Annuity thoughts

The company is North American Company the rate for the next year is 3%. I have most of our Monday in stock funds (60%) and bond funds (funds) but as I am retiring in 13 days I am trying to have a cash cushion of at least a year's expenses and preferably 2 years. My wife will still be working but at a salary that will just cover our expenses. So while we won't be withdrawing any money, our saving days are over. I am getting 0.8+% from our credit union for our cash now, but will reduce the cash by at least $30000 to be made up by the $30,000 I will leave in this annuity. If there is Abigail correction I may deploy this annuity into restock the equity portion (pun intended), but for this tax year I am definitely NOT cashing in- we are in the top tax bracket. Next year with me earning Zero we will drop down a few brackets. If we wait until my wife stops working we could be in an even lower bracket. Now in the vast scheme, $30,000 is a small percentage of our current portfolio (yay! Less than 1%), but I need to investigate the implications of adding more of our cash to this "safe" tax free(deferred) 3% earning vehicle.
 
I would look carefully at the fine print of the annuity before adding money to make sure there are no gotchas. That said, assuming there are no such issues the main reason you might have some misgivings about adding money have to do with taxation. You would want to call the insurer and ask what the tax treatment of withdrawals would be if you added money. For example, if you add 100k and subsequently withdraw 30k, is the first 30k considered to be all the "old" money with lots of taxable interest, ow would the 30k be a pro rata slice of the total 130k with lots of more recently contributed principal (non taxable)?
 
Oh, darn, I forgot....ETFs are free!!! :dance:

Forbes seems to think you have to pay a commission to buy ETFs. Please go away and straighten them out.

Are Commission-Free ETFs Really Cheaper? - Forbes
I don't know about you but I pay $9.99 per trade via my deep discount brokerage account (which happens to be E Trade, but Scottrade and Ameritrade charge about the same). If someone has been charging you more then demand a refund!

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what an "ETF pusher" is and how they would profit off of a $9.99 trade.
 
So my wife recently showed me that she has an annuity she bought 23 years ago -before we met- and definitely when neither of us knew anything. She did not know hat she was getting and we are still trying to sort out what have we got. I spoke to the company about it and want the wisdom of members here as well. This is a Flexible Premium Deferred Annuity non qualified-worth about $30000 right now with no Surrender penalty at this point. it earned 3% last year and is on a fixed interest rate. I forgot to ask if that 3% will continue. I was thinking of leaving it be as a part of our rainy day "cash" which is earning a decent interest for cash and at tax deferred. When my wife finally stops working then maybe we could cash it out at the lower tax rate we will be in then. Certainly no matter what we will wait uat least ntil next year when we drop our tax rate with me retiring in 2 weeks!!!
My questions are- does this make sense or am I missing some way the annuity people are continuing to take us for a ride? Also since it is a flexible premium, should I move more cash into it now?
Wow! These annuities are really great! :LOL:
You seem to have 3% tax deferred cash. Pretty good deal. Once your wife stops working, and your tax bracket drops, you'll be able to withdraw with minimal tax hit. Congrats to your wife (and her annuity salesperson) for making such an astute investment.
 
I'd keep the annuity and consider it part of fixed income and understand the withdrawal rules on the account. I have an old TIAA Traditional deferred annuity that is currently paying 4.38% (that's after fees). It's been compounding for 25 years. It has a lot of withdrawal options, two being either to turn it into an annuity or just pay it all out in equal amounts over 10 years
 
This is based on the assumption that stocks will go down from where they are at now. We've had a bull run alright but from 1990 - 1997 the S&P went 1,767 trading days without a 10% correction.
Sure, but OP has other fixed income products, likely, that he can reallocate to the market.

He may also be able to buy on margin at a lower rate than 3%.

My point is that this annuity is one of the later things OP should be liquidating to put more funds in the market, and for most people, it's OK to have a fixed income component to a portfolio, especially if it's paying 3% and you can cash it out at any time without penalty if rates go up. A fixed income product like that today is NOT something you want to cash in unless you have to.

Finally, this is a $30K product, not a $500K product. If OP is in his fifties and can save $2500/month, he can get to a reasonable (albeit conservative) portfolio allocation in a year by sticking all of his savings into the stock market.

