The Case against Retirement

[audreyh1]

I mentioned this topic and forum and he told me the reason he continued to work was he didn't want to spend all day at home with the DW!

When I retired I had an FI colleague who continued to work because he didn't want to be home with his kids all day!

Audrey

 

[Walt34]

...the reason he continued to work was he didn't want to spend all day at home with the DW!

There's one of those with the police dept. I retired from, with over 50 years there now. He set a new departmental record. Twenty years ago he could have retired and made more money selling t-shirts out of the back of a pickup truck. But he also has about the lowest-stress job available - court coordinator.

 

[Dawg52]

Here's a recap of my retirement for the last few weeks. Golf game suffering as a result, but still beats the heck out of working.

YouTube - Sounds of Rain and Crickets

 

[FUEGO]

But, law firms, especially large ones, only makeup a fragment of the legal profession. There are also the small/solo practitioners, government lawyers, public interest, and in-house lawyers, which are all very different environments.

As to the question of 60-70 year old lawyers voluntarily retiring, I think they have self-selected the sample of 60-70 year old lawyers. By the time they are 60 and still practicing law, they have probably been at it for 35 years. If they aren't burnt out by then, then they probably love it. My guess is that over the decades, the people for whom the passion to practice law was not present left the law firms for greener pastures. Only 6 years out from law school for me, and I have already seen some folks slowing it down a notch by going from firms to government or in-house, or some non-practicing corporate role. And others who have stated this slowing-down as a goal. Those who survive the trial by fire and don't mind the stresses of practicing at a big firm are exactly the people most likely to want to do it forever.

 

[Independent]

Studs Terkel said it better than anyone I've heard in his 1972 book, Working. He deals with the two seemingly oopposite sides of working: the degrading, destructive side and the side that is meaningful and nourishing. Mostly interviews with a group of people from all walks.

The Chicagoans in the group probably remember him. A great read.

Reading all the comments above, I think this is the key to many.

If your job has lots of the "meaningful and nourishing" you will probably want to continue, especially if you can arrange part-time and flexible hours.

If your job has lots of "degrading, destructive", you want to get out as soon as possible.

There was a poll on this board last year on the topic "What made you pull the cord?" (or something like that). The common thread that I saw was people quit when something happened that shifted the balance from the m&n above to the d&d.

Genesis has a great take on this. Adam had a job (he was the gardener) even though he lived in paradise. When he got kicked out, he did the same kind of work, but now the "thorns and thistles" would afflict his work. I often thought of that when I was working and had to deal with those human thorns.

I was happy to retire because I was tired of playing the "protect your career from the newest CEO" game. But, I would have continued working, even at that company, if I could have gotten about half my pay for parttime work on projects that I chose.

 

[FUEGO]

Another slightly different semantic slant on the original article's wording (I should disclaim that I didn't read the thing. My blood pressure was pretty low yesterday and I'd like to keep it that way.): "I want to keep working because I want all this consumerist junk in my life and I can't figure out a way to keep paying the credit card bills without a j*b."

I wonder if the same number of respondents would have indicated a desire to continue working if they would have posed the question as follows: "If you could receive your same pay and benefits as at your current employer by simply sitting on a beach all day lounging around, sipping margaritas, and observing scantily clad young beauties, would you still want to continue working your old 9-5 job?"

 

[teejayevans]

For some it's not about the job, it's about doing something else.
TJ

 

[MasterBlaster]

If your job has lots of the "meaningful and nourishing" you will probably want to continue, especially if you can arrange part-time and flexible hours.

Or to paraphrase E.J.Zelinski...

Besides the obvious benefits of income and (possibly more) income security work provides:

1) A sense of purpose

2) Structure in your life

3) A sense of community

These are the things that the article was refering to or should have referred to.

It's not all about the money.

 

[Rustic23]

I don't deny that all three may be what keep some working, but for me, and I'll wager many on this board;

1) A sense of purpose - I was not my work. Being a good husband and dad was enough purpose for me, and still is.
2) DW provides plenty of structure around here
3) Coming from the military, a new community was formed about every other year. We have now formed a new 'retirement community'

So while I don't disagree that those may be things that keep some working, I still think security is their chief concern. (excluding the small percentage of Dr., Lawyers, and Indian Chiefs.)

 

[ksr]

If your job has lots of "degrading, destructive", you want to get out as soon as possible.

This describes the environment I was working in and the reason I needed to get out as soon as possible. It's sad, really, because I genuinely enjoyed the work on those rare occasions where I was able to just do the work without the ill effects of the environment.

But the upside to it is that it spurred me on to figure out what I needed to do to escape at the earliest point and time, and I have no regrets now.

 

[unclemick]

Or to paraphrase E.J.Zelinski...

Besides the obvious benefits of income and (possibly more) income security work provides:

1) A sense of purpose

2) Structure in your life

3) A sense of community

These are the things that the article was refering to or should have referred to.

