MRG
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
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Agreed if we're going to go naked and not everyone is there? No pictures and it didn't happen.
Here we go, the top 20 % of us are the enemy
- Thread starter Blue Collar Guy
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Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Both parents came up during the Great Depression. Dad was missing most of one hand. His defense plant job was given to a returning service man following the war. So mom and dad rolled the dice and started a very small business. We grew up in a lower - middle class neighborhood, went to a "poor" school and we kids worked in the business as soon as we were capable of helping. My parents worked 12+ hours a day for 7 days most weeks for many years. We kids finally got the chance to go to university by mom and dad's hard work - and our own.
None of us ever earned in the top 20% as described in the article. Still, my NW is certainly in the top 20%. According to the article and much of what I hear on the news, I'm the reason there are people who didn't get to the top 20% (or, more to the point, I'm keeping them from reaching the top 20%.) I hate to tell them this, but (unlike the children in Lake Wobegon) not everyone can be above average. YMMV
None of us ever earned in the top 20% as described in the article. Still, my NW is certainly in the top 20%. According to the article and much of what I hear on the news, I'm the reason there are people who didn't get to the top 20% (or, more to the point, I'm keeping them from reaching the top 20%.) I hate to tell them this, but (unlike the children in Lake Wobegon) not everyone can be above average. YMMV
Blue Collar Guy
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Blue Collar Guy
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
RetiredAt55.5
Full time employment: Posting here.
"All the while, they support policies and practices that protect their economic position and prevent poorer kids from climbing the income ladder: legacy admissions, the preferential tax treatment of investment income, 529 college savings plans, ...."
Guilty as charged - yup, used 529 accounts to 100% pay for state university for all 3 kids (tuition, room and board).
I feel terrible for doing this. I guess I should've spent this money on a vacation house, and fancy European cars every couple years, and then been eligible for financial aid.
Guilty as charged - yup, used 529 accounts to 100% pay for state university for all 3 kids (tuition, room and board).
I feel terrible for doing this. I guess I should've spent this money on a vacation house, and fancy European cars every couple years, and then been eligible for financial aid.
Blue Collar Guy
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
"All the while, they support policies and practices that protect their economic position and prevent poorer kids from climbing the income ladder: legacy admissions, the preferential tax treatment of investment income, 529 college savings plans, ...."
Guilty as charged - yup, used 529 accounts to 100% pay for state university for all 3 kids (tuition, room and board).
I feel terrible for doing this. I guess I should've spent this money on a vacation house, and fancy European cars every couple years, and then been eligible for financial aid.
+1 For paragraph #3
The article is a complete crock. It is both poorly researched and dishonest. Even though they clearly want you to believe it to be so, neither the author nor the referenced Brookings minion presents any data to show that the top quintile contains the same individuals year after year. Why not? Because it isn't true!
Individual humans migrate among financial quintiles throughout their lives. A given 60 year old person in the top 20% today is statistically certain to have been in lower quintiles during earlier decades.
So this is how low the level of scholarship at Brookings has descended. Tsk, tsk.
Individual humans migrate among financial quintiles throughout their lives. A given 60 year old person in the top 20% today is statistically certain to have been in lower quintiles during earlier decades.
So this is how low the level of scholarship at Brookings has descended. Tsk, tsk.
bada bing
Full time employment: Posting here.
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw
I grew up white, male, in a working class neighborhood, coming of age in the late 60's and early 70's. I acknowledge that a certain element of privilege is associated with my demographic.
I never earned more than 70K/year placing me squarely in that 80% cohort. Same with DW - a public school teacher earning much less than me.
No resentment on our parts nor a feeling that others with more dough owed us anything. We w*rked hard, LBOM's, saved 'til it hurt and were content with simpler things in life.
There is, however, something structurally amiss in a society like the U.S. that now has nearly unparalleled wealth disparity. I'm not sure it's resentment on the part of the lower 80%'ers for the top 20% as it is resentment for a system that has permitted so much wealth to accrue to the top 1/10th of 1%.
I never earned more than 70K/year placing me squarely in that 80% cohort. Same with DW - a public school teacher earning much less than me.
