Alternative to Divorce?

[bright eyed]

I think Rustic was just sharing Rustic's priorities, learned via a friend - if we leave it a that, can we go back to our dysfunctional OP's crafty avoidance of any of our observations and/or advice?

 

[Rustic23]

I thought the first post was clear. I believe the point of the advice, as given to me, was more where you place work vs family. It was not to say, as I said in my second post, and now in a third, one must believe in God. I said, you should come to terms with what you believe. If you don't believe, then it really does not make any difference where you place religion, does it.

I did not intend to turn this into a religious discussion. The advice was as it was given me. When I was told this, I thought about it, and made my own decisions. The placement of Religion made since simply because the advice was coached in time periods. Eternity, Time width Family, Other. If you believe there is no after life, then eternity just does not matter.

In the position of the OP, I believe he has put Money i.e. Work above Family. I don't have a clue where he put religion, and I don't think it is Germain to this discussion.

To turn my post into 'I am telling someone they must believe' is a gross miss interpretation. To say that Religion should not be first because some religious fanatics go over board is also wrong. Lets face it there are fanatics that put Family first, to the point that killing their family makes since to them. So therefore Family first is wrong. (Stupid statement) Put Work first to the exclusion of all else that is the way to go (Stupid statement) Put Religion first to the exclusion of all else. (Just as STUPID) IMHO

So lighten up!

 

[Kronk]

Seems to me that the OP needs a break. Take time off. Say a year, or two, or three. He indicated that he was willing to become a house husband for three years while his wife worked and then reevaluate things then. That implies to me that he'd still be able to get roughly the same type of job even after a few years off. And it seems like they've got enough money stashed away that they could make it through a few years even without either spouse working. Maybe his company would even grant a leave of absence if he said he needed a break for health reasons.

Sometimes it seems like this board is too willing to tell people just to suck it up for 5-10 years to get to early retirement. But if this job is poisoning his personal life and his health, I don't see how he can go on without something snapping. At this rate he might be dead in ten years.

Time away would give more perspective on the problem. Are there significant marital issues, or is it the stress of the 100 mile commute and the high-stress job that is exacerbating relatively minor issues?

 

[RetireeRobert]

To turn my post into 'I am telling someone they must believe' is a gross miss interpretation. To say that Religion should not be first because some religious fanatics go over board is also wrong.

It is interesting, isn't it, that to just even even mention the topic of "religious beliefs" (without even saying anyone "must" believe a certain way), seems to immediately inflame some people. The barest mention seems to bring out some downright hostile attitudes that are dripping with biases and preconceived negative opinions---as evidenced by immediate charges about "religious fanatics", etc.

It does make one wonder what some people think most "religions" are. And what some people think are the precepts of most "religions" which would lead a person to do bad things as opposed to good things in relation to their families.

But back to the topic at hand---OP came here asking for thoughts and advice, and I would repeat my advice to him----get some professional counselling, and try to get his family involved in counselling as well.

And if that counselling is "secular" as opposed to "religious", that is fine. Just get it.

 

[kombat]

Who said anything about "religious fanatics"?

Sorry... didn't mean to offend. I simply meant that I would consider someone who prioritizes their imaginary friend above their own (very real) spouse and children qualifies as a "fanatic."

My point wasn't about fanaticism anyway. It was about the inability for a human to willfully "choose" what they believe. You can't. You either believe something or you don't.

 

[FinanceDude]

It is interesting, isn't it, that to just even even mention the topic of "religious beliefs" (without even saying anyone "must" believe a certain way), seems to immediately inflame some people. The barest mention seems to bring out some downright hostile attitudes that are dripping with biases and preconceived negative opinions---as evidenced by immediate charges about "religious fanatics", etc.

It does make one wonder what some people think most "religions" are. And what some people think are the precepts of most "religions" which would lead a person to do bad things as opposed to good things in relation to their families.

But back to the topic at hand---OP came here asking for thoughts and advice, and I would repeat my advice to him----get some professional counselling, and try to get his family involved in counselling as well.

And if that counselling is "secular" as opposed to "religious", that is fine. Just get it.

Good thing the USA wasn't founded because anyone was trying to escape religious persecution..........more and more I think the USA is heading toward a largely to an atheist state.