I'd rather be FDIC insured than insured by a company and that fund that could get depleted in a worst case scenario. That's why an annuity is riskier than a CD. Again both the CD and the index annuity are like hiding from the market. Very conservative. Not investing.
A state reinsurance plan has never gone bankrupt, and the state is ultimately on the hook to bail out smaller annuity and life insurance balances such as this one. OK, if the policy was bought in Illinois, maybe there's some risk. OP needs to figure out which state is reinsuring his policy, and what the limits are on that. Most states offer an FDIC for bankrupt insurance companies-the only difference is that they are not the federal government and they do not have a printing press.
 
the state is ultimately on the hook to bail out smaller annuity and life insurance balances such as this one.

Bzzt! WRONG! Thank you for playing, Wanda do we have a lovely pating gift for our contestant?

State insurance guaranty funds are funded solely by assessments on healthy insurers doing business in that state. The state's balance sheet is never on the hook.
 
Bzzt! WRONG! Thank you for playing, Wanda do we have a lovely pating gift for our contestant?

State insurance guaranty funds are funded solely by assessments on healthy insurers doing business in that state. The state's balance sheet is never on the hook.

But a state insurance guaranty fund has never gone bankrupt. It's also created by state statute.

There would also be a great deal of political pressure to bail it out.

I'd treat this like an MBS issued by Fannie or Freddie pre-08. Technically there is a default risk... but if you stay below the limit, not really.

There really should be an FDIC for these annuities and whole life policies. Honestly I think the next time we have a systemic insurance crisis, we'll probably get one (obviously with reasonable account limits).
 
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But a state insurance guaranty fund has never gone bankrupt. It's also created by state statute.

There would also be a great deal of political pressure to bail it out.

I'd treat this like an MBS issued by Fannie or Freddie pre-08. Technically there is a default risk... but if you stay below the limit, not really.

Insurance regulation has in general worked pretty well, at least in terms of ensuring insurer solvency. However, that also means that this whole system is largely untested. This is different than agency MBS and other federal bailouts. Fannie and Freddie always had a line of credit from the US treasury, which made it fairly clear that these were entities with contingent support from the feddle gubmint. The megabanks are backed by the FDIC and there is a real strong reason to prevent a domino effect from wiping them all out. Nobody promises explicitly or implicitly to stand behind the insurers. The only thing backing the insurers is the state guaranty fund system and that is funded largely by the good will of the industry. These companies are run by rational people. If a really huge insurer blows up and causes a capital call on the insurers that is sufficiently large, they will simply decline. What they lose is the ability to sell insurance in that state. Lets pretend a large insurer blows up in Iowa, a favored domicile for many reasons. You really think a large insurer will care that much that they cannot sell policies in Iowa? Not so much.

When you buy insurance, always be careful who you play with. Insist on good credit quality/ratings, and if possible pick a large mutual insurer.
 
Bzzt! WRONG! Thank you for playing, Wanda do we have a lovely pating gift for our contestant?

State insurance guaranty funds are funded solely by assessments on healthy insurers doing business in that state. The state's balance sheet is never on the hook.
+1

I don't know how many people I've argued with about this same point.

If one insurance company goes bust, it isn't a big thing. The other companies will step in as they have repeatedly over the years. If we have a real meltdown and multiple companies go down, the remaining insurers will also be in difficult shape. They may not have the assets to go in on the bailout. In that situation, they may themselves be planning on exiting the market anyway so loss of the ability to market in the state won't have much value. Also, insurance companies can easily morph out new and exciting subsidiaries if needed. I don't know how tightly the market would be blocked against them.

With that sort of financial climate, the individual states will have many other things on their minds. State pensions and entitlements to large numbers of voters will certainly carry more weight than defaulting annuities that weren't the states' responsibility anyway.

As for credit quality, I had a level term life policy that I intentionally paid more for a company with a very high rating. Over the years the policy was sold three times. Each time the new company had a slightly lower rating.
 
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While I would be the first to agree that one shouldn't buy a new annuity, that is a very different decision from where someone has an old one and is deciding what to do with it. 3% minimum guarantees are no longer available and if that is what your contract have it is a valuable feature in this low interest rate environment.

TIAA-Traditional deferred annuity still has a 3% minimum and is currently paying me 4.38% interest after fees.
 
Insurance regulation has in general worked pretty well, at least in terms of ensuring insurer solvency. However, that also means that this whole system is largely untested. ....

I would suggest that 2006-2009 was a pretty good real-life test. As banks were falling like dominos, insurers were stressed but weathered the storm quite well with a few close calls (Lincoln, Hartford, etc). (AIG doesn't count because the AIG insurance companies weathered the storm fine, it was the yahoos at AIG corporate that screwed the pooch.) I'm hard pressed to think of any major insolvency since RBC standards were put in place in the mid 1990s.

