Another Financial Advisor Question

I don't need convinced!
I interpreted your post as asserting that the stock picking vs indexing question was open. It is not open from a statistical point of view or in the minds of several Nobel Prize winners. I think the question can be only open in people's minds where they do not have the data or they do not understand it. If you're convinced/do not see it as an open question, then that's fine. Sorry to have misinterpreted.


You are making Rustward's point for him.
I don't know. I have not studied his posts except that it seems he doesn't like to have FAs criticized. I didn't criticize anyone in my long post. The acronym "FA" doesn't even appear. I only presented data & it's actually data that an FA could use to design a winning portfolio, too. If someone has science-grade contradictory data I would love to see it. I am as greedy as the next guy and would love to beat my passive results.
 
Interesting discussion, and I agree that we should keep the thread on topic and discuss the issues, without making people feel like they are being attacked for choosing to use an FA.

When I first joined this forum, I had no idea what an index fund was, or why I would need one. I came close to using Fidelity's Portfolio Advisor Services and paying them 1%. Someone on the board suggested I educate myself on investing before making a decision.

So I bought the book Investments For Dummies. After reading the book I was comfortable enough with the concepts that I understood why it didn't make sense for me to hire someone to manage my money. But I continued to read more books on the subject, probably 5 or 6. And I did so because I found the topic interesting, so I enjoyed reading about it.

Some people really don't like investing, and don't want to take their time to educate themselves about the topic. I can relate, as I didn't really start doing so until I stopped working and had the time to delve into it.

For those people, all the nudging in the world may not be enough to change their minds. And really, why do we need to? This forum helps to educate people and open their minds to new ideas. But we don't win any awards for converting people from active to passive. For those who want the help and advice this is a great forum. For some, they would rather just continue down the path of using an FA because they made the decision to do so and would rather not change course. Or they simply like having some hand holding and are willing to pay for that luxury.

For those of you who strongly believe in passive investing, don't look to the folks using FAs to have a convincing argument why they do so. It's simply what they are more comfortable with. I don't think there's much more explanation than that.
 
[...]
I only presented data & it's actually data that an FA could use to design a winning portfolio, too. If someone has science-grade contradictory data I would love to see it. I am as greedy as the next guy and would love to beat my passive results.
Financial advisors can follow a passive path. Vanguard advocates for financial advisors in this white paper:
https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/ISGQVAA.pdf
We believe implementing the Vanguard Advisor’s Alpha framework can add about 3% in net returns for your clients and also allow you to differentiate your skills and practice.
 
As pointed out over on bogleheads time and again it boils down to: what can you control?

You can't control investment returns.

You can control your investing costs.
 
Interesting discussion, and I agree that we should keep the thread on topic and discuss the issues, without making people feel like they are being attacked for choosing to use an FA.
...

Some people really don't like investing, and don't want to take their time to educate themselves about the topic. I can relate, as I didn't really start doing so until I stopped working and had the time to delve into it.

For those people, all the nudging in the world may not be enough to change their minds. And really, why do we need to? This forum helps to educate people and open their minds to new ideas. But we don't win any awards for converting people from active to passive. ....

Sure, and I don't see these discussions as focused on "changing anyone's mind". But... if someone is going to make a statement on this forum, and other's see some holes in that statement, well, then a discussion ensues.

I sure don't care if some individual wants to keep their FA. But if they are going to tell me it's great because they don't have to worry (aren't they worried about the FA?), or that capital gains taxes don't matter (they do), that becomes part of the general education process and give-and-take around here. No reason for anyone to take that personally, and especially to go to the length of telling us we shouldn't be talking about it, because it might upset some people who use FAs.


...

When I first joined this forum, I had no idea what an index fund was, or why I would need one. I came close to using Fidelity's Portfolio Advisor Services and paying them 1%. Someone on the board suggested I educate myself on investing before making a decision.

So I bought the book Investments For Dummies. After reading the book I was comfortable enough with the concepts that I understood why it didn't make sense for me to hire someone to manage my money. But I continued to read more books on the subject, probably 5 or 6. And I did so because I found the topic interesting, so I enjoyed reading about it.

Some people really don't like investing, and don't want to take their time to educate themselves about the topic. ... .

