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Old 10-23-2010, 06:36 PM   #21
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IMHO not having to pay into Social Security far out ways the benefits that might be received.
Spoken as one blissfully unaware of the economic situation for the vast majority of older Americans before SS came into being...
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:27 PM   #22
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Spoken as one blissfully unaware of the economic situation for the vast majority of older Americans before SS came into being...
I am well aware of that situation and also well aware that the government does not manage money very well. I would have preferred to have paid into a program similar to CSRS during my career rather than SS. Much better return on the money with less risk of reduced benefits.
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Old 10-23-2010, 07:35 PM   #23
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Considering that even today, Social Security (and Medicare) make up the greatest component of retiree income for approximately 2/3 of SS recipients, I would have to say that the government does a better job of managing money than most individuals can. The CSRS you speak of, and the FERS of which I am a part, are also government-managed.

Now there is no doubt that some individuals can make out alright on their own managing money. You are likely one of them. I hope I am as well, as evidenced by my participation in this FIRE forum. But unfortunately, many will not. That's what SS is designed to do. And don't forget, the intention of SS was never to be the sole, or even primary, source of retirement income. That's something far too many Americans don't understand.

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I am well aware of that situation and also well aware that the government does not manage money very well. I would have preferred to have paid into a program similar to CSRS during my career rather than SS. Much better return on the money with less risk of reduced benefits.
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Old 10-23-2010, 08:21 PM   #24
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Stoutboy,

I do not deny SS serves a much needed role. My only point is that the funds one would put into CSRS (or the early railroad retirement system) would return more money to the individual than if it were put into SS. Do I think that is fair? No! Part of the payments into SS effectively is a welfare tax and I do not believe that some people should be exempt from paying their fair share.
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Old 10-23-2010, 09:46 PM   #25
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Stoutboy,

... Part of the payments into SS effectively is a welfare tax and I do not believe that some people should be exempt from paying their fair share.
i did a couple of quick internet searches and found that in 2006 (the latest year i got numbers) there were more people paying into SS (159.7 million) than filing federal income tax returns (138.4 million).
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Old 10-23-2010, 10:44 PM   #26
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A few responses to comments:

A military reserve pension at 60 is based on what percentage you have of a full 20 year career. Even though the retirement system has changed a few times and is now roughly back to where it was originally, after 20 years of service military retirees receive 50% of their basic pay. If they were an 0-5 and their highest annual pay was $80,000 a year (just an example), they would receive $40,000 a year less any survivor's benefit they elected. Reservists receive points for each day they are on active or reserve duty as well as points for courses they take - I believe a full 20 year active duty career is worth 7,320 points. If an 0-5 reservist retires with 3,660 points, they would receive 50% of the normal retiree's 50%. That would be $20,000 less any survivor's benefit elected. It's not really this simple, but it's close enough for government work. Something to keep in mind is that active duty military also receive tax free housing and food allowances, which do not continue in any form after retirement.

While it's true that CSRS retirees who do not have 40 quarters of SS contributions over a certain amount will not receive any SS, those who have more than that number of covered quarters will receive a benefit. The amount will depend on how many years of contribution they have made plus all the usual rules. However, and this is a big one, CSRS retirees who have less that 20 years of full SS contributions of some minimum level will be penalized about $380 a month in 2009. That amount goes up each year until you claim SS. After 20 years, the penalty drops until it's 0 after 30 years of substantial contributions.

These are simplistic explanations of complex situations, but it is possible for a retired CSRS employee to collect a federal annuity, a reserve pension and some level of SS. Oh yeah, TSP also .
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Old 10-23-2010, 11:16 PM   #27
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These are simplistic explanations of complex situations, but it is possible for a retired CSRS employee to collect a federal annuity, a reserve pension and some level of SS. Oh yeah, TSP also .
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:03 AM   #28
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These are simplistic explanations of complex situations, but it is possible for a retired CSRS employee to collect a federal annuity, a reserve pension and some level of SS. Oh yeah, TSP also .
however a retired CSRS employee didnt get any matching funds in the TSP. also for him/her to get SS s/he had to work at a job subject to FICA (not the CSRS job) and for the SS benefit to amount to much it is likely the FICA job couldnt be some part time job for just a couple of years.
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Old 10-24-2010, 01:37 AM   #29
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Is a military reserve pension amount the same as a military service pension?
In a word, no.

In a bunch of words:
The military's active-duty pension is based on (1) a minimum of 20 years of active duty (with a few exceptions, mostly for medical issues) and (2) starts paying when you retire.

