Down size the fully paid vehicles.?

[Koolau]

Now days you would put in consideration as a drug dealer, and might get a 3 am unpleasant visit from law enforcement. The dealer would have to file a report on you. Plus depending on where you are driving thru the cops might decide to stop you and confiscate the money (see Carthage Tx for an example).

Yeah, a lot of things were different 30 years ago. e.g., the gummint still assumed innocence. Now, you have to prove you own what you have. Guilty unless you can prove you are innocent. I've heard of folks being accused of "shopping" for drugs because they had a couple of hundred on them. Personally, I would never travel without a couple of hundred in cash just to insure I could be towed in Upper Nowheresville where they don't take credit cards. YMMV

 

[NW-Bound]

Perhaps you look more like the "millionaire next door" than I do.

Interesting. I've never had a dealer question my personal check. It's always been accepted immediately despite me having no trade-in. It's not a big deal.

The real reason for me to pay cash for vehicles is not to show to myself that I can afford it. Rather, I have to ask myself before making a big purchase is that whether the acquired good will make me happier than the current joy of seeing that "cold hard cash" showing up in my Quicken screen everyday.

That honesty to myself has kept me from making impulse purchases, or to have buyer's remorse. And by the way, I do pay for smaller purchases with credit cards, which I always pay off at the end of the month. Like many people here, I never have problems like the spendthrifts do, who have to limit themselves the access to credit cards.



PS. My memory has failed me again! I just asked my wife, who said that she drove the SUV home that same day! It was her car, not mine, so her memory is more reliable than mine. I stand corrected.

The delay that I remember hearing from the dealer was not the delivery of the vehicle, but rather the filing of the title. Of course the dealer wanted to be sure the vehicle was actually paid for, before he transferred the legal ownership.

 

[youbet]

Perhaps you look more like the "millionaire next door" than I do.

It's been a long time since I read the book, but if I recall correctly the millionaire next door was someone with a million bux but who presented themselves as someone you'd think had much less. I'm not sure exactly what that looks like, but it would describe me from a housing, automobile and clothing perspective. I think car dealers take personal checks because there is very little risk to them to do so.

The real reason for me to pay cash for vehicles is not to show to myself that I can afford it. Rather, I have to ask myself before making a big purchase is that whether the acquired good will make me happier than the current joy of seeing that "cold hard cash" showing up in my Quicken screen everyday.

I don't buy cars very often, but when the occasion does finally come up I've been paying in full at the time of purchase because it's just easier. No shopping around to be sure you're getting good terms on the loan, no deciding how you'll pay (monthly statement, direct deduction, etc.) and no future chore of a final payment and making sure you then get clear title and all that. But, if someone who can truly afford the vehicle they're purchasing decides to buy it with a loan, I have no problem with that. Especially if the loan is providing some financial benefit such as liquidity or it's done with a low interest tax deductible heloc or whatever. And, as I've been saying, I don't think that the method of payment should have much, if anything, to do with the buying decision given that the buyer can afford the purchase.

I do think that there are many people who buy cars on credit and pay over time because they can't afford the car. That's not good. And that scenario tends to get generalized into the conclusion that a "paid for" car is affordable and a car being purchased on credit is not. Actually, we don't know that. A 50 yr old with a total net worth of $100k who goes out and buys a nice new luxury car for $65k probably is making a purchase he can't afford despite the fact he pays cash. A multi-millionaire who buys a $65k luxury car on credit and pays for it over 3 yrs obviously can afford it. We don't know why he bothered with the loan, but it doesn't matter.

So, when I see someone treating themselves generously with vehicles, I might wonder how the value of those vehicles relates to his net worth and/or income. But it really doesn't matter if the vehicles are "paid for" or not.

 

[Walt34]

We have 3 vehicles, (4 if a small boat is a "vehicle").

