Do we really want everyone ER'd ?

[ferco]

Where would we all be if 90+% of the population were to follow the priinciples leading to FIRE? I think on a very large scale for "us" to exist in a ER state a whole bunch of folk have to be at the opposite or somewhat opposite extreme. The capitalist structure which allows ER is based on debt, credit, work and ignorance of finances.
On another note:
I was at the bookstore recently and scanned the cover of Trump/Kiyosaki new book...something like: 'We really want YOU to be Rich'...gimme a break. Millions believe that The Donald is somehow going to really reveal his "secrets" of becomig a billionaire. That will only be given to Ivanka, Donald Jr, Eric and "The Baron".

 

[Tadpole]

This is just the Donald Trump version of "You're OK; I'm OK" and like all such self-help schemes the one that gets helped most is the one selling the book.

 

[Zathras]

I don't think you need worry about that.
It is more likely that we will achieve world peace and eliminate all crime before 90% of people can ER (or even R).

 

[ferco]

Oh......forgot the other daughter Tiffany. By the way,in his unauthorized biography, it seems Trumps grandfather made his money during the gold rush selling booze and running houses of ill repute...so much for "self-made" wealth and brilliance that is proclaimed in the "authorized" bio.(ie., silver fork syndrome)

 

[Goonie]

I don't think you need worry about that.
It is more likely that we will achieve world peace and eliminate all crime before 90% of people can ER (or even R).

Agreed! Of all the folks I know (friends and relatives alike), there are only a couple that could possibly ER...many will be able to retire someday (some in poverty, though)....and of course there are some (quite a few) that will work to the death!

Me My last day at my desk is 14 weeks from today!!! (of course I told my boss that my last day of w*rk was several months ago! )

 

[ats5g]

Oh......forgot the other daughter Tiffany. By the way,in his unauthorized biography, it seems Trumps grandfather made his money during the gold rush selling booze and running houses of ill repute...so much for "self-made" wealth and brilliance that is proclaimed in the "authorized" bio.(ie., silver fork syndrome)

Kind of like the Kennedy's, eh?

btw - did you see that Kiyosaki's wife has jumped on the bandwagon too: Rich Woman: A Book on Investing for Women - Because I Hate Being Told What to Do!

And, surprise, surprise, she's got a website: Rich Woman - Financial Literacy for Women

Pass the barf bag.

- Alec

 

[Robert the Red]

If everyone lived the LBYM life, then things would indeed be different. I once read an interesting article pointing out that the US per capita GDP had doubled from 1947 to 1997. So, if everyone were willing to live the 1947 lifestyle at the 1997 productivity level, they could (say) work only in alternate years, and relax (in 1947 style) the other years. That, of course, is not the choice of most people -- not even a conscious alternative, for many. But, approximately, it is the choice of the LBYM-FIRE types.

 

[JJac]

Millions believe that The Donald is somehow going to really reveal his "secrets" of becomig a billionaire. That will only be given to Ivanka, Donald Jr, Eric and "The Baron".

The key secret Donald Trump has is he chose his parents carefully:
"Note: Recall that in the 1980s we venerated Donald Trump and studied his "art of the deal". If Donald Trump had taken the millions he inherited from his father and put it all into mutual funds, you'd never have had to suffer through one of his books. But he'd be just about as rich today."
http://philip.greenspun.com/bg/


But what would the world really be like if "everybody" pursued fire? Savings rates would go up to 20+%, which is common in Asian countries of old. Even at 0% interest in Japan, the population saves a large percentage of income. The idea that out of control consumption is the only thing driving the economy is common, but I'm not sure it has merit. Economics shouldn't be a zero sum game. Would the world really be in worse shape if there was less stuff thrown away every year, fewer clothes, cars, gasoline, and electronics puchased? On the positive side, people would have more time to spend with family, more time dedicated to causes that concerned them/charity. The ones that would miss out most are the guys on wall street getting 40 million dollar bonuses this year.


