The sudden change from stellar performer to problem employee without you being aware of any change is often indicative of a move to move you out, or at least document "problem" in preparation to moving you out. The fact that your manager changed in the last year is often highly correlated to such activities, but if it has really been a year they're being surprisingly slow about it. Are there any other corporate cost cutting, outsourcing or cleaning house initiatives that might have prompted this discussion?

 

[FreeAtLast]

I would assume the worse and conclude that they want you out. It does not matter why. Probably has nothing to do with your performance.

He acted inappropriately when discussing your company stock options and personal finances. He was probably trying to engage you in a conversation to extract further personal information.

It sounds like things might get bumpy and consulting with an attorney might be appropriate. Start documenting conversations and other unusual things that occur.

Don't assume that they want you gone tomorrow. They may need to keep you around for a while.

 

[gindie]

+1

Remember people don't leave companies, they leave supervisors.

-gauss

Actually, that's not always the case. I recently left a national company after 24 years of service because it had changed tremendously and I no longer had the desire to be under the new centralized management and policies that had taken over. I had absolutely no issue with my supervisor, in fact I only had contact with him a few times a year.

 

[Telly]

There are some managers of people out there who are really screwed up. They want to have the people who work for them, indebted to them. They want each of their reports to know that they owe their job to the big kahuna. They're sick.

I had the misfortune to be involved with one of them. I was independently successful, with a good track record. I kept my independence, and there was always some level of fencing going on with that boss. I made sure I grew ties into other areas of the company, which he discouraged his people from doing. My project went well and made $$$ for the company. And this boss always talked this success down. Instead of thinking that if someone who worked for him did well, that it would reflect well on him, he took the opposite view.

I don't think that deep down inside he was a "bad person", but for whatever reason, he always wanted to be in control of everything, maybe it fed his need to be wanted. But I didn't care what the reason was... you don't do that crap!
I ignored his suggestions on changes, on employing people, they were stupid. I handled any problem that came up in my area. I told him just a brief gloss-over of it after the fact, after it was solved.
If he reached for the steering wheel, I made a hard left and slid him over away from the wheel

The same thing has been happening in city government. A new big boss, who slowly gets rid of all department heads that he didn't hire. Hires in a new crowd. Gets rid of the best independent-thinking worker bees, to replace with his hired oh-we-owe-everything-to-you drones. Sickening.

In my many years of management, I saw many bad managers. And a few really good ones.

 

[eytonxav]

I've been a Director/Manager for three different mega-corps over my career and am dumbfounded over the approach this new manager took in your performance discussion. Sounds like he lacks some basic management training and the dos and don'ts of counseling employees. Like others have mentioned, I've seen other managers taken to the woodshed by HR for making inappropriate comments like yours did. I would definitely maintain a file of these discussions and do not hesitate to go to HR if the situation worsens.

 

[LazyErik]

I agree with most of the other posts. I think this conversation was designed to plant the seed and see if you would leave. I would make sure you have all your financial ducks in a row and ready to bail if you have to. It appears that you are in charge of when, how, and why you would leave. Make sure you do not make a hasty decision.

The lawyer in me says there are some major warning signs:
1) Do not use company computers for anything that is not allowed even though you may have been doing this for years. Stop all non work activities with company owned property. This includes your smart phone. (get rid of the nice ER forum app)
2) Read the employee manual just for "fun". Read any recent changes to the technology use section, and anything about performance evaluations. Then re-read any new changes or amendments.
3) Keep good records of when you are at work and anything that is said to you about your performance (not just comments from your boss). If you have to, keep a "work diary". Don't let anyone know you are doing this!
4) Watch for any hints or comments that they might be discriminating against you because of age, race, etc. (you know the protected classes).

There might be some lingering animosity here amongst some of the hire up managers/execs. I have seen in my career managers that are jealous about someone that exercised options when the getting was good (and didn't wait and get greedy like everyone else) and made a killing.

When you decide to bail, give them the two weeks (unless you are in an employment contract and then follow the contract explicitly). If they seem upset about the two weeks, make sure they know in the exit interview that one particular conversation with your manager is the reason you are leaving in such a fashion. This of course will make him look bad with the higher ups, but it is important that he doesn't think he can intimidate people that are under him. This is bad management.

Yes he most likely has access to all HR records, such as 401k balances, and option decisions. Usually managers do not have access to any medical insurance records (which are usually kept and managed in separate files which are only accessable to certain HR personnel so they can follow through on med insurance issues).

Nothing in the above mentioned post should be construed as legal advice. Really, if you have questions go to a employment attorney for State specific advice and any possible Federal violations.

Good Luck!

 

[martyp]

I don't know if this is the beginning of the end but it definitely is the beginning with a new supervisor. A few observations:

1. An employee shouldn't be surprised by anything that is discussed in an annual review. So if there are performance issues then these issues shouldn't go on for 4-5 months without any mention of it to the employee. So if you haven't received performance feedback regularly throughout the year then it is unfair to spring it on you for the first time at your annual review.

2. If you were promoted then a higher standard of performance should be expected. If you got glowing reviews last year you should expect more of a "meets expectations" this year. You do really need to know what the relative different expectations are between your old classification and your new classification. This should also have been discussed at the time of the review.

3. The fact that your new supervisor was present at your last review doesn't mean anything. He had just arrived and played no part in the content of the review. He was just observing the transition.

4. Discussing an employee's future plans is fair game but should be handled delicately so nothing inappropriate is asked by the supervisor. There could be some areas that are illegal to discuss but retirement shouldn't be one of them. I don't know how it works in private industry but it sounds a little creepy for your supervisor to know and be discussing your financial transactions about your stock options.

 

[MRG]

You've received a tremendous amout of good information from the board. One thing that was not mentioned.

Did new supervisor get the same option grants you did? Perhaps you're dealing with his jealousy?

Just a thought, as I never have seen such bizarre behavior.

Good luck,

MRG