1. 2003 GMC 1/2-ton 4WD pickup truck
2. 2003 Buick Century
3. 2008 Suzuki C90T touring motorcycle
4. 2002 10-foot Porta-Bote folding boat with 5 hp Briggs & Stratton outboard.

All paid for, as is the house. Why is "paid for" so important? Because we feel that outstanding loans are a drag on future options and opportunities. If stuff is paid for it's a done deal, move on to the next decision.

We never have to say "Well, we could do "X", except that we have to make the payments on "Y".

Granted, in 50 years it won't matter very much either way.

 

[pb4uski]

I usually pay cash (by check, not currency) for vehicles as well.

The first time I did so the dealership was flummoxed as the staff had so few purchases in cash that they didn't know how to process the paperwork.

In another transaction the dealer and I were about $500 apart and i walked away. The next day, I stopped by on my way to work and gave the salesperson a check for my last price + $100 and told him that they could either call me and let me know when i could pick up the car or tear up the check and send it back to me in the mail. I hadn't been at my desk more than 5 minutes before I received a call asking me when I would like to pick up the car.

Emboldened by that success, a few years later I used the same strategy with another dealer. A couple days later i received a letter with the torn up check.

But the last new car that i bought the automaker's finance arm offered a $1,000 rebate if you financed with them, so i took it made a couple payments and then paid off the balance. An easy $1k.

 

[Ronstar]

But the last new car that i bought the automaker's finance arm offered a $1,000 rebate if you financed with them, so i took it made a couple payments and then paid off the balance. An easy $1k.

Same thing with me - I could only get the $1k rebate if I financed it. I complained about it but didn't get anywhere. The salesman told me that the balance could be paid at any time, but begged me to make at least 2 payments. He said he could get into trouble if me and his other buyers paid off their notes immediately. So I made 1 monthly payment and paid the balance the next month.

 

[NW-Bound]

Youbet, regarding the dealer's handling of cash payments, please see the postscript in my earlier post.

... A 50 yr old with a total net worth of $100k who goes out and buys a nice new luxury car for $65k probably is making a purchase he can't afford despite the fact he pays cash. A multi-millionaire who buys a $65k luxury car on credit and pays for it over 3 yrs obviously can afford it. We don't know why he bothered with the loan, but it doesn't matter...

Now, I agree with you that paying for something with cash does not necessarily mean that one can "afford" it. But usually, a person who has the cash to pay for a car tends not to be the type who has to call in to the Suze Orman show to ask if he can afford it.

But I submit to you that "affordability" is something that is not easily defined. In your example above, a guy with $100K to his name cannot really afford a $65K car, while a multi-millionaire could. Ah, but is it that simple? Please indulge me in the following philosophising from my personal experience.

As I mentioned, the first time I paid cash for a new car was some 25 years ago. It was for a Chrysler Villager, the first vehicle of its kind. As many of you remember, Chrysler invented the minivan, and that saved the company. I was a young engineer then, but having a graduate degree, my pay was fairly good. But my net worth was barely in the 6-figure (I couldn't tell exactly, as I did not yet get into the habit of checking my portfolio to the last dollar as frequently as I do now).

So, with a good job and plenty of cash on hand, I thought I could surely afford that minivan. And interest was high then, so I decided to pay cash. It was around $14K. That car was worth every dollar! It allowed my wife to go to the back of the vehicle on long road trips to check on the children while I drove. It let us carry all the knick knack for tending to little kids.

Fast forward to today. I am 25 years older. Can I afford the $65K car in your example?

My income the last time I worked full-time in 2003 was a higher multiple of the $65K car, compared to the multiple of my past income relative to that old common minivan. But more importantly, my net worth at this point is a much higher multiple of the new and fancy car. In fact, in previous market downturns, the fluctuations of my portfolio approached 10x that $65K amount.

But do I want to buy that $65K car in your example? No!

Though I have said that I am not a car lover, and do not care about fancy cars, that is not 100% true. There are things I do not care to own, no matter how much money I have, for example a Prevost RV. Nice motorhome as it is, it does not allow me to go to places I want to be, and I do not want to stick to the interstates and commercial campgrounds.

