Where to move, and why?

[Shawn]

For property tax, prop 13 keeps it pretty low for most long term residents. If you don't have much taxable income, you won't pay any state taxes. Sales taxes are low if you don't buy a lot of stuff.

I've lived in my San Francisco Bay Area home for almost 16 years and pay $3.3K/yr in property taxes. This is not cheap for a small 1200 sqft fixer upper that is 50+ years old. And this is in a relatively inexpensive area with a modest property tax base (i.e., lower home prices).

I am still working. Currently, I pay about $20K/yr in various state/local taxes. When I retire and begin my DB pension, I'll pay $8-10K/yr in state/local taxes. This is not trivial. This is on par with my expected general living expenses (not counting veterinary bills and other large one-time expenses).

This doesn't mean I will move. The weather is nice where I live and there are a lot of opportunities for outdoor pursuits. My town/city is pleasant. Low crime. Good regional location. Although it's changed a lot over the last 20 years, it still has a small-town feel. The mayor once started a conversation with me when we were both in the bank.

But the cost of living is very high. The taxes alone are a strong motivator to move. I am considering lower cost western states that offer the criteria I seek. This includes Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, Utah, and Wyoming (plus a few other states).

 

[Surewhitey]

Anyone have insight on Belize?

Yeah, a little. Vacationing is better than living IMO. We have two sets of friends who in the past 6 months have differing stories, but the same outcome...trouble.

One couple from Napa, CA lived in Corozal and apparently they had to renew their visas every month! $100 each / month! Not to mention the pain / time to do it. Their opinion was that the government has gotten too accustomed to sticking it to the gringos for revenue, therefore, not many move there. They are now living in Puerto Morelos (an awesome place, btw).

The other friends are 6 year gringos (from Canada) living in Playa del Carmen and they got the shaft handed to them on the border when they were going to visit friends there. They were basically forced to pay a hefty sum after letting 5 of the party go through with no problem and the last they basically said if you want to go through, you gotta pay up.

We have only crossed once a couple years ago with no problem, but I hear it has recently become the way of the above stories. There are nice things there such as the jungle raft tours and the Cayes (Caulker was nice), but Belize city is like one of the most dangerous cities in the world and it was a dirty place to boot.

My $.02

 

[TOOLMAN]

We have been in the "City of Kings" (Lima,Peru) for the past 11 years and are very happy here.



.

Can you get by speaking only English in Lima?

 

[NYEXPAT]

Can you get by speaking only English in Lima?

I would be lying if I said yes. I do because both my wife and 8 y/o are bilingual and everybody else wants to impress me with how little English they know.

I can't have a conversation but have a rather large vocabulary which is sometimes useless if your pronunciation is off.

(EX). In burger king you have two types of beef Traditional (American) and Bravo (Peruvian spices). You must say "Whopper Carne Traditional" . In eleven years, not once has anyone understood those three simple words. Each time I must follow up with. "Tu tengo dos typos de hamburguesa correcto? Me no gusta Bravo, yo quiero otra typo"!

and they say in Spanish "Oh, you want carne traditional?!

 

[NYEXPAT]

I'm interested in solo responses too, as my relocation would be sans spouse/kids. Thanks Marita40 for posing the question.

I moved to Peru solo 11 years ago. But it does not work as now I am married and have more kids and family then I left behind!

 

[Jack_Pine]

We are going to snowbird.

Our southern place is just south of imoldernu's place in central fl. Gated community with lots of opens space. It has a indoor pool as well as outdoor which we like.

The northern place is in Wisconsin on acreage. Love it there. As we get older and slow down we will probably move to FL permanently. No kids so it can be wherever.

 

[photoguy]

I've lived in my San Francisco Bay Area home for almost 16 years and pay $3.3K/yr in property taxes. This is not cheap for a small 1200 sqft fixer upper that is 50+ years old. And this is in a relatively inexpensive area with a modest property tax base (i.e., lower home prices).

That's a great tax rate. I'm in san jose and pay nearly 8k for a 1200 sq ft home built in the 30s (bought in 2004). The houses on my street are so old, the original deed states that it can't be used as a saloon nor can people of color live there except as servants. The younger couple that is going to buy the house from us will pay nearly 10k.

But the cost of living is very high. The taxes alone are a strong motivator to move. I am considering lower cost western states that offer the criteria I seek. This includes Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, Utah, and Wyoming (plus a few other states).