In the 1930's some economist (or maybe I just made this up) noted that increased producivity due to technological advances was supposed to free people from work and enable a life of leisure. Instead, the world focused on growth for the sake of growth and made work even more a focus of life, even driving spouses into the work place for dual incomes

 

[perinova]

In the 1930's some economist (or maybe I just made this up) noted that increased producivity due to technological advances was supposed to free people from work and enable a life of leisure. Instead, the world focused on growth for the sake of growth and made work even more a focus of life, even driving spouses into the work place for dual incomes

This is Value vs Growth.
Technology was supposed to improve people's life until greed/affluenza set in. In this Capitalistic system people are trying to get more than their counterparts. I am guessing this could end at some point.
When the whole world will be developed, and the population growth will stop, when the amount of shopping that any one can do in a day will saturate. There will be no new market to open and the world will shift from a Growth mode to a Value mode.
This is already happening in mainland Europe where people accepted a lower productivity growth (read GDP and wealth) for more leisure time. The problem they are facing is America and Asia didn't follow suit. They may need to forgo this mode to avoid impoverishment and capital fleeing.

 

[JJac]

Technology was supposed to improve people's life until greed/affluenza set in. In this Capitalistic system people are trying to get more than their counterparts.

This is already happening in mainland Europe where people accepted a lower productivity growth (read GDP and wealth) for more leisure time. The problem they are facing is America and Asia didn't follow suit. They may need to forgo this mode to avoid impoverishment and capital fleeing.

There is a great article titled "Happiness and economics" in a recent issue of the economist about this very thought:
http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=8401269


"To clamber up the pecking order, some people slave away nights and weekends at the office. They gain in rank at the expense of their free time. But in making that sacrifice they also hurt anyone else who shares their aspirations: they too must give up their weekends to keep up. Mr Frank reckons that many people would like to work less, if only others slackened off also. But such bargains cannot be struck unilaterally. On the contrary, people compete in costly “arms races”, knowing that if they do not work harder, they will lose their standing to someone who does."

"Is mutual disarmament possible? Not without government help...", which segweys into why to tax people who earn "too much"

 

[kcowan]

If everyone began LBYM, the consumer-driven economy would tank, and the market would crash. Yup the people here will never be more than 5% of the community. Hooray for small numbers. Let's never follow the herd!

Trump books are fluff, ghost-written to pump his already large ego. Hey the guy knows how to promote. You too can make a billion when Fred leaves you $50 million. The Donald did not really flourish until after his Dad died because they had different ideas and the golden rule applied.

BTW I like The Apprentice even though I find Trump a blowhard.

 

[dmpi]

If everyone began LBYM, the consumer-driven economy would tank, and the market would crash. Yup the people here will never be more than 5% of the community. Hooray for small numbers. Let's never follow the herd!

If people cut back on their spending by cutting out their waste, things can still be OK. For example during the housing boom. I saw perfectly good houses being torn down, replaced by giant new homes. I don't mind people living in giant homes, but tearing down a good home is waste. I've seen people remodel bathroom & kitchens of brand new homes. People drive giant SUVs & trucks with only one person in it.

Going back to the orignal question, it would not be good if everyone RE. Because we need lots of workers working for low pay, funding SSI & medicare. Improving the profitability of corporate america and thus rewarding us stockholders. They way thing are going.... we may very well get our wish.

 

[firewhen]

Where I work, only 70% of those eligible participate in the 401k plan. This despite the fact that we have a match and no pension. So almost a third are giving up free dollars and are hoping to live on SS alone.

If anything, the savings rate is lower now than it was a generation ago, when pensions were more prevalent and SS was more solvent. Who knows what would happen if more people saved and ER, but I cannot see that happening anytime soon.

 

[ferco]

Well what really gets me is the lack of even the slimest sense of personal responsibility/accountability. To save 10% of one's income or even 5% if that's all you can do over 20-30 years ain't asking a lot. Then you see that same person finding money to buy a $3 pack of cigarettes (2-3 packs a day), 2-3 six packs of beer a wk,super charged cable TV service, large flat screen TV's, the biggest SUV, $150 sneakers for the kids and then blame the government for not taking care of them......go figure it out.

 

[free4now]

It's kind of a moot question because there's no way we would ever get everyone interested in LBYM.

At christmas I saw that different family members had completely different approaches to money, even though they were all raised (and mostly educated) the same. I think it comes down to psychology; I think the reason I have been able to LBYM is my cautious disposition. I think the reason another family member hasn't been able to LBYM is their orientation towards gaining sustenance from relationships. And yet another family member is a big risk-taker who is able to LBYM because of their resourcefulness.

We can't have a world in which everyone is a doctor, engineer, or teacher, but those are all useful roles to play within society. And in the same way being FIRE (which usually implies being an investor) is a useful role to play, even though not everyone can play that role.