Most of us have gone through something similar, and the counter-intuitive part of that is, after you do the learning, you come to the realization that is really is very simple. I think that is worth re-visiting, for all those people who assume it is complicated, difficult to learn, and will take a lot of time/effort.

My time/effort is 99.99% on trying to optimize (more like not making gross errors) in my taxes. The investing part is almost nothing. A very, very lazy portfolio for me now. Yawn.

-ERD50
 
Financial advisors can follow a passive path. Vanguard advocates for financial advisors in this white paper:
https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/ISGQVAA.pdf


But look at where they think they get that from....

Did not copy well.... but asset allocation using broadly diversified funds added 0 (yes ZERO) to the return...

Buying low cost funds added 40 bps....

Behavioral coaching is 150 bps.... which is do not sell when the market goes down!!!

Spending strategy 0 to 110 bps.... well, that is zero for me as I can figure out the best strategy for me....


Since I am doing ALL of what they would do they add zero value to my returns.... and if I have to pay for this advice then I am losing...







Typical value added for client
(basis points)
Suitable asset allocation using broadly diversified funds/ETFs
I
> 0 bps*
Cost-effective implementation (expense ratios)
II
40 bps
Rebalancing
III
35 bps
Behavioral coaching
IV
150 bps
Asset location
V
0 to 75 bps
Spending strategy (withdrawal order)
VI
0 to 110 bps
Total-return versus income investing
VII
> 0 bps*
Total potential value added
About 3% in net returns
 
With all due respect to the many on this forum who think FA's are a waste of money, some of us like using them for a variety of reasons. I detailed DH's and my reasons in an earlier post on this thread. Our reasons work for us.

Many of the topics on this forum show different opinions on things, which is the beauty of a forum like this.

However for this particular topic, I don't feel there is much recognition that working with an FA can be a good decision. The tone of many of the anti-FA posts is that anyone who uses an FA on an ongoing basis must be uninformed, an idiot, or both.

For those of us who feel that our retirement financial needs are taken care of, whether we use financial advisors or other pros like tax advisors to help us is really no one else's concern.

If the intent of all the negativity about FA's is to provide information to help inform those who need assistance, I think it is more helpful to explain both sides of the issue. This is not a one size fits all question. A new reader would not necessarily get that there are some valid reasons to avoid certain types of FA's, while there are equally valid reasons to use an FA. It is a disservice to suggest that all FA's are crooks selling high commission products and churning portfolios for their own benefit. There are some great FA's out there, and if it builds someone's confidence, helps them avoid mistakes, or simply takes a burden off someone to use an FA, you're in good company!Many people including very smart and wealthy individuals use FA's as do corporations and endowment funds who have very smart people running them.

As with all topics on here, YMMV
 
With all due respect to the many on this forum who think FA's are a waste of money, some of us like using them for a variety of reasons. I detailed DH's and my reasons in an earlier post on this thread. Our reasons work for us.
I agree. I don't use an FA and won't. However, I think they are right for many people. If I kick the bucket first, I've already given instructions to DW as to what FA to work with. She doesn't want to self manage. So, she'll use an FA.

I think one take away people who use FA's should get from this discussion is you need to choose your FA carefully. Many of them are wonderful and do a great job with the client's interest at heart. However, many others seem to only look for their commission. Fees also vary widely, as do philosophies of investment. Do your homework.

Maybe it is my imagination, but lately ER.org forums seem to become more like our world: bifurcated. Topics such as debt and FA usage have become very hot with many people taking a side and drilling it in forever until they apparently break down the other side. I don't get it. There is room for both views.
 
I would have no issue using a financial advisor who I pay for on an hourly basis to answer my questions and review my portfolio. I think the negative reaction you see from many of the forum members comes from the potential conflict of interest that comes into play when the advisor charges for their services as a percentage of assets under management. Or worse, they make commissions on products they sell you. Either way introduces a conflict of interest that can cause the advisor to have to decide whether to give you the advice that best fits your needs or puts the most money in their pocket.

Does anyone on the forum use an advisor on an hourly basis?
 