I made a spreadsheet to track taxes and used turbotax to calculate our state tax burden in multiple western states. To my surprise, CA was lower than most states I considered (e.g., CO, NM, OR) and wasn't materially (to us) higher than states with no tax. Of course, this depends on one's specific circumstances and we are targeting modest incomes (below ACA thresholds).

That said we are planning on leaving the bay area to explore living in other locations. We might come back to california, but it would have to be in smaller towns where the housing price is more reasonable.

 

[TOOLMAN]

I would be lying if I said yes. I do because both my wife and 8 y/o are bilingual and everybody else wants to impress me with how little English they know.



I can't have a conversation but have a rather large vocabulary which is sometimes useless if your pronunciation is off.



(EX). In burger king you have two types of beef Traditional (American) and Bravo (Peruvian spices). You must say "Whopper Carne Traditional" . In eleven years, not once has anyone understood those three simple words. Each time I must follow up with. "Tu tengo dos typos de hamburguesa correcto? Me no gusta Bravo, yo quiero otra typo"!



and they say in Spanish "Oh, you want carne traditional?!

Thanks for your insight.

 

[Shawn]

I made a spreadsheet to track taxes and used turbotax to calculate our state tax burden in multiple western states. To my surprise, CA was lower than most states I considered (e.g., CO, NM, OR) and wasn't materially (to us) higher than states with no tax. Of course, this depends on one's specific circumstances and we are targeting modest incomes (below ACA thresholds).

Yes, income taxes for people in the lower tax brackets (e.g., below ACA thresholds) is often modest regardless of the state. This can be true for many early retirees who rely primarily on interest/dividends, but not true for those with good-sized pensions. CA fully taxes pension income, including government pensions (CA is like most states in that it does not tax SS).

However, I believe your current $8K property tax bill in San Jose is going to be substantially lower for a similar house in CO, for example. I grew up in Denver and often use CO as a metric. You are likely to save thousands of dollars.

Personally, my state/local taxes in retirement will be cut in half if I move from CA to CO, and cut up to 75% if I move to a no income tax state like Wyoming. Other costs will be lower too, such as the cost of housing. A few costs will be higher, but I estimate potential savings of $10K-$15K/yr by moving from CA to a low-tax/low-cost state. This includes investment earnings on the savings in housing costs. So I ask myself if it is worth an extra $10K-$15K/yr to remain in CA. This is the cost factor.

There is a reason Kiplinger refers to CA as "a retiree's tax nightmare" and to WY as "a tax haven for cowboys and retirees alike." This doesn't mean everyone in CA should move to WY. But taxes and cost of living should be part of the equation. And absolutely, it depends on one's own circumstances. Incidentally, the Kiplinger article considers OR to be tax unfriendly to retirees, NM average, and CO above average.

 

[BTravlin]

+1 on the area. We're over here in Playa del Carmen. Cozumel is a cleaner version of us and have the bike path around the island too. We have often said we'd like to come over there (if only our friends here would too).

The only negative I saw over there is the cruise ships every stinkin' day, but then you just stay away from that part of town, right?

We just found $90 rt air to Tuxtla (Chiapas) from Cancun. We'll definitely be going back there and do some shopping / sights...

Hola! We like to come to Playa when we're in the mood for a little more action than what's available here on la isla. And, yes, the cruise ship passengers can be a little overwhelming at times but you learn to work around that. All ships are gone by 6 PM and then we get our town back.

Will have to try Chiapas. Dove with a guide today who is from Chiapis

 

[BTravlin]

The cruise ship passengers have a prescribed route with only the adventurous going beyond. So yes it is easy to avoid them when in port.

(From PV all year long except summer.)

Yeah, many of the cruisers never get past Carlos & Charlie's, Senor Frogs or Margaritaville. They stumble back to their ship with their balloon hats on after a day of drinking and think they've seen Mexico.

 

[ABQ2015]

So bottom line is, I'm not sure what to do...I don"t know anyone in NM, but then I only have 2 close friends here & there's no state tax. As you can tell by my rambling, I'm in a quandary. Oh, did I say I hate the maintenance of home ownership?

Maybe you should rent a furnished place in Albuquerque or Santa Fe for a couple of months through VRBO before you sell your house in Texas. You would be centrally located and could explore the state and get a better idea whether you want to relocate. September and October are the nicest months to visit. Albuquerque has the best medical facilities and the most specialists in the state. Las Cruces is probably second. While people in New Mexico are generally considered friendly, I have heard newcomers complain that it is hard to form close friendships here.