The Reserve pension is based on (1) 20 qualifying years of service, during each of which the Reservist achieves some minimum number of points for any combination of drill weekends, correspondence courses, "two weeks a year", mobilization, or any of literally 30 other types of orders for duty, and (2) starts paying out at age 60.

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A military reserve pension at 60 is based on what percentage you have of a full 20 year career. Even though the retirement system has changed a few times and is now roughly back to where it was originally, after 20 years of service military retirees receive 50% of their basic pay. If they were an 0-5 and their highest annual pay was $80,000 a year (just an example), they would receive $40,000 a year less any survivor's benefit they elected. Reservists receive points for each day they are on active or reserve duty as well as points for courses they take - I believe a full 20 year active duty career is worth 7,320 points. If an 0-5 reservist retires with 3,660 points, they would receive 50% of the normal retiree's 50%. That would be $20,000 less any survivor's benefit elected. It's not really this simple, but it's close enough for government work. Something to keep in mind is that active duty military also receive tax free housing and food allowances, which do not continue in any form after retirement.
It's not very easy to explain, either. The Reserve pension uses the service multiple of 2.5%/year, but the length of service is calculated from points. For some reason the DoD instruction's calculation of years is "#points/360". The equivalent of 20 years would be 7200 points, but I suspect that the majority of Reservists retire with about 3000-5000 points. That gives them a pension of 20%-35% of base pay... not 50% (or higher) and not immediately.

Spouse had nearly 18 years of active duty, so she started her Reserve service with a point count of 6500+. Then over the next seven-plus years she put together another ~900 points through a variety of different types of drill weekends, orders, & billets. All of the orders lasted less than 30 days (she was never mobilized) but she did a lot of them. So her final point count is 7404 and her "years of service" is 20.56 for a 51.4% base-pay pension. However while my pension started paying out the day I retired at age 41, she has to wait until she turns age 60.

Another wrinkle on the "base pay" is that it's the base pay when they turn age 60, not the base pay when they apply to retire. For example spouse retired from the Reserves at the end of 2008 and won't start her pension until 2022. Her pension will be calculated from the pay scale in effect in 2022. (Military pay may or may not exceed the CPI, let alone the ECI, for the next 12 years.) Once she starts collecting that pension then she's on a CPI COLA.

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I know someone who retired from the military as an O-4, then joined the reserves and was promoted all the way to O-6. He's fully retired and over 60 and I wondered if he really is pulling in a full O-6 pension....
Well, sorta. I'm not familiar with this situation, which I understand is far more common in the Air Force than the Navy, but here's what's probably happening:
He retired from the service at 20 years and promptly started collecting 50% of an O-4's base pay.

When he joined the Reserves, his pension was "stopped" for the days that he was doing Reserve duty. When he was on Reserve duty he was accumulating points (see my and MartyB's explanations in that other thread) and he was getting paid for the rank of O-4, or O-5, or O-6... whichever rank he was when he was doing Reserve duty.

At some point DoD would have to recognize his higher rank in his active-duty pension. I don't know how that worked before he retired from the Reserves... whether he had to stick with the O-4 pension during the years he was in the Reserves or whether it became an O-5 pension and then an O-6 pension. You're way into esoteric niche territory here and frankly I'd have to ask the Reserve retired-pay guru at the Navy Reserve Association Association of the U.S. Navy.

I'm guessing that when he filed for a Reserve retirement then the DoD would officially recognize his higher rank (if they hadn't already) and would "upgrade" him to an O-6 pension based on his 20 years of service. But he'd still be getting an active-duty pension that started out at 50% of the base pay of the year he retired from active duty, so I'm not sure how they'd raise his pension to reflect his promotions-- the O-5 pay scale in effect the year he made O-5? In any case his pension (for whatever rank) would still rise with its annual COLA (which for 2010 and 2011 has been zero).

When he reached age 60 then DoD would add in his Reserve points to get his new YOS number (probably something like 21-22 years total) for a 52%-55% O-6 pension based on the pay scale in effect when he turned 60. And the pension continues to rise with its COLA.

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Tricare really is a good deal. I have a relative who is very overweight, has many diabetic complications, and sees doctors and specialists constantly. She married a military retiree, so all her care, even extensive dental care, is free. Sometimes I think she might take better care of herself if they had to pay for it...that's a touchy subject, though.
Tricare does not include dental insurance, although it can be purchased separately. (The military retiree dental insurance is not always a good deal and we don't carry it.) Her diabetic complications may be covered under a VA or Medicaid program or her dental issues may have been determined to be connected to her diabetic (medical) condition.