I thought this thread was to help the OP decide if their FA was any good and worth it. The folks who have responded that use FAs have not given many concrete criteria to help the OP decide if their FA was any good. I'm thinking of things like:

1. Saved me $20,000 on taxes every year.

2. My portfolio performance is not much worse (within FA fees) to the performance of a passively-managed benchmark performance.

3. The FA costs me very little.

4. ... what else?
 
Does anyone on the forum use an advisor on an hourly basis?

I haven't yet but I am on the cusp of starting to use an experienced local CPA with a well regarded firm. I will ask him to review my overall tax planning and income strategy to either confirm that I'm doing it as well as he thinks I can or suggest specific improvements. I expect to pay him for an hour or two per year and expect it to be in the $250 per hour range.
 
I thought this thread was to help the OP decide if their FA was any good and worth it. The folks who have responded that use FAs have not given many concrete criteria to help the OP decide if their FA was any good. I'm thinking of things like:



1. Saved me $20,000 on taxes every year.



2. My portfolio performance is not much worse (within FA fees) to the performance of a passively-managed benchmark performance.



3. The FA costs me very little.



4. ... what else?



My earlier post specifically stated #2 and outlined several other benefits. Robbie has listed the benefits he values also. And several people have mentioned that one of the best services FA's provide is to keep people from panic selling in a crashing market.
 
I would have no issue using a financial advisor who I pay for on an hourly basis to answer my questions and review my portfolio. I think the negative reaction you see from many of the forum members comes from the potential conflict of interest that comes into play when the advisor charges for their services as a percentage of assets under management. Or worse, they make commissions on products they sell you. Either way introduces a conflict of interest that can cause the advisor to have to decide whether to give you the advice that best fits your needs or puts the most money in their pocket.



Does anyone on the forum use an advisor on an hourly basis?



Why does anyone think an FA charging a % of assets under management is a conflict of interest? I understand it can be costly depending on portfolio size, but it seems like advisor and client interests are aligned - if portfolio value drops, fees drop and as portfolio grows, fees grow.

Completely agree that FA's who are not fiduciaries should be avoided and that if an FA tries to sell anything other than publicly traded securities, buyer beware. Not saying all products available to accredited investors only through an FA are bad, but many are better for the FA than for the client.
 
What does PT Barnum have to do with FA's or indexers?
I think it is respect that contributors don't want to mention sucker.
Typical value added for client
(basis points)
Suitable asset allocation using broadly diversified funds/ETFs
I
> 0 bps*
Cost-effective implementation (expense ratios)
II
40 bps
Rebalancing
III
35 bps
Behavioral coaching
IV
150 bps
Asset location
V
0 to 75 bps
Spending strategy (withdrawal order)
VI
0 to 110 bps
Total-return versus income investing
VII
> 0 bps*
Total potential value added
About 3% in net returns
Thanks. That is a great summary.
There are some great FA's out there, and if it builds someone's confidence, helps them avoid mistakes, or simply takes a burden off someone to use an FA, you're in good company!Many people including very smart and wealthy individuals use FA's as do corporations and endowment funds who have very smart people running them.
Yes one of my buddies is very smart but has a good FA that he uses. I do not think he is an idiot. Maybe he could do it better himself, but his working life was outsourcing.
I agree. I don't use an FA and won't. However, I think they are right for many people. If I kick the bucket first, I've already given instructions to DW as to what FA to work with. She doesn't want to self manage. So, she'll use an FA.
Same here. We maintain a small part of our portfolio with an FA. I do the rest, stock and bond picking. I could move to Couch Potato but prefer the better returns, now that I am retired. Plus we can afford the extra 1% when I am gone. And she will probably remarry if she wants to.
 
Why does anyone think an FA charging a % of assets under management is a conflict of interest? I understand it can be costly depending on portfolio size, but it seems like advisor and client interests are aligned - if portfolio value drops, fees drop and as portfolio grows, fees grow. ....

It could be a conflict.... FA might have an incentive to take on more risk than is appropriate in the situation... swing for the fences.... in the hopes that if it pans out then their comp will increase.... if it doesn't then the only implication is that their fees will go down or they will be fired.