It's not all about the money.

First it was beat the Ruskies. Then they pumped us full of bull about the new frontier.

But us old time en-ga-neers came to realize the truth:

First engineer to invent a truly reliable workable toilet for space - would go down in history alongside the wonders of the world and among the greatest achievements of man.

They're still waiting.

heh heh heh - BTW Trust me-I'm serious on this one. .

 

[misanman]

Maybe it's genetic

Hmmm, my dad went to the office nearly every day up until he died at 85. My brother is still working at 78. At 63 I enjoy my job and can't quite imagine not doing it.

So maybe there's a genetic component.

I realize, though, that at some point I probably won't have a choice.

 

[freebird5825]

W*rking til advanced age because you have to, versus enjoying a FIRE lifestyle, is a good thing?
Helloooooooooooo <valley girl voice>

I think I just saw a pig flying overhead. Yes, indeed it was Porky Pig tooling around in his twin seater single prop aeroplane. He saved up all those Loony Toons royalties over the years and retired early

 

[rescueme]

Well, here's a guy who turned 102 and still is humping it:

Brazil's 102-year-old architect spends 'crap' birthday - Yahoo! News

 

[Khan]

For every 'happy healthy feisty' 80 year old employee; there is someone in their 50s or 60s with all sorts of hereditary crap. I am of the latter group.

Just glad I could retire at 54.

Oh: there is not not a lot of identity tied up with work with those of us who were just cube rats.

 

[kumquat]

I believe the FI in "FIRE" is what it's all about. If you like working, by all means continue.

Two anecdotes:
When my dad went to tell his GF that my elder sister had been born, he found him cleaning out his barn. That's right, still an active farmer at 100. Don't know if and when he quit but he made it to 105.
My GM's brother practised law until his upper 90's. I think his reasons were:
1) No other interests. His DW had been dead for 50 years.
2) Family time. He had two GSs as partners.
3) Depression era thinking. You can't have enough when the next crash hits.
He didn't want to retire. He chose to because his secretary did. She had worked for him for 50 years and he didn't want to "break in a new one". He lasted 6 months, then died. I think if he hadn't retired, he'd still be alive, and aged about 130.

YMMV, but it's all about doing what you want to do, not what you have to do.

 

[traineeinvestor]

Yahoo finance has a post on the same topic: 10-reasons-you-shouldnt-retire: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

Only items #1 (health) and #6 (social life) are of potential concern to me. Given awareness of the issues, I'm hoping that I will have no problems addressing them when the time comes.

4 years, 15 days to go. Sigh......

 

[Delawaredave5]

While working, I figure there's about 50 "really living hours" in a week (4 hours each worknight, 15 hours each on Sat and Sun).

That's not very many "really living hours" !!!

So I personally don't care how seemingly interesting or satisfying a job may appear - few full time jobs deserve/warrant such dominance of one's precious life if you don't have to work.

Love that quote, "I never heard of anyone on their deathbed saying 'I wish I would have worked more' "

 

[rescueme]

Love that quote, "I never heard of anyone on their deathbed saying 'I wish I would have worked more' "

Or, one of my favorites...

 

[ziggy29]

The whole "case against retirement" is based on two things, I think: the availability of jobs for every capable person who needs one and an end to rampant age discrimination.

As long as unemployment is high, someone who is FI and holds on to their job might be keeping another person unemployed who may need the j*b a lot more. And as long as there is age discrimination, it becomes less likely that someone who loses a job above, say, age 50 will find another one even if they'd prefer to keep w*rking.

So as long as these are still in play, the case for retirement remains.

 

[scrabbler1]

Yahoo finance has a post on the same topic: 10-reasons-you-shouldnt-retire: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

Only items #1 (health) and #6 (social life) are of potential concern to me. Given awareness of the issues, I'm hoping that I will have no problems addressing them when the time comes.

4 years, 15 days to go. Sigh......

LOL that list in the Yahoo article told me more reasons for retiring early than for not retiring early. Specifically,

(1) Health - NOT being around sick coworkers and sick people on the trains has made me less likely to get sick.

(2) Marriage - I am single so that one means nothing to me. In fact, not working enables me to spend more time with my ladyfriend.

(3) Delay taxes - Are you kidding? My tax bill is vastly reduced since I stopped working. No FICA taxes, nearly no income taxes.

(4) High SS checks - Okay, my SS will be lower by not working more years. But, the SS benefit formula repays only 15 cents of the wage dollar in the highest bracket (i.e. bend point). So the benefit reduction will not be a whole lot.

(5) Work adds meaning to your life - I like telling people about my volunteer work and my hobbies more than I liked telling about my work. My (former) work was difficult and time-consuming to explain and usually went over the head of the listener.