Let's put it this way - if we end up in a situation where insurers are going insolvent, it seems likely to me that the economy would be so bad that insurer insolvencies would be a relatively minor worry.

In terms of default risk, there are a lot of corporate bonds that I would worry about before worrying about an insurer solvency.
 
I would suggest that 2006-2009 was a pretty good real-life test. As banks were falling like dominos, insurers were stressed but weathered the storm quite well with a few close calls (Lincoln, Hartford, etc). (AIG doesn't count because the AIG insurance companies weathered the storm fine, it was the yahoos at AIG corporate that screwed the pooch.) I'm hard pressed to think of any major insolvency since RBC standards were put in place in the mid 1990s.

Let's put it this way - if we end up in a situation where insurers are going insolvent, it seems likely to me that the economy would be so bad that insurer insolvencies would be a relatively minor worry.

In terms of default risk, there are a lot of corporate bonds that I would worry about before worrying about an insurer solvency.
I don't think we'll ever know what would have happened if all of the swaps held by AIG had been allowed to collapse along with AIG. They were only backed by AIG. The domino effect has not been played out. Next time, we might not have a US government as able and willing to absorb the financial cost of what was happening.

I think the risk of default is small. In the event of default, I believe that the likelihood of the insurance industry backing the "insured" policies is excellent. I just object to anyone assuming that the individual states or federal government would rush in to fill the void.
 
I don't think we'll ever know what would have happened if all of the swaps held by AIG had been allowed to collapse along with AIG. They were only backed by AIG. The domino effect has not been played out. Next time, we might not have a US government as able and willing to absorb the financial cost of what was happening.

I think the risk of default is small. In the event of default, I believe that the likelihood of the insurance industry backing the "insured" policies is excellent. I just object to anyone assuming that the individual states or federal government would rush in to fill the void.

I think it is likely that the swaps would have defaulted and caused systemic problems in the banking system, which is why the feds intervened. My point is that the swaps were not written by any of AIG's regulated insurance companies - they were written by AIG Financial Products (owned by AIG but not a regulated insurer) and the regulated insurers were all in good financial shape. In fact, it is the proceeds from the sale of many of those insurance companies that allowed AIG to repay the government.

I agree that the risk of default is small - IMO less than most high quality corporate bonds. I also agree that state or the feds would probably not fill the void, but what might happen is that the government might provide some funding for a bailout and then recover the cost through future assessments on the remaining insurers. IIRC that has happened in the past (pre-RBC).
 
I would suggest that 2006-2009 was a pretty good real-life test. As banks were falling like dominos, insurers were stressed but weathered the storm quite well with a few close calls (Lincoln, Hartford, etc). (AIG doesn't count because the AIG insurance companies weathered the storm fine, it was the yahoos at AIG corporate that screwed the pooch.) I'm hard pressed to think of any major insolvency since RBC standards were put in place in the mid 1990s.

Let's put it this way - if we end up in a situation where insurers are going insolvent, it seems likely to me that the economy would be so bad that insurer insolvencies would be a relatively minor worry.

In terms of default risk, there are a lot of corporate bonds that I would worry about before worrying about an insurer solvency.

I don't agree. Almost all the life insurance companies suffered huge losses in 2008, and 2009. While common stock holders and even many preferred shareholder suffered almost complete losses in hundreds of failed banks, senior debt holder of failed banks for the most part were unaffected. This was because of many factor including the existence of the FDIC fund,and TARP, plus fed actions.
Some of the biggest holders of bank senior debt are in insurance companies portfolio. Insurance companies losses would have been even worse but for those actions.

The bull market of the last 4.5 years has bailed out a lot of portfolio including both mine and the insurance companies.

The failure of a single large insurance company Executive Life in the 1991 stressed the state guaranty fund system to the limits. It resulted in many policy holder losing 20% of their money in California. Perhaps even more problematic for retiree was seeing their payments reduced and/or suspend while the court system worked out the details of the bankruptcy.

There is a reason that most (perhaps all states) prohibit insurance companies from a making any mention of the guaranty fund in their marketing literature. It provides adequate protection for a single insurance company going bust due to incompetent or reckless behavior by management. It does nothing to cushion the consequences of systemic failure in the industry.

I figure the insurance industry is one black swan event away from some deep dodo.
 