No resentment on our parts nor a feeling that others with more dough owed us anything. We w*rked hard, LBOM's, saved 'til it hurt and were content with simpler things in life.
There is, however, something structurally amiss in a society like the U.S. that now has nearly unparalleled wealth disparity. I'm not sure it's resentment on the part of the lower 80%'ers for the top 20% as it is resentment for a system that has permitted so much wealth to accrue to the top 1/10th of 1%.
And the point isn't for anyone to feel guilty about what they have. The point is for people to not obstruct changes that seek to undercut or compensate for what is structurally amiss.
Red Badger
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
The MSN article is socialist tripe. Not surprised at all.
I worked two jobs (1 FT, 1 PT), and served in the Army Reserves while going to undergrad and graduate school at night. Attained my MBA with zero student loan debt. I worked my ass off for what we have and have minimal empathy for the 80%.
We support a small list of deserving charities and find joy in helping those who genuinely need assistance to improve their little piece of the world.
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” Ben Franklin
And dear old Ben was a great philanthropist....
I worked two jobs (1 FT, 1 PT), and served in the Army Reserves while going to undergrad and graduate school at night. Attained my MBA with zero student loan debt. I worked my ass off for what we have and have minimal empathy for the 80%.
We support a small list of deserving charities and find joy in helping those who genuinely need assistance to improve their little piece of the world.
“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” Ben Franklin
And dear old Ben was a great philanthropist....
Koolau
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Oh, no, I don't feel guilty. I do a lot for folks less fortunate than I, but not because someone else thinks I should nor because I think I played any part in their "misfortune." Nor do I want anyone telling me I have to do it (as in taking it from me to give to someone else.") If that's "obstructing" then "guilty as charged.". YMMV
This is a common misconception. Giving people what you deign to give them is Lording over them. That's not to say it isn't generous, or that you should stop it, but considering it sufficiently beneficent is a self-deception. Having been brought up in a society which is "structurally amiss" as outlined above, it is not uncommon for people to make that mistake.
If you truly care about those less fortunate, you would, at least to some extent, put their voices first, use your privilege to elevate their perspectives, and prioritize what they say they need rather than what you deign to bestow on them.
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Danmar
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Ya, really.
pb4uski
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
If they are not smart or motivated enough to have earned their way into the top 20%, what makes us think that they know what they need? If they say that they need materials or instruction to learn how to fish then fine, but if they say that they just need fish, then no.
Insisting that it is only the criteria that you deign to acknowledge that indicates whether or not someone else, given their circumstances, should enjoy the same success you did is yet another reflection of privilege being Lorded over those less fortunate. A lack of appreciation for how things are different for other people is precisely what perpetuates the structural problems within society.
The real shame of it is that this understanding probably would have reached more Americans if the way it was being delivered was not so political. This is a moral issue and if any institutions in the United States have failed our society it is without a doubt those institutions that formed our moral Center. The ascendancy of the reactionary religious right and it's focus on it's on Dogma rather than on fostering a better life for all, combined with the failure of even moderate religious institutions to be the literal binding of our society, abrogating their responsibility to bring us together, have helped bring about and foster the situation we're in now. You can see little bits and pieces here and there where they're trying to now yell through the dining, "Wait wait wait! Jesus was all about the poor!" But it's just noise in the ears of many.
And it sure doesn't help that now the strongest voices are trying to use guilt and recrimination to get the message across. That's yet another bad bad idea. (And the topic of my message to the congregation this morning incidentally...)
The real shame of it is that this understanding probably would have reached more Americans if the way it was being delivered was not so political. This is a moral issue and if any institutions in the United States have failed our society it is without a doubt those institutions that formed our moral Center. The ascendancy of the reactionary religious right and it's focus on it's on Dogma rather than on fostering a better life for all, combined with the failure of even moderate religious institutions to be the literal binding of our society, abrogating their responsibility to bring us together, have helped bring about and foster the situation we're in now. You can see little bits and pieces here and there where they're trying to now yell through the dining, "Wait wait wait! Jesus was all about the poor!" But it's just noise in the ears of many.