They're removing the Pledge of Allegiance from classrooms, etc......one day I expect the words "In God We Trust" to be removed from our money.........

 

[RetireeRobert]

. It was about the inability for a human to willfully "choose" what they believe. You can't. You either believe something or you don't.

We need a new thread on "Does free will exist", or "Is belief a choice".

(Reminds me of the most interesting "bit" I read in the novel "East of Eden" by Steinbeck.)

 

[FinanceDude]

We need a new thread on "Does free will exist", or "Is belief a choice".

(Reminds me of the most interesting "bit" I read in the novel "East of Eden" by Steinbeck.)

I think your beliefs come from your upbringing, and are ingrained in you by the time you go away to make your mark in the world.

I think commonly held beliefs (many of which are outdated or flat-out wrong) hold most people back.

Think about all the buzzwords about "paradigm shift" we heard in the 90's..........maybe they found out how HARD it IS to shift a paradigm...........

 

[Razor]

Good thing the USA wasn't founded because anyone was trying to escape religious persecution..........
quote]
The USA was founded to escape taxes. It didn't work.

 

[Razor]

They're removing the Pledge of Allegiance from classrooms, etc......one day I expect the words "In God We Trust" to be removed from our money.........

And what would be wrong with that and who would it hurt?
No one.
To put religion before your family is wrong and I refuse to do it.

 

[unclemick]

Five packages of Winn Dixie Green Onion sausage, 10 cans of Blue Runner New Orleans style red beans and my favorite barmaid from 1974, now retired.

No marriage - just visiting.



This thread is still going on??

My advice - think about kayaks!

heh heh heh - nice little trip - beat the bad weather - back in time for snow. Bay St Louis, Slidell, New Orleans and Covington are still there.

And a King Cake - natch cause it's Mardis Gras season. The real kind - with the baby in it.

 

[FinanceDude]

And what would be wrong with that and who would it hurt?
No one.
To put religion before your family is wrong and I refuse to do it.

So, the Pledge of Allegiance is bad, and making kids say it all those years was violating their personal freedoms?

How is that putting God before family? Heck, you can't even get folks at sporting events to take off their baseball caps when the American flag goes by.............

 

[Razor]

So, the Pledge of Allegiance is bad, and making kids say it all those years was violating their personal freedoms?

.............

It's not violating anything because they had a choice to say it or not. When I was growing up there were several kids that did not say the pledge because it was against their religious beliefs. You see they put their religion before everything else.
It's about freedom for everyone not just those that have the same beliefs as you do. Freedom from religion is just as important as freedom of religion.

 

[mexmeme]

Good thing the USA wasn't founded because anyone was trying to escape religious persecution..........more and more I think the USA is heading toward a largely to an atheist state.

They're removing the Pledge of Allegiance from classrooms, etc......one day I expect the words "In God We Trust" to be removed from our money.........

And that is bad how?

 

[unclemick]

1954 - God had absolutely nothing to do with it - Congress wanted to keep those Commies out of the classroom and keep me alert ready to defend America with my Red Ryder BB gun - in between duck and cover drills now that the evil Ruskies had the H bomb.

My Father being a Democrat suspected a Republican plot - he just couldn't put his finger on the conspiracy.

heh heh heh - I had no problem reciting it either way - starting in 1948.

 

[Wags]

DYAN CANNON!?!?!? Whoa.. NELLIE! I KNOW this song for some reason.. but I don't think I ever saw this film or clip.

I don't know if this story of a nasty cheatin' DAWG is 'appropriate' to the context, Wags, my friend.. Willie's guitar may be talkin' but his A$$ is what needs to do some 'splainin. (Amy Irving .. KEEE-rist... must be the pot.) Hey.. he done busted up a 17-yr. marriage over co-star Amy (not Dyan) in real life . Men. Go figure!

[Amy made out Ok to the tune of 9 figures with Steven, so I ain't cryin' fer her, eggzackly. What happened to the other real 17+yr. Mrs. Nelson by the way side? What's the second side to THAT story?]

Willie 'n' wives are apparently not the most felicitous of combinations.

Yes, you are right Willie does like the ladies and he does like to blow some smoke (hemp) but if you listen to the video clip one does have to admit that he makes the guitar talk.

