The Atlantic Article on Lack of Savings

[jimbee]

No doubt that's true in some cases. But perhaps a few such elderly Porsche owners don't care about other people's opinions and simply want to enjoy driving a fun car.

Once you've already achieved FI, I see nothing wrong using surplus $ - of course, always pay cash for 'toys' - on personal indulgences (chattels or experiences). You can't take it with you.

Yep, some people like driving a car that isn't just an appliance.

 

[kcowan]

one day when we were in a shopping mall I saw the Porsche in a toy store, so I bought it and gift-wrapped it for her. When I gave it to her I told her it was the fanciest car we were every going to own ... and there is sits on a shelf in the office, amid memorabilia from a past life.

When my boys were teenagers, the youngest asked me what I wanted for my birthday and I told him "a new Porsche". I still have it on a shelf in my den. It is white and the doors, trunk and engine cover all open.

 

[haha]

Yep, some people like driving a car that isn't just an appliance.

Also, the idea that older Porsche drivers are trying to prove something is perhaps not universal. For example, I have seen plenty of white haired guys climb out of their 911s, and then open the passenger door to a good looking attractively dressed and made-up 35 year old woman.

If there no buyers, there will be no suppliers.

And there is that special 911 engine sound.

Ha

 

[kcowan]

Yep, some people like driving a car that isn't just an appliance.

Is that a character flaw?

(We avoid certain marques because people will assume we are young and Chinese! Old geezer would be an improvement...)

 

[Mulligan]

Also, the idea that older Porsche drivers are trying to prove something is perhaps not universal. For example, I have seen plenty of white haired guys climb out of their 911s, and then open the passenger door to a good looking attractively dressed and made-up 35 year old woman.

If there no buyers, there will be no suppliers.

And there is that special 911 engine sound.

Ha

I am semi frugal only because I need to be to do some of the extra things I enjoy doing. My "frugality" would dissipate in relation to increased financial means. As long as the 35 year old isn't a financial hazard, I say good for him!

 

[Milton]

And there is that special 911 engine sound.

Accompanied by the famous S.T. Dupont lighter 'ping', as the Porsche owner lights up a Cohiba.

 

[Markola]

Glad to see some young folks avoiding the cultural corporate coolaid and saving and investing in their own futures. It's discouraging, in the real world outside ER.org, MM, and the like to see that such folks are scarce as unicorns. On the other hand, someone has to pay the SS and Medicare for us ER's...

+1. It's not only discouraging but painful, surprising and awkward to grow older (I'm 50) and witness a sort of reckoning happening with nearly everyone around us, whether older people (never saved and now their only real assets are home equity and SS); peer (often living well but paycheck to paycheck and about to fall behind as bright kids select private universities); younger (spending everything, even cashing out IRAs for consumption).

Basically, I see people I care about and who are often massively talented making choices that will require them to work until they drop, which is a painful aspect of becoming relatively wealthy that none of my studying toward FIRE prepared me for. I've wanted to be wealthy enough not to work my whole life and DW and I have spent our whole careers learning about it, delaying gratification, and taking action to achieve it. That's usually what it takes and hardly anyone else in my real life is oriented that way. We are Unicorns, indeed, even Oddballs, it seems, and lately I constantly have to control and stifle my internal dismay and unpleasant judgment. Serenity Prayer time, I guess.

 

[ChiliPepr]

The guy wrote a "woe is me because of the system" story, when the reality is it should've been a "woe is me because I'm a financial disaster".

Nope, he wrote a "Woe is me" article because someone would pay for it...

Why the hell don't they teach "basic financial common sense" at school.

Look at the number of people who cannot do basic math after high school...

 

[jimbee]

Is that a character flaw?

No, it's a preference.

(We avoid certain marques because people will assume we are young and Chinese! Old geezer would be an improvement...)

I buy the marques I prefer, I don't know why I should care what other people think of my car.

 

[Fedup]

Also, the idea that older Porsche drivers are trying to prove something is perhaps not universal. For example, I have seen plenty of white haired guys climb out of their 911s, and then open the passenger door to a good looking attractively dressed and made-up 35 year old woman.

If there no buyers, there will be no suppliers.

And there is that special 911 engine sound.

Ha

That's what they are hoping for. I never saw the young babe with the old geezer. Not around here. In my neighborhood, the Chinese foreign buyers are the one with very expensive cars, I think some of them are even more high end cars than Porsche.