Lots of Texans vacation or have second homes in Ruidoso and Red River. Ruidoso is nice in the summer and has a casino nearby - probably more affordable than Red River. Spending a few months a year in New Mexico might be a good alternative to relocation.

My brother's property taxes near Katy are about the same as my state income tax and property tax combined in Albuquerque. But my brother in Abilene has very low property taxes.

 

[Rustic23]

Waterwood Tx. Waterwood WIA - Home

The good, the bad, the ugly. That describes Waterwood. We find it to be the good. It is not a village. It was a master planned community of the 1980's that did not go as planned. If you wan the amenities of a subdivision without all the people, Waterwood is your place. Lake Livingston Waterwood Real Estate is a local realtor. You can see homes at $50,000 and up, and there are interior lots at less than $5,000. Homes and lots on the lake are expensive. Well by our standards. 2,700 sq.ft, on acre lot, $300,000.

Rural living, small town atmosphere, 15-30 min to shopping, one hour to Houston, affordable living. Huntsville movies $3 for seniors! First run movies, 3d, $4 I think. Outrageous!

 

[Cassie]

Maybe you should rent a furnished place in Albuquerque or Santa Fe for a couple of months through VRBO before you sell your house in Texas. You would be centrally located and could explore the state and get a better idea whether you want to relocate. September and October are the nicest months to visit. Albuquerque has the best medical facilities and the most specialists in the state. Las Cruces is probably second. While people in New Mexico are generally considered friendly, I have heard newcomers complain that it is hard to form close friendships here.

Lots of Texans vacation or have second homes in Ruidoso and Red River. Ruidoso is nice in the summer and has a casino nearby - probably more affordable than Red River. Spending a few months a year in New Mexico might be a good alternative to relocation.

My brother's property taxes near Katy are about the same as my state income tax and property tax combined in Albuquerque. But my brother in Abilene has very low property taxes.

Thank so much for the feedback, I will check out VRBO. When researching I visited a few times, looked at Belen, Los Lunas...considered Deming and Las Cruces. Ended up focusing on ABQ....what areas are best?

 

[imoldernu]

Quick thought for any frugaleers who may be watching...

Campgrounds typically allow 185 days per year. Here's what we did for the first 9 years, when we weren't sure we could make it.
6 Months in Illinois - 6 months in Florida. Florida residence wasn't a campground, but very inexpensive.

The Illinois campground has counterparts in many states... where you buy your lot and Park Model home/trailer, and pay an annual fee, and can live there for 1/2 of the year.
Here are the details for our campground "home":
Housing... Park Model Trailer (400 sf, add-a-room, 400 sf, deck 400s.f. and two 8'x8' storage sheds.
Lot... 65' x110' frontage on one of 7 small lakes (27 acres) trolling motors only.
County Taxes $600, Insurance $500. You own the property.
The campground is owned by the property owners. 6000 sites.
Annual dues of $1200 covers water, sewer (12 mo/yr.) and access to all facilities.
Open year round, for summer and winter sports... winter snowmobiling and ice fishing.
Facilities:
7 lakes, 14 miles of hiking trail
41 miles of nicely paved roads
Large nature areas
2 Olympic size swimming pools
8 tennis courts... four mixed courts basket ball, pickle ball, roller hockey etc.
3 large Family meeting/event centers
Large general store, restaurants and a Pizza Hut.
True Value Hardware and lumber yard
Gas Station, Propane station
Bank, Laundr0mat, Bait shop
Nature Center for kids
Large pavilion for concerts, dances... summer weekly major events.
34 member security force (Gated Community).
Tie in with an excellent 18 hole golf course... next door to campground.

Despite the size, the campground is for most persons, a weekend/vacation retreat, and extremely quiet and peaceful. Located in a large black oak forest in a rural county and a town population of 200.

Back to price... $15,000 would buy a nice lot with a used parkmodel and deck... Only a few places over $60K to $100K (mostly lakeside or brand new).
Single lots from $3500 up.

Our first neighbors (when we moved there in 1990) lived the other six months in similar parks in the Tip of Texas, Iowa, Arizona, Florida.

We loved living there... still own it, still use it in the summer. . The low cost made our ER very pleasant and easy and paved the way for security in our later years. Most of this was covered here, http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f27/sharing-23-years-of-frugal-retirement-62251.html , but thought to share the other part of our retirement (other than Florida).