Here's Willie and Julio
YouTube - To all the girls

The movie clip was from the "Honeysuckle Rose" movie. Here is another video clip/song "Angel flying too close to the ground" from Honeysuckle Rose.
YouTube - Willie Nelson, Angel flying too close to the ground

You know Ms. Cannon was quite a looker in the video she was definitely a good looking lady.

GOD BLESS

 

[bright eyed]

Five packages of Winn Dixie Green Onion sausage, 10 cans of Blue Runner New Orleans style red beans and my favorite barmaid from 1974, now retired.

No marriage - just visiting.



This thread is still going on??

My advice - think about kayaks!

heh heh heh - nice little trip - beat the bad weather - back in time for snow. Bay St Louis, Slidell, New Orleans and Covington are still there.

And a King Cake - natch cause it's Mardis Gras season. The real kind - with the baby in it.

i wouldn't be surprised if unclemick was typing from a VERY smoky room...he hehe and perhaps listening to Wags' friend willy nelson...

 

[beowulf]

Here is some information from an unbiased source (referenced below):

3. PROJECTION/PREDICTION. This is the Census Bureau's often-cited "50%" rate, the proportion of marriages taking place right now that will eventually divorce, which has since been revised downward to roughly 43% by the National Center for Health Statistics but was moved back up to around 50% by the Census Bureau in 2002, with even more ifs ands and buts than usual. Most recently, according to the New York Times, it has been revised downward to just over 40%.

Here is a good stats page: Divorce Rates - Divorce Statistics Collection

It essentially shows you can manipulate numbers to say and mean anything. I have no idea what the truth is, but the number is way too high.

 

[P.S.]

Hey, HK1970:

a very 30's member here, thought I would post one last time on this thread.

in addition to counselling (which really seems almost necessary in your situation given your postings POV), I would recommend strongly considering volunteering with some underprivileged people. Even just 1 h a week. I know you're really busy, but helping others is an amazing way to realize your own gifts and your blessings.

Realize as in not only reach a cognitive state of, but to actualize or manifest.

Sometimes getting caught up in the very real rat race hinders our ability to see what is most precious about life. It's tragic when we come to face this truth when it is too late.

Sometimes living .... in the realization that this week may be our last, or that next month our spouse or child could die, can help temper our impatience, tempestuousness, bitterness, and cynicism.

It is possible to live, to carry out our lives, and to work each day with a very long term goal in view, yet moderated by an understanding of our own mortality and of those that we love.

 

[HK1970]

Well, I think we have come to a mutual agreement, at least temporarily. Some of the thoughts and ideas expressed by people on this forum were definitely in my head when I presented my plan to my DW. Two things really stated by multiple people on the board really resonated with me. First, were the many people who said that raising kids was her ‘plan’ and I should respect that. Countering that thought was the point of view of many who said my 'work related stressors' are causing the problem (along with an ambitious ER plan). Such thoughts were probably best summarized by Caroline, who said ‘the golden hand cuffs are mine alone to wear and mine alone to throw off’. The sentence has been running through my mind since she wrote it (thank you again Caroline). These two thoughts in mind, I presented to her my plan:

I unlock the golden handcuffs and stop working. We invest all of our money in Treasuries or some other stable interest bearing investment. We would pull out all of the interest earnings from the Treasuries, plus another $20k or so to maintain our current standard of living and adjust the number upward for inflation (I factored in 3% annually). We would run out of money when I am 58 and we will worry about it at that time. This will allow her to continue to stay home and raise the kids. It will allow me to do the same and to recuperate. We would be able to maintain our current standard of living. From my point of view, I have been the sole provider for the family for the last 10 years and because of my working and her budgeting, another approximately 20 years was available with no one working. Essentially then I told her, I was working now to support us in old age… not for our current expenses, not for the kids, but for a time far into the future when the kids are long gone with families of their own. I told her I wanted to go to counseling to make sure my head was on straight.

She didn’t like the plan. She didn’t totally hate but it just felt ‘wrong’ to her to leave this job with the money I am pulling down. We discussed (again) many of the ‘Monday night’ type of events that have happened in our relationship. She acknowledged that she been focused more so on the kids and not so much on us. I acknowledged that I should have been more demanding about ‘us time’ together instead of just letting her go off with the kids. I also acknowledged that I should have been more forthcoming about how much my job blows as well (though I feel like I am constantly talking about this, I have never actually presented a plan that had me just walking away).