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[Danmar]

No doubt that's true in some cases. But perhaps a few such elderly Porsche owners don't care about other people's opinions and simply want to enjoy driving a fun car.

Once you've already achieved FI, I see nothing wrong using surplus $ - of course, always pay cash for 'toys' - on personal indulgences (chattels or experiences). You can't take it with you.

Absolutely. I am a young looking 65 but my hair is almost pure white. Old geezer? Who knows. But I enjoy driving and can afford expensive sporty cars and have several and always pay cash for everything. I am not trying to impress anyone. Just like to drive fast. Not sure why people are so judgemental re what other people buy. Some people can actually afford their toys but if it makes others feel better to assume they are in debt up to their ears, I guess they will. I certainly wouldn't presume to offer advice about what others should do with their money, as long as they don't overspend and even then. Oh, I often have such a babe get out of the passenger side but she is my very good looking spouse.

 

[Milton]

Fuerdai

In my neighborhood, the Chinese foreign buyers are the one with very expensive cars, I think some of them are even more high end cars than Porsche.

Same story in Canada.

 

[FreeBear]

+1. It's not only discouraging but painful, surprising and awkward to grow older (I'm 50) and witness a sort of reckoning happening with nearly everyone around us, whether older people (never saved and now their only real assets are home equity and SS); peer (often living well but paycheck to paycheck and about to fall behind as bright kids select private universities); younger (spending everything, even cashing out IRAs for consumption).

Basically, I see people I care about and who are often massively talented making choices that will require them to work until they drop, which is a painful aspect of becoming relatively wealthy that none of my studying toward FIRE prepared me for. I've wanted to be wealthy enough not to work my whole life and DW and I have spent our whole careers learning about it, delaying gratification, and taking action to achieve it. That's usually what it takes and hardly anyone else in my real life is oriented that way. We are Unicorns, indeed, even Oddballs, it seems, and lately I constantly have to control and stifle my internal dismay and unpleasant judgment. Serenity Prayer time, I guess.

Thanks Markola, this reflects a big source of my sadness and frustration. Maybe this is not true for the working poor, but it is seems true for most of our close middle class friends. It's painful to behold in large part because these issues could have and should have been avoidable by simple LBYM, at least for our friends who worked hard and earned at least average wages for decades.

I've turned this issue over in my mind somewhat and tentatively conclude that this middle class financial "crisis" is more of an emotional/psychological/spiritual (depending on inclination) problem than an absolute lack of earning power. I see it as emotional emptiness/immaturity/greediness, again depending on one's perspective. I'm learning, still learning, that perhaps all I can do is continue to spend quality time with these friends and take the money issue off the table, except when asked. I have much more time for quality relationships in FIRE, but patience is a challenge. As you've found, this is easier said than done...

On the other hand, I have grown more charitable regarding real poverty, as defined by the absolute, not just relative, lack of food, water, health care, education, and even simple sanitation (toilets) around the globe, esp. throughout much of the 3rd world. One of our goals in ER is increased support of grass roots (often church based) initiatives to resolve these issues on a local level. As suggested throughout this thread, the big challenge is determining what can and should be changed. So FIRE has kept us busy so far

 

[kcowan]

Oh, I often have such a babe get out of the passenger side but she is my very good looking spouse.

This is a thread about things! Leave DW out of it!

(See you in the photography thread...)

 

[kcowan]

One of our goals in ER is increased support of grass roots (often church based) initiatives to resolve these issues on a local level. As suggested throughout this thread, the big challenge is determining what can and should be changed. So FIRE has kept us busy so far

During our time yearly in Mexico, we find that the working poor are very proud. They do not want charity. It takes a fair amount of finesse to give them more than they request.

 

[Mulligan]

Absolutely. I am a young looking 65 but my hair is almost pure white. Old geezer? Who knows. But I enjoy driving and can afford expensive sporty cars and have several and always pay cash for everything. I am not trying to impress anyone. Just like to drive fast. Not sure why people are so judgemental re what other people buy. Some people can actually afford their toys but if it makes others feel better to assume they are in debt up to their ears, I guess they will. I certainly wouldn't presume to offer advice about what others should do with their money, as long as they don't overspend and even then. Oh, I often have such a babe get out of the passenger side but she is my very good looking spouse.

Sorry Danmar, as we get older we tend to kick the can down the road when questioning if we are geezers. To keep a constant reference point we must always ask a 20 year old what age is a geezer. And I think we all know what that answer is for all of us over 50 here.