I don't agree. Almost all the life insurance companies suffered huge losses in 2008, and 2009. While common stock holders and even many preferred shareholder suffered almost complete losses in hundreds of failed banks, senior debt holder of failed banks for the most part were unaffected. This was because of many factor including the existence of the FDIC fund,and TARP, plus fed actions.
Some of the biggest holders of bank senior debt are in insurance companies portfolio. Insurance companies losses would have been even worse but for those actions.

The bull market of the last 4.5 years has bailed out a lot of portfolio including both mine and the insurance companies.

The failure of a single large insurance company Executive Life in the 1991 stressed the state guaranty fund system to the limits. It resulted in many policy holder losing 20% of their money in California. Perhaps even more problematic for retiree was seeing their payments reduced and/or suspend while the court system worked out the details of the bankruptcy.

There is a reason that most (perhaps all states) prohibit insurance companies from a making any mention of the guaranty fund in their marketing literature. It provides adequate protection for a single insurance company going bust due to incompetent or reckless behavior by management. It does nothing to cushion the consequences of systemic failure in the industry.

I figure the insurance industry is one black swan event away from some deep dodo.
Yes. Bottom line is annuities have more risk than a CD.

The irony is that the big market crash that annuities are supposed to protect you from is the same market crash that might crash the state insurance guarantee fund. So what good is that guarantee?
 
I don't agree. Almost all the life insurance companies suffered huge losses in 2008, and 2009. While common stock holders and even many preferred shareholder suffered almost complete losses in hundreds of failed banks, senior debt holder of failed banks for the most part were unaffected. This was because of many factor including the existence of the FDIC fund,and TARP, plus fed actions.
Some of the biggest holders of bank senior debt are in insurance companies portfolio. Insurance companies losses would have been even worse but for those actions.

The bull market of the last 4.5 years has bailed out a lot of portfolio including both mine and the insurance companies.

The failure of a single large insurance company Executive Life in the 1991 stressed the state guaranty fund system to the limits. It resulted in many policy holder losing 20% of their money in California. Perhaps even more problematic for retiree was seeing their payments reduced and/or suspend while the court system worked out the details of the bankruptcy.

There is a reason that most (perhaps all states) prohibit insurance companies from a making any mention of the guaranty fund in their marketing literature. It provides adequate protection for a single insurance company going bust due to incompetent or reckless behavior by management. It does nothing to cushion the consequences of systemic failure in the industry.

I figure the insurance industry is one black swan event away from some deep dodo.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

2008 and 2009 were indeed stressful days for the industry, and some players reported huge losses. The losses were probably a bit exaggerated in that, like many other public companies, once you know you're going to be reporting a big loss you really clean out the closets - if you're going to take a bath it is best to take a big bath and get it over with.

I concede that insurers are big investors in corporate bonds and financial sector corporate bonds in particular so the taxpayer bailout of the banks was helpful, but it was also helpful to pension plans, university endowments and other entities that have heavy bond investments. If the stuff hits the fan and corporate America defaults on its debt obligations, there will be an adverse affect on insurers - AND on all corporate bond investors. If that were to happen then insurer insolvencies would only be a sizeable piece of a cataclysmic pie.

The bull market helps but not much because life insurer general accounts are not typically big common stock investors, in part because of the impact of investing in common stock on RBC and required surplus.

Executive Life (and Mutual Benefit Life and other insolvencies) led to significant reforms in the solvency monitoring approach in the 1990s, notably RBC requirements, which have greatly improved solvency monitoring by regulators.

[Interesting, and true story on Executive Life. Our mutual company was going through a ratings review with one of the major rating agencies and the people from the rating agency were questioning the conservativeness of our investment portfolio and questioning how we could be competitive if we weren't more aggressive (ie; buy junkier bonds). Our CMO got a bit heated and pounded on the table and told them that we would be around long after Executive Life went belly up. EL went belly up a few years later.]

Could there be a calamity that hurts the economy so much that the investments backing insurance liabilities default and the insurers are unable to pay on their obligations and the guaranty associations go belly up as well? I guess anything is possible. But it seems equally probable that Martians will land in my driveway tonight. :D
 
Yes. Bottom line is annuities have more risk than a CD.

The irony is that the big market crash that annuities are supposed to protect you from is the same market crash that might crash the state insurance guarantee fund. So what good is that guarantee?

1. Perceptive glimpse of the obvious - congratulations! :D
2. Where did anyone in this thread suggest that annuities are less risky than CDs? :facepalm:
3. A stock market crash would stress, but not break, insurers and guaranty funds since their common stock investments are relatively modest unless the causes of the stock market crash significantly impacted the debt markets.
 