In contrast, a reasonable luxury car is something that I wouldn't mind having, and would enjoy. I know and appreciate the difference between a $65K car and one half that price. But I just don't appreciate it enough to not mind seeing my Quicken total drop by that amount. I also do not enjoy buying and selling "stuff". So, when I buy something, I usually keep it until it has no residual value left. If I write a check for $65K, the whole amount is written off in my mind as "sunk cost", gone and never recovered.

There are emotional and psychological factors in the "affordability index", not just the financial one. Now that I know I enjoy RV'in, I would not mind paying $65K for a used RV if and when I want to upgrade to something newer than what I have. But a car for that price is out of the question.

My wife feels the same way I do regarding expensive cars. The few times that this subject came up, we agreed that we cannot "afford" a car in that price range. I think I would feel differently if and when I have significantly more money. I think I will need to be at the $5M networth mark. Of course I do not see how that can happen any time soon.

And as I posted earlier, now that I have free time to wait for bargains, I may even go back to buying used cars like I did in my 20s. So, it is even a step backwards for me.

 

[Birchwood]

Reg. a 65K car!

If someone has a very large income, definitely a 65K car may be affordable, but it may not be practical and reasonable given that a 35K, may not be that far in equipment and both will bring you from A to B with
comfort. However a 14K Kia (car) will be very far from a 65K car.
A large income alone may also be deceiving and dangerous, as for example, there are those who make 300K/yr but who's expenses is 250K/yr even before taxes. Dont let the big income fool you!
It also depends upon somebody's net worth. If somebody has 5 million in
liquid asset, then a a 65K car is only 1.3% of the asset. Thus a Mercedes, Lexus, and even a Porsche(85K) may be affordable, and for which I will not have any problem. The fact is almost all of us will need more than one vehicle. It is amazing that the three vehicles acquired several year apart actually cost me $82500 to buy cash. I know somebody who is into cars but could afford it has a 65K Lexus, a 55K Mercedes and a 45K Toyota
HIghlander Hybrid, with a total cost of 165K just to buy!
So the moral lesson, for me, is that we lose money in vehicles and there is no recoup of lost. In the above real life example, I did spent a lot on cars,
82.5K but another spent twice as much, since if one buys a 65K car, his wife will not agree to drive a 12K HOnda Fit!

 

[NW-Bound]

Just out of curiosity, I looked up the effect of inflation from 1986 to now. Using the CPI from the BLS, the $14K car I bought in 1986 would cost $28,900 in 2011.

I guess that shows that what I am willing to pay for a new car has not gone up that much over the years!

 

[youbet]

If someone has a very large income, definitely a 65K car may be affordable, but it may not be practical and reasonable given that a 35K, may not be that far in equipment and both will bring you from A to B with
comfort. However a 14K Kia (car) will be very far from a 65K car.
A large income alone may also be deceiving and dangerous, as for example, there are those who make 300K/yr but who's expenses is 250K/yr even before taxes. Dont let the big income fool you!
It also depends upon somebody's net worth. If somebody has 5 million in
liquid asset, then a a 65K car is only 1.3% of the asset. Thus a Mercedes, Lexus, and even a Porsche(85K) may be affordable, and for which I will not have any problem. The fact is almost all of us will need more than one vehicle. It is amazing that the three vehicles acquired several year apart actually cost me $82500 to buy cash. I know somebody who is into cars but could afford it has a 65K Lexus, a 55K Mercedes and a 45K Toyota
HIghlander Hybrid, with a total cost of 165K just to buy!
So the moral lesson, for me, is that we lose money in vehicles and there is no recoup of lost. In the above real life example, I did spent a lot on cars,
82.5K but another spent twice as much, since if one buys a 65K car, his wife will not agree to drive a 12K HOnda Fit!

And thus was born the Birchwood Theory of Automotive Fleet Composition.