I guess for me it is just the value proposition... I don't see that an FA brings any added value to the table over what I can DIY but costs 1%.... but I can understand that they are worth the 1% in some situations... for example, they can hold the hand of nervous nellies and hopefully prevent them from panic selling.

That said, if someone choses to use an FA with their eyes wide open then that is no skin off my arse so live and let live.
 
Most of us have gone through something similar, and the counter-intuitive part of that is, after you do the learning, you come to the realization that is really is very simple. I think that is worth re-visiting, for all those people who assume it is complicated, difficult to learn, and will take a lot of time/effort.

-ERD50

Like Sam said:
 

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Financial advisors can follow a passive path. Vanguard advocates for financial advisors in this white paper:
https://www.vanguard.com/pdf/ISGQVAA.pdf
Yes, thank you. That was my point. Interesting read.

I think the discussion here is maybe unnecessarily agitated because of a couple of non-obvious false premises. I include myself in being guilty of this:
First, that an FA's sole purpose is to run the money. Several of those who use FAs have, I think, tried to draw attention to this fallacy, but with limited success.

Second, that all FAs are stock pickers or use stock picker mutual funds. I think this is largely true but certainly not universal. FAs approved to sell DFA funds, for example, are going to be well towards the passive side if not completely there. The Vanguard piece also argues for FAs doing passive investing, though we don't know how many have bought the argument.
So, trying to avoid those two issues I'll try to restate my opinion on FAs:

If an FA does nothing but run the client's money and believes in stock picking, that is a bad deal for the client.

If an FA provides value to the client outside of just running the money, then that is an entirely reasonable thing for the client to pay for.

If an FA utilizes a stock picking strategy, he/she is statistically likely to cost the customer money versus a similar strategy (AA, etc.) that is passive. This extra cost (I have seen estimates of about 2-3%) is an additional cost of using that particular FA.

So the client simply needs to evaluate the net cost of the FA, including wrap fees and long-term investment performance, then decide whether the net cost is equal to or less than the value provided.
 
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I think an FA like RobbieB uses is probably a good choice for many people based on two factors. All big stocks and wide diversification.

Other FAs who use a bunch of mutual funds are cheating IMHO because they're using the expertise of others (the MF managers) instead of their own research, and adding the MF ER onto their own fees. Those are the ones who deserve our scorn.
 
I am agreeing with Old Shooter. There was a book published in 1940 called,"Where are the Customers' Yachts?" that is just as true today as it was then.
 
I think an FA like RobbieB uses is probably a good choice for many people based on two factors. All big stocks and wide diversification.

Other FAs who use a bunch of mutual funds are cheating IMHO because they're using the expertise of others (the MF managers) instead of their own research, and adding the MF ER onto their own fees. Those are the ones who deserve our scorn.

I'm not following this logic.

Since studies tell us that an individual is unlikely to beat indexes, why would an FA that chooses individual stocks be looked upon any differently from an FA that chooses funds?

Is it just because the stock picking FA put more "work" into it? I don't care about effort, only results. If I could find an FA that I felt confident would beat the market for me, I don't care if he works 60 hours a week at it, or 6 hours a year.

Either way, I would not use the word "scorn". It would take worse than that for me to use that word. They offer a service, people buy it, that's fine. Sure, I think people could DIY easier than they may think, and get better results, but that's true of lots of things.

"Scorn" would be reserved for taking their money, putting them in expensive or risky or other inappropriate investments for no good reason.

-ERD50
 
I've never had a yacht, but I have gone through 4 boats.
 
My guy is beating the market now and has for 3 years straight.

I don't care that Nobel winning authors have decided that it's not possible forever.

I like being a sucker and a chump, I chuckle all the way to the sushi bar.
 
I've never had a yacht, but I have gone through 4 boats.


Have you had a chance to review your after-tax returns? It sure seems those ST & LTCG would be a drag on performance, but maybe I'm missing something.

-ERD50
 
Yeah I did. Turns out that I misread the first time and quoted the gains for the whole 3 accounts (which includes the IRA) My taxable cap gain stands at 75 grand and it's all long term. I have very little unrealized cap losses (big surprise eh) to offset this. Looks like 60 grand in dividends and 75 cap gain, about the same as last year so no surprises.

The 75 grand is about 5%
 
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