1. Perceptive glimpse of the obvious - congratulations! :D
2. Where did anyone in this thread suggest that annuities are less risky
than CDs? :facepalm:
3. A stock market crash would stress, but not break, insurers and guaranty funds since their common stock investments are relatively modest unless the causes of the stock market crash significantly impacted the debt markets.

Well it is fair to assess the relative risks of 3% interest rate of the OPs annuity vs 2% CD backed by the FDIC. Personally I'd rather have the 1% more income, cause I think the risk is minimal that the 3% annuity doesn't get paid by an insurance company. There also is a tiny tiny risk that CD doesn't get paid also in the event of a another major crisis and the FDIC fund goes broke.

But if the difference was between 2% CD and 2.05% annuity I'd take the CD.


I should also add to my previous posts, that I personally wouldn't lose sleep over an SPIA, unless it was one of the super high yield ones like Executive Life use to offer. But if if were talking about Equity Index Annuity, or some of the more exotic products, than a lot diligence more than almost all people are capable of doing (You and Brewer, probably not myself.)

Your anecdote is interesting but also scary.

Imagine if your CMO was more foolish, or less conservative and had taken the idiotic regulators advice. Your company competes with Executive Life for marketshare by offering higher interest rates on annuities. Other insurance companies urged by regulators to be more competitive do the same. The insurance companies of course need to invest in those "not-very-risky" junk bonds to pay the higher interest rates. The junk bond market crashes and in addition to taking down Executive Life also takes down their competitors. Even more stress on guarantee funds and even higher losses to individual annuity holders.

This seems a bit more likely than a Martian invasion or am I missing something?
 
I should also add to my previous posts, that I personally wouldn't lose sleep over an SPIA, unless it was one of the super high yield ones like Executive Life use to offer. But if if were talking about Equity Index Annuity, or some of the more exotic products, than a lot diligence more than almost all people are capable of doing (You and Brewer, probably not myself.)
All of the fancy riders that get slapped on EIAs are not covered by the guarantee fund.

The OP indicated that their nominal $30,000 annuity is a very small portion of their assets. Given the whopping difference of $300 per year in phantom income between 2% and 3%, it seems that life would be made simpler by eliminating this small account. That interest difference is also probably temporary. Longer term CD rates will probably rise above the annuity rate once the current interest rate manipulation ends.
 
....Your anecdote is interesting but also scary.

Imagine if your CMO was more foolish, or less conservative and had taken the idiotic regulators advice. Your company competes with Executive Life for marketshare by offering higher interest rates on annuities. Other insurance companies urged by regulators to be more competitive do the same. The insurance companies of course need to invest in those "not-very-risky" junk bonds to pay the higher interest rates. The junk bond market crashes and in addition to taking down Executive Life also takes down their competitors. Even more stress on guarantee funds and even higher losses to individual annuity holders. ......

Our company was almost conservative to a fault so there is no way that would have ever happened - and based on my interaction with other mutuals and the more conservative stock companies I think the same could be said for them. There were many in the industry at the time who were very skeptical of EL's overweighting of junk bonds. Note that it was NOT regulators urging us - it was ONE of the rating agencies and I think to some extent they weren't necessarily encouraging us to be less conservative but were just interested in our response as to how we expected to be able to compete with those yahoos at EL. Our company culture was very conservative, as were most other mutuals I interacted with and also most of the big name stock companies, though I concede that the players are all probably less conservative today than back in the 80s and 90s (other than perhaps NML).

.........Given the whopping difference of $300 per year in phantom income between 2% and 3%, it seems that life would be made simpler by eliminating this small account. That interest difference is also probably temporary. Longer term CD rates will probably rise above the annuity rate once the current interest rate manipulation ends.

I don't think it is likely that medium term CDs will ever pay more than the FPDA. The 3% is only the minimum guaranteed rate, as interest rates rise the crediting rate would likely rise as well and I would think that the crediting rate would generally always be higher than 3-5 year CD rates. FPDA issuers realize that CDs are a substitute product that they have to compete with. The minimum guaranteed rate is a feature of annuities that CDs don't have and have been very beneficial to policyholders during the financial crisis. All of that said, I'm not a fan of annuities and don't own any, but if I owned one that was paying 3% I'd be keeping it unless I was really keen to minimize the number of different accounts that i had.
 
Fascinating discussion... Thanks...
If it's not too far off the topic... Thoughts on the positives and negatives of IBonds...
1. On the older ones.. from early 2000's
2. On buying today vs annuities... CD's
 
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