She says we will be available to go out and blow off steam together in the future and that there will be someone here to watch the kids so that we can have our time together. In a nutshell, there will be plenty of 'us' time. She has already arranged a date for this weekend.

She insisted that I do NOT go to counseling, saying that everything will be normal in the future. She doesn't want to go and she doesn't want me to go either. I had to wonder if she doesn’t want a male therapist telling her how she should go back to work or a female therapist (by default a working woman) telling her the same thing? For now, I suppose it doesn’t matter.

So I’m still wearing the golden handcuffs, but they don’t feel quite as tight when there is someone to help make me forget they are there… even if just for a few hours. We’ve had these conversations in the past and she’s made promises but I’ve never painted the picture of what we look like with my golden cuffs removed. I hope she lives by her word. I’ll live by mine and I’ll know that these cuffs can come off anytime. I was pleasantly surprised to see that now that I’m willing to let these cuffs go and I have a 'Treasury plan’ on the back burner, it seems like our plans are all of the sudden more congruent (though I still wish I could spend time actually raising our children on a daily basis).

Again, I thank you for all of the points of view expressed on this matter. Even some of the songs links were funny. It has been a tough time to say the least. There is still some healing that needs to occur. Happily, even after so many years of marriage, there appears to be plenty of love between us to make that happen.

One last thought… Love and feelings aside, I still stand amazed that no one in these forums has found a way to mitigate the inherent risks that develop between a married couple when one spouse works and one doesn’t. The working spouse is essentially taking on all of the risk, especially for a man. The courts in my state appear ready and willing to give 1/2 of my past ER efforts to my spouse and a very large chunk of my future efforts through child support and alimony. The court doesn’t care if 70% of my earnings were saved during the marriage. She would be entitled to a very large piece my future earnings as the state assumes that we both had earned the money and we both had been spending it like drunken sailors during our marriage. With all the talk on these boards about diversifying and risk/return relationships, I can’t believe this one isn’t really discussed. For married men out there in a position similar to mine (who are sole providers), it appears to me that the risk of loss from current family and marriage law trump all of the other ER risks combined (especially when ER is just about to start and assets and income are both high) and there seems to be no answer (suitcases of money and archipelagos aside). Had I realized this, I may have searched for a way to have a lifetime relationship with my spouse without involving the state. Maybe a prenup would have made some sense when we both got married right out of school. I may have never even put the plan into place had I realized this risk was here, but I started the plan a while ago and now I am only about 5 years away. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, I guess.

So the ER plan remains in place, at least for now. So are the risks… only now I feel like I understand them better, even if there isn’t much that can be done about them.

 

[TromboneAl]

Sounds like things are improving. Glad to hear it.

We invest all of our money in Treasuries or some other stable interest bearing investment.

Based on this statement, you need to start educating yourself about investing. Perhaps some books on tape for the commute.

 

[Martha]

One last thought… Love and feelings aside, I still stand amazed that no one in these forums has found a way to mitigate the inherent risks that develop between a married couple when one spouse works and one doesn’t. The working spouse is essentially taking on all of the risk, especially for a man. The courts in my state appear ready and willing to give 1/2 of my past ER efforts to my spouse and a very large chunk of my future efforts through child support and alimony.

I have stayed out of this discussion because I have no idea what is best for you and your family. But let me at least give you the flavor of another point of view on the fairness issue. Both spouses take a risk when they decide one should work and the other raise the children. What if they decided to divorce after 10 years of marriage? The stay at home spouse has been out of the work force for 10 years. Tough to get back in and most certainly the job will not pay what it would have paid if the stay at home spouse had been working for 10 years. The working spouse at least has the security of a job. In most, if not all states, if the stay at home spouse gets maintenance it will be only for a brief period of time. Permanent maintenance is now the rare exception and most often marriages have to last at least 10 years for there to be even temporary maintenance. I would say giving up a career to raise kids is a significant risk, as significant as the risk the working spouse takes.