And it sure doesn't help that now the strongest voices are trying to use guilt and recrimination to get the message across. That's yet another bad bad idea. (And the topic of my message to the congregation this morning incidentally...)
Danmar
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Well ok. Thought a little more about this issue. Didn't read the article. If you step back a bit and ignore all the "Horatio Alger" stories, there is indeed an issue here. Our society is getting much more bifurcated. The mega-rich are indeed getting more powerful and claiming a larger share of total wealth. Maybe they deserve (whatever that means) it, but even if they did, having so much wealth and power concentrated in so few, can't be good in the long run.
Solution? Get private money out of politics and stop gerrymandering. Rest of the developed countries have figured this out. Once you do that things should improve, eventually.
Solution? Get private money out of politics and stop gerrymandering. Rest of the developed countries have figured this out. Once you do that things should improve, eventually.
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That would be a great start.
Another Reader
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What a bunch of BS. All societies, from ant to human are "structurally amiss" by your definition. Life is competitive, all the way up the evolutionary ladder. If you want to succeed, get off your butt and work at it.
When I hear this nonsense, I look to the immigrants to demonstrate how things really work. A lot of people from Vietnam moved here, beginning in the early to mid 1980's. They came from relocation camps with nothing but the shirts on their backs. They largely did not speak the language. They moved into the poorest neighborhoods, took some charitable and public assistance, and went to work. They took crap jobs, worked two of them in some cases, and everyone worked. No one whined about being disadvantaged. They simply moved forward.
Today, these folks and their children and grandchildren own houses and other properties, run businesses, hold professional positions, and participate in politics. Starting from nothing and with as many or more disadvantages than most people born here, they succeeded. And they did it in 30 years.
Instead of instilling this attitude in people, starting at home and moving through the schools, we have allowed a large underclass to develop. Every excuse is made for these folks, and nothing is done to change their situation. The value of work and participation in our society has diminished to nothing, and no one says or does anything to change this, for fear of the backlash. We have to import labor, which further undermines the incentive to work.
If you rely on me to eat and have a place to live, I should have some say over what you do. If you want to sit around all day on the street partying with your friends, I should not have to support that. There should be consequences for behavior that is destructive. Is that "lording it over you?" Yep. It's social parenting of people that didn't get the message the first time around.
We need to distinguish between the truly needy and incapable, who deserve our support, and people that need to participate, and who need direction and clearly stated incentives to do so. If we don't, we will be overwhelmed by their failure and our society will be at risk of disintegrating.
Pilot2013
Full time employment: Posting here.
My parents grew up picking cotton in upstate South Carolina, and working in textile mills, living in a 1000 sq ft mill house. My Dad went off to war, spent 22 years in the military as an enlisted guy, while my Mom worked while he was at sea 6 months out of the year, practically every year. They taught me to work, so i started working at 14 in a local bakery, mowed grass, and studied hard in school. They scraped and put me through college (I worked and helped). I now earn an income (along with my wife) that probably puts me in the 2-3%. I don't need YOU telling ME what I should do to help others. THEY can do what I did and help themselves. BTW, I DO help others, and YES, I DECIDE HOW THAT HELP COMES. That's part of the payment for my help.
Case in point, our VERY GREAT Senator in SC, Tim Scott (AA) went to school with me. He was the product of a broken home, single mother, and was even lower in the socio-economic scale, yet he is now part of the Gov't/Leadership in the best country in the world. HE doesn't need you telling HIM that he needs something taken from others so that HE could be successful either. Just ask him...
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Asked and answered above. A lack of appreciation for how things are different for other people is precisely what perpetuates the structural problems within society.
ShokWaveRider
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
Problem is in the US that 80% will believe anything that is posted, tweeted or said by any of their peer group. The amount of energy that is spent believing piffle could be better used in making a concerted effort to become part of the 20%.
This does not include the really misfortunate of our society who through no fault of their own have ended up there. They genuinely need our help.
This does not include the really misfortunate of our society who through no fault of their own have ended up there. They genuinely need our help.
Agreed. There's really no context for discussion at this point, since the resistance to understanding something other than what one experiences themselves is so high.
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