 

[Tandemlovers]

I listened to an Onpoint WBUR podcast during my walk this morning during which Neal Gabler discussed his plight:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2016/04/27/middle-class-and-cash-poor

He did not really discuss how he ended up cash poor, and he seemed to appreciate the comments of the few callers who identified with his troubles.
He didn't blame anyone but himself, but it was hard to feel much empathy for him after reading some of the comments on this forum regarding his court judgements.
I came away with the impression that he overspent to be able to impress or keep up with a certain set.
He rather self righteously (at least it seemed to me) said his dreams were modest: a nice house, decent car to drive, the ability to educate his two daughters, but failed to mention where his daughters were educated, and chose instead to rail about how book advances are structured, and that the IRS no longer allows a self employed taxpayer to average their income so that they are not hit with a big tax bill in one year.

 

[Milton]

I listened to the podcast; thanks Tandemlovers for posting the link.

He should indeed be ashamed of chronically living beyond his means, and his numerous uncollected judgments. And I agree that his definition of "middle class existence" is more "gold plated" than "aluminum plated" (to use his terms): he doesn't own a "reasonable home … $250,000", and sending "kids to college" doesn't have to include Stanford University tuition rates.

P.S. I don't get the references within the introduction to "rage", "anger" and "fury". As FreeBear points out, poverty levels are much worse in the Third World, where many would be hard-pressed to find $20, let alone $400. Globalization is gradually evening this out: the USA has no monopoly on intelligent, hardworking, ambitious people.

Americans should be less selfish and acknowledge that while their standard of living has been falling slightly, this is due to an international levelling and is overall a good thing.

 

[jazz4cash]

Thanks Tandemlovers....I used your link to listen to the podcast also. This guy sure is getting a lot of run from this piece so he's definitely struck a nerve.

I don't get how the parents that paid for his children's tuition only had a '97 Avalon for him to inherit. He may have seriously impaired thier finances.

His gripe about taxes.....so you get a big lump in one year and pay a jacked up marginal rate. You live off that for the next year or two and your income in the subsequent years is 0 so you pay no income tax.....instant income tax averaging.

The survey question (Could you find $400 to pay for an emergency?) would have different result if the question had been "Could you find $400 for (insert extravagant purchase or activity here)"?

 

[Milton]

His gripe about taxes.....so you get a big lump in one year and pay a jacked up marginal rate. You live off that for the next year or two and your income in the subsequent years is 0 so you pay no income tax.....instant income tax averaging.

Wouldn't you pay less tax overall if you received the income spread equally over two or three years? I think he is probably right about that.

On the other hand, I don't know why he couldn't negotiate the advance being paid over two or three years rather than all at once; the publisher might well have preferred such arrangement. Who knows what really happened, but I would not be surprised if he was greedy and jumped at the chance for a lump sum, without even considering the tax implications ... by his own admission, he is terrible with money.

 

[papadad111]

Eventually his passport might be revoked, at least, based on proposed new rules by the IRS for those with unpaid tax judgments.

I would like to see authors like this "exposed" and embarrassed.

Why the IRS didn't foreclose? Primary residence rule ?

 

[robnplunder]

Indeed. Did he choose that knowing it is his passion and temporary --in that his parents will provide a nice backstop by way of fat inheritance some day to shore up the savings ... ?

I've seen that happen - choices are made my looking at the total environment.

No, he didn't. B/c we knew that we will only have one kid, we raised him to be independent, and didn't spoil him. He wants nothing to do with our money and has been independent right out of college. He also has been saving. Unlike us, he isn't materialistic. He said he is happy to live on bare minimum.

 

[jazz4cash]

Wouldn't you pay less tax overall if you received the income spread equally over two or three years? I think he is probably right about that.



On the other hand, I don't know why he couldn't negotiate the advance being paid over two or three years rather than all at once; the publisher might well have preferred such arrangement. Who knows what really happened, but I would not be surprised if he was greedy and jumped at the chance for a lump sum, without even considering the tax implications ... by his own admission, he is terrible with money.

You might pay a bit more but likely less if you pay 0 every other year or so. It seems like the publisher would prefer to spread the payment out. In any event it's not something that affects a lot of middle class folks.


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[growerVon]

The survey question (Could you find $400 to pay for an emergency?) would have different result if the question had been "Could you find $400 for (insert extravagant purchase or activity here)"?

GREAT point! The $400-600 was likely found to get the next smartphone... of course, it was "found" by way of Visa.

 

[bj1111]

..


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