The division of assets? The assumption generally is for a 50-50 division. You were partners in marriage, the partnership breaks up and you each get half. No one is presumed to be more or less deserving. Probably best all in all. We used to have fault based divorce and the ugliness and cost in general outweighed any good. (Though I sure can think of a couple of examples where I would have liked to see fault taken into consideration--spouse and child abuse as an example, but I digress.)

The kids? Both spouses may very well struggle to raise the kids. The former stay at home parent, who likely will have custody as the primary care giver, will be looking for a job and having to plan how to have the kids cared for when they aren't at school or when they are ill. I had single parent employees struggle with this all the time, rarely if ever taking vacation time because time off was taken to care for kids. The noncustodial parent will have the pain of paying child care costs but with little control over how the money is spent.

Nobody wins. No one who is part of it feels that it is fair. It isn't fair, life is not the same after a divorce.

 

[RunningBum]

Sounds like a productive talk. I hope it works out well for you.

I commend you on taking a lot of tough suggestions here without ever losing it in your posts.

I personally disagree with your wife telling you not to get counselling. I guess some people think it puts a "crazy" tag on you or something, but that's not the case. I've used counselling to get through a rough patch in my life, it helped a lot, mostly to put things in perspective.

Regarding the whole "state involvement" thing, whether or not you got married you'd still be on the hook for child support. I don't believe that would change at all. I'd think you wouldn't be hit with alimony but I remember that Lee Marvin "palimony" case and I don't know if that has held up, and in which states.

 

[RetireeRobert]

. With all the talk on these boards about diversifying and risk/return relationships, I can’t believe this one isn’t really discussed. For married men out there in a position similar to mine (who are sole providers), it appears to me that the risk of loss from current family and marriage law trump all of the other ER risks combined (especially when ER is just about to start and assets and income are both high) and there seems to be no answer (suitcases of money and archipelagos aside). Had I realized this, I may have searched for a way to have a lifetime relationship with my spouse without involving the state. [/quote]


Glad you and DW are resolving the more time together issue. Maybe that alone will go a long way in changing attitudes and perspectives for both of you. It is a real compromise on the part of DW to your stated needs. Hold onto this thought.

DW's fear of your getting counselling, period, is troublesome, if you want to assess risks. I would suggest you still get counselling for yourself and be upfront with DW about it.

There seems to be a whole mismatch of attitudes about money, what women's roles "should be", and men's roles "should be" between you and DW. And perhaps in attitudes about "marriage counselling". You and DW need to let each other know what your attitudes are in each of these areas--money, women's roles, men's roles. A counsellor can help immeasureably in this process.

Still sounds like you remain obsessed with your "state-brokered" marriage interfering with your (not your wife's) ER plans. That is, you fear for your ER.

There is *FEAR* percolating on both sides here.

You can take a step forward by getting counselling yourself and being upfront with DW about it. Hold onto the fact DW HAS made a compromise, she has taken a step forward, on the more time together issue.

You and DW need to deal with the FEAR in your changing relationship.

Both of you step forward again and face the fear.

Maybe you two can get to the point where you will want to renew your marriage vows, in front of God, family, friends, and the whole world.

Good things take hard work. They aren't free.

Time to go to work. Good luck.

 

[Bestwifeever]

I don't think any counselor would be telling anyone that they should or shouldn't be working, staying at home, etc., etc.--they help you figure out what it is YOU really want. Either together or alone. She may have self-esteem issues about getting back in the job market that you are not aware of. She surely perceives that you are resentful of supporting her financially today and in the future 100 percent.

If work only equals money and has no other value, and there is enough money coming in from your efforts, then there is no carrot to spur your spouse back to the work force and give up homemaking. Along the lines of "fix what you can" and no matter how much you hate your current job, you could find and demonstrate that there is some value in it (the social aspect of being with coworkers, some level of professional satisfaction in using your skills/talents, whatever!). That would affect both your wife AND your children (who probably are sensing that daddy hates working--which could affect their ambition when it comes to their own careers). Actually you might even find your own happiness increased if you could do this.

Your spouse may return to her profession or another one when her current situation is no longer satisfying to her (when the children no longer need her as much, for example, or when there is not enough money to fund your family's lifestyle).

Good luck--