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Imoldenu, you make a good case for park model living. I have been looking online at park models that are designed to look like tiny home / cabins -

How a talented architect makes an RV look like a charming cabin in the woods : TreeHugger

I like the idea of having a very small environmental foot print, and living some place where we could be outside much of the time, and not need a big inside space to take care of.

Here is a related article on people living in Pismo Dunes Senior Park, “Pismodise":

"... finding ways to keep people living on their own, socially engaged, healthy, happy, and out of care isn’t just a personal or family goal—it’s a national priority. Among seniors’ living options, there is one we overlook: mobile homes. Time-tested, inhabited by no fewer than three million seniors already, but notoriously underloved, manufactured-homes can provide organic communities and a lifestyle that is healthy, affordable, and green, and not incidentally, fun."

"Louise tells me that some residents of Pismo Dunes survive on less than $900 a month, while others have monthly incomes of $15,000. "

From: Senior Living: How the trailer Park Could Save Us All

Senior Living: How the Trailer Park Could Save Us All - Mind & Body – Utne Reader

 

[aja8888]

Waterwood Tx. Waterwood WIA - Home

The good, the bad, the ugly. That describes Waterwood. We find it to be the good. It is not a village. It was a master planned community of the 1980's that did not go as planned. If you wan the amenities of a subdivision without all the people, Waterwood is your place. Lake Livingston Waterwood Real Estate is a local realtor. You can see homes at $50,000 and up, and there are interior lots at less than $5,000. Homes and lots on the lake are expensive. Well by our standards. 2,700 sq.ft, on acre lot, $300,000.

Rural living, small town atmosphere, 15-30 min to shopping, one hour to Houston, affordable living. Huntsville movies $3 for seniors! First run movies, 3d, $4 I think. Outrageous!

Waterwood was one of a few communities that were built in anticipation of the greater Houston expansion moving far north (maybe someday but right now it is creeping into Magnolia.)

 

[robnplunder]

BUT the thing that I will not compromise on at this stage in my early retirement years is the ability to walk all of my 100+ rounds of golf each year. That seems to rule out almost all of Florida.

Why would it rule out all of Florida? Are the courses built in such way to discourage walking?

 

[Khan]

Probably way too hot in Summer.

 

[dm]

We plan on giving Florida a try. We are putting our house up for sale soon. Hopefully we will be able to sell it in a reasonable time and then we plan to rent for a while in the Punta Gorda area. Hopefully after renting for a while we will be able to narrow down the area a little better.

 

[LinCella]

Forget The Villages if you're a Democrat:

The Villages' Democrats Find Second-Rate Citizenry In A Billionaire's Republican Kingdom

According to this article anyway

 

[LinCella]

I'm on the Peninsula of the Bay Area, probably the most expensive area in California. Unfortunately I don't own where I live and I can't buy here. Just waiting until I can figure out where to go. Single, not a huge amount of money, but enough. Not used to snow or heat. Want a slower pace but with amenities like good markets and libraries. Have no clue where that is and wonder if I would move where I know no one.

 

[jjquantz]

Why would it rule out all of Florida? Are the courses built in such way to discourage walking?

The saddest thing about golf in America is that many golf courses, and especially in Florida, DON'T ALLOW WALKING. It has nothing to do with the way the courses are built, it has to do with the expectations that Americans bring to the course. I have contacted several planned developments in Florida and inquired about looking at homes. I always ask if the golf course allows golfers to walk and carry their clubs. About the best one can hope for are rules that allow walking after 3:00 PM, or "in the afternoon". I have yet to visit any of these places.

 

[wrigley]

On my Costa Rica trip in Jan, I met a couple who lived in "the village" and I heard all about it. Sounds like a good place to retire.

I live in NE Florida. My uncle moved to the Villages after a 30+ year career as a Chicago cop. He was extremely active in sports and loved the weather. I work with a few middle aged men that play softball on a regular basis and are always traveling south to the Villages for weekend tournaments. They say the Villages are a non-stop party!!!!!

I also heard (and this is not coming from me) that the Villages has one of the highest STD rates in all of Florida. They REALLY love to party there!

Mike

 

[wrigley]

Why would it rule out all of Florida? Are the courses built in such way to discourage walking?

Most courses require you to ride prior to noon.

Mike