FCNTX vs SP 500

The problem with that is an active fund may fail the SPIVA test in 9 out of 10 years, yet perform spectacularly well in just one year such that the cumulative performance over the 10 year period beats the cumulative benchmark. Most people care about cumulative performance yet that is not what SPIVA is quoted for.

But, what happens if somebody needs to withdraw funds during those 9 years. Will there be enough left to provide much fruit when the one year performance is spectacular.

Sequence of return risk is real.
 
Ideally you have a nice 20+ year record with the same management to observe before you invest.
Ideally that management will stay another 40 years while you are invested.
I've seen plenty of funds swing back to mediocre after management changes, or even without. I felt better with team management. How long is FCNTX's Danoff going to hang around?

And really, just one or two good macro allocation choices (value stocks for 2001, bonds for 2008) can make you look like a genius. Our data never spans a long enough period to be sure we're seeing a real out-performance or luck or a strategy that is worked well for past conditions.

I carefully selected many active funds, but none of them were super exciting after I bought them. None were really terrible either.

Now, it's just too much trouble to sort through active funds, monitor them after I buy, and set up accounts at fund companies to gain access to semi-closed or cheaper funds. I'm selling them off as I need the income. I'm using just four index funds for retirement accounts and any new investments. Much simpler, pretty much the same performance.
 
Now, it's just too much trouble to sort through active funds, monitor them after I buy, and set up accounts at fund companies to gain access to semi-closed or cheaper funds. I'm selling them off as I need the income. I'm using just four index funds for retirement accounts and any new investments. Much simpler, pretty much the same performance.
Pretty much same here. You can see the ebbs and flows over a two decade period. Now these active funds just spit out way too much in capital gains distributions and I am letting them shrink in favor of index funds.
 
But, what happens if somebody needs to withdraw funds during those 9 years. Will there be enough left to provide much fruit when the one year performance is spectacular.

Sequence of return risk is real.

Yes, I agree, SOR is real. But SPIVA, and all the other metrics, such as 1, 3, 5, and 10 year performance, are only good for an investor in the accumulation stage. This is the reason people do portfolio analyses with a RIP tool that uses historical data (or Monte Carlo, if they get the cross-correlations right). It is the only way to get a handle on how sequence-of-returns will affect an investment strategy. There is no way to assess the SOR risk of a portfolio based on SPIVA or any other metric, that I am aware of.
 
Maybe consider comparing to IWF, Russell 1000 Growth Index vs S&P 500
 
You wouldn't be trying to cherry pick an index that beat FCNTX, now would you? That cherry picking stuff works both ways.
 
VPMAX has generally done better than FCNTX. Not in every period, but for the most part it has been better.

Why are you holding out with FCNTX when you could be getting more with VPMAX instead??





OP here just getting a chance to review the thread. Thank you! this goes with what I'm saying. There are great funds out there that have fund managers consistently over performing benchmarks. I should look at others like VPMAX. I know FCNTX and the manager and how it tilts in different directions which is why i stick with it.
 
Maybe consider comparing to IWF, Russell 1000 Growth Index vs S&P 500


fidelity.com website ( slight bias maybe ) lists sp 500 and a large cap growth index over 1 3 5 10 - contra funds still wins over every timeframe.




Fidelity® Contrafund® 25.56% 18.41% 16.67% 12.15% 12.73% S&P 500 19.66% 16.11% 14.52% 10.86% -- Large Growth 24.40% 16.28% 15.05% 11.14% -- Rank in Morningstar Category 44% 27% 31% 31% -- # of Funds in Morningstar Category 1427 1251 1124 812 --
 
Great discussion overall. Thank you for all the replies. As mentioned in the original post I use index funds predominately and see something like the Contra Fund as a great compliment. My bias is like with most things the truth tends to lie in the middle. In this case index funds dont always rule the day and clearly active funds dont either. It seems like such a religion / dogma sometimes with index funds i guess my original thought was why presented with evidence that real talent exists ( not me! will Danhoff manager of Contra fund ) should we not take advantage of that talent.
 
VPMAX has generally done better than FCNTX. Not in every period, but for the most part it has been better.

Why are you holding out with FCNTX when you could be getting more with VPMAX instead??

Because it's closed to new investors?
Because it had a $50,000 minimum investment?

Why not hold FOCPX instead of VPMAX? It's beaten VPMAX in YTD, 1, 3, 5, 10, 15 year returns.
 
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I laughed a little at this post (and at the responses) because Contra happened to be what I picked as a core fund 25 years ago. Will Danoff, the fund manager, is quite good at risk/reward. It in fact has outperformed the S&P slightly over the last 10 years, but as several has indicated it is more of a large growth fund rather than a blend, although it has "value" characteristics (or growth at a reasonable price--for instance a extremely large holding, in fact the largest, is Berkshire).

It is one of the reasons I was able to retire early, although I did commit the sin of active management in '01 when the large cap PEs went to the moon (>60), so I moved half of gains to Fidelity Low Price (a midcap fund). This was driven purely by the clear data that mid/low cap blend/value were valued about 10-20% of the S&P/technology. In the recovery, this happened to pay off, big time (luck but also a pure value tweak to my general allocation).



Now, I probably would not choose Contra largely because it is a victim of its own success; it's returns have moved closer and closer to the S&P largely because of Contra's huge size, which overwhelms Danoff's picking ability. I would consider an index, a value index, and a small/mid cap index if I were investing now, rather than 25 years ago.

Over the years, I used gains from it and Low-Price to steadily diversify overseas, into biotech, and several other niche areas; this also helped me retire early, although a few like materials and high yield foreign were drags.
Great fund but not sure I would use it as a base today. I've considered replacing it, but it's done well enough the last 5 & 10 years that it doesn't seem worth the bother; and with the inexorable rise of the S&P P/E, I consider it less risky now than the S&P index.

Beta 0.97

R2 0.77

Sharpe Ratio 1.69
 
VPMAX has generally done better than FCNTX. Not in every period, but for the most part it has been better.

Why are you holding out with FCNTX when you could be getting more with VPMAX instead??





OP here just getting a chance to review the thread. Thank you! this goes with what I'm saying. There are great funds out there that have fund managers consistently over performing benchmarks. I should look at others like VPMAX. I know FCNTX and the manager and how it tilts in different directions which is why i stick with it.
You missed my point. My point is that it's easy to pick winners in the rear view mirror, but that doesn't mean they will continue to be. And my later post #8 shows that they don't always outperform the index. You're looking in the rear view mirror now. If you had looked in the mirror at the end of 2016, you would not have been making this claim.

Looking at the last 5 years, the S&P actually did better in 2014 and 2016. If you had looked at the 1 3 5 10 year returns at the end of 2016, the S&P would've been ahead for the 1 & 3 for sure. Can't easily tell about the 5 & 10 from that point. If Contra was such a slam dunk, it should have beaten the S&P looking backwards from any point in time, but it hasn't.
 
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