(6) Your social life - I just about never attended events with my coworkers. I had one or two friends I would talk to or have lunch with sometimes. But I did not want to do other stuff with them, as I had nothing in common with them. I just wanted to get away from them at the end of the day. Being retired so I have more time to do my volunteer work and hobbies (and time with the ladyfriend) has improved my social life.

(7) Health Insurance - In my last 17 months of working, I reduced my weekly work hours from 20 to 12, making me ineligible for group health. So even if I kept working, I'd have to still pay for my own HI. I protested their policy vehemently, offering to pay 100% of the premiums. No dice. It was a secondary reason I retired.

(8) Society needs your skills - I did that in my last few years of working. In my volunteer work, I am passing on my skills, too. Just different skills.

(9) Job perks - When I switched to 12 hours per week, I lost nearly all of my remaining perks. Only the company stock (ESOP) remained, and it tanked at the end of 2008 and into 2009. So retiring in 2008 before it tanked was a way to preserve my remaining perk (and fund my retirement income).

(10) Haven't saved enough - No problem for me, as I had about $300k of my own plus $300k from the ESOP and another $235k in the 401(k) rolled into an IRA. Take the money and run, shielding it as much as possible from taxes, and retire.

 

[traineeinvestor]

Here are some comments I put on my blog in response to the Yahoo article:

To put a different perspective on the table, here are some reasons why we should retire:

#1 You can afford it. If you have worked hard for a number of years, enjoy it. You've earned it. Why wait?

#2 You're not getting any younger. Your life span is a finite sum. Each day is a resource you can only spend once. Do you want to spend more of your finite days in the office or on the beach? Let's face it - no one ever died regretting not spending more time in the office

#3 You don't need more. Enough is enough. Seriously - if you need more money, fine keep working. If you have enough stop. If you can never have enough, get some therapy. Get a life

#4 You will get old. Your health will deteriorate. There are some things which most of us can only do while we are young and in good health. The longer you delay retirement the greater the risk that physical or mental deterioration will mean that you will never get around to them

#5 Priorities. People matter. Family. Friends. Others. Very few people can legitimately claim that their job is a priority item. Give priority to the things (people) that matter

#6 Personal interest. Most of have a list of things we want to do. Whether we make up a list and whether we call it a bucket list or not, it's there and maximising the part of your life spent in the cube farm has no place on the list. Why not get on with it?

#7 Physical health. Quitting the rat race means you have more time. Time to spend getting in shape. Go biking. Hiking. Swimming. Get out and smell the daisies before you start pushing them

#8 Stress. Some people thrive on it. Personally, I could survive very well without it. If the office is a stress generator, it's time to move on

#9 Mental health. There's no argument that the office can provide mental stimulation. But there are lots of other places you can find the mental equivalent of daily brain exercises - and get some refreshing variety into the bargain

# 10 Giving back. Call it the quest for meaning if your like. Retiring gives you more time to give something back. It's hard to spend your days volunteering at the SPCA if you're chained to a workstation

Of course, I could say that retiring early is good for the economy - by stepping down you open up a job opportunity for someone else - but I have taken the selfish approach and confined my list to personal reasons.

Any others?

 

[Katsmeow]

Love that quote, "I never heard of anyone on their deathbed saying 'I wish I would have worked more' "

I once told someone a variation of that quote "I wish I would have spent more time at the office." His response? There are plenty of people who say "I wish I had provided better for my family."

This conversation was over 20 years ago and the person speaking to me is now over 60. He does not plan to retire and loves, really loves, working. Which is something that works well for him.

 

[unclemick]

I once told someone a variation of that quote "I wish I would have spent more time at the office." His response? There are plenty of people who say "I wish I had provided better for my family."

This conversation was over 20 years ago and the person speaking to me is now over 60. He does not plan to retire and loves, really loves, working. Which is something that works well for him.

Ying and yang - sort of like 'do I pay off the mortgage threads' - a reasonable amount on both sides?

Eh.

heh heh heh - Now that I'm rapping up ER (49-66) doing nothing with style and moving into 'normal retirement' range - do I reframe my Curmudgeon certificate, get a job I er ah 'love', start a business, or Hmmmm - .

 

[audreyh1]

Here are some comments I put on my blog in response to the Yahoo article:

To put a different perspective on the table, here are some reasons why we should retire:

That was very good traineeinvestor! Much better than the yahoo article IMO.

I can't believe the yahoo article called out not spending more time with your spouse a reason not to retire. Huh? OK - so you and your spouse have different goals, don't like to do the same things, don't like to spend much time together, and don't have anything to talk about other than your separate work lives.

Solution - avoid retirement, keep working so that those issues don't have much impact on your personal time and you can ignore your marital problems. Huh?

IMO all these articles looking like fishing expeditions for why being forced to keep working because you can't afford to retire maybe isn't all that bad.....

It's the last one "Haven't Saved Enough" that is the only one that really counts! The rest are just flimsy excuses.

Audrey