I don't know whether it applies to her, but Type 2 diabetes has also been determined to be a service-connected disability caused by Agent ORANGE exposure, usually in Vietnam.
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:39 AM   #30
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Actually it's 7% of gross.
Only 7% gross is required for CSRS, which is not any higher than the percentage paying into the social security system. The benefits, however, are significant between the two.

SS:
You have to be at least 62 to collect at reduced benefits. Full social security starts at age 66 with a maximum benefit of $27,876 (in 2010 $) per year for a single person and 1.5 times this amount for a married couple. To receive the maximum benefit would require earning the maximum FICA salary (which is $106,800 in 2010) for nearly your entire career.

CSRS:
Depending the number of years of service, one can receive up to 100% of the average of the highest three salaries + cost of living adjustment + medical benefits -- what a deal!!!!!
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Old 10-24-2010, 10:59 AM   #31
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From the Army side of things, I have never heard of a 20 or more year AD retiree become a reservist (though the opposite happens all the time) and then have their pension recalculated at 60. Not saying it's not possible, but I have never heard of it. I don't really see the purpose. A 20 year retiree can go back on AD voluntarily or be recalled (to age 60) involuntarily and would be given pension credit for extra time served. During the 90s there were a number of AD folks who retired with 15 years of service at a reduced pension and there may be different rules for them.

As Nords says, the complexities are immense and it's easy for even personnel specialists to unaware of some of the rules.

BTW, OPM (Office of Personnel Management) is so overwhelmed with civil service retirement requests that it can take 6 months to a year for retirees to receive their full pensions. In the meantime, they receive an average of 60% of the estimated final amount. Lots and lots of folks complaining about that. I left in 2003, so it's not an issue for me . It took OPM 3 months to get my pension on track.
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Old 10-24-2010, 11:26 AM   #32
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"CSRS:
Depending the number of years of service, one can receive up to 100% of the average of the highest three salaries + cost of living adjustment + medical benefits -- what a deal!!!!!"

I don't think so . The reality is that, for the less than 20% of active federal employees remaining in the gov who are under CSRS, their minimum retirement age is 55 with 30 years for service. At that point they will receive 56.25% of their high 3 salary. If they choose a survivor annuity at the max amount (55%), 10% will be subtracted from their pension. If they retire prior to 55 and 30 because of an early out due to reductions in force, organizationial move (as in MD to GA, etc.) or any other reason (wanting to retire is not a reason), they are penalized 2% for each year they are under age 55. They also lose whatever years they have not earned under 30, so it generally comes out to a 4% a year loss. They cannot receive a pension under these circimstances unless they are age 50 with 20 years or any age with 25 years of service. They can retire at age 60 with 20 years and at age 62 with 5 years, but their pensions are much lower due to so few years of service.

The max they can receive is 80% of their high 3 plus unused sick leave with about 41.5 years of service. At that point they are working because they love the work, not because of the money. Military service counts only if you buy back the years of service for 7% of your military pay plus interest (this is complicated - if you do not buy back your military service and become eligible for SS at 62, whether or not you claim it, you lose those years fo service for pension purposed - called the Catch-62 - lots of folks get caught in that trap). There are different rules for those who served prior to 1956, but I doubt there are many of those folks still working for the government.

I don't really understand most of the FERS rules (the retirement system in use since 1984), but the pensions come to about 1.2% for each year of service based on your high 3. There are very different age points and much higher early retirement penalties.

Again, this is very simplified. The reality is far more complex. There is no way any CSRS retiree can earn 100% of their salaries. If they max out at 41.5 years and never, ever, use a day of sick leave, they could add maybe 1.5 years to the 80%, which would come to about 83%. In fact, the vast majority of CSRS retirees retire at about age 60 with just over 30 years of service with an average pension of about 60% of their high 3.

Still a great deal, but not available to new hires for the past 26 years.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:03 PM   #33
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From the Army side of things, I have never heard of a 20 or more year AD retiree become a reservist (though the opposite happens all the time) and then have their pension recalculated at 60. Not saying it's not possible, but I have never heard of it. I don't really see the purpose. A 20 year retiree can go back on AD voluntarily or be recalled (to age 60) involuntarily and would be given pension credit for extra time served. During the 90s there were a number of AD folks who retired with 15 years of service at a reduced pension and there may be different rules for them.
As Nords says, the complexities are immense and it's easy for even personnel specialists to unaware of some of the rules.
Looks like it's far more common in the AF, but I don't understand why a retiree would want to join the Reserves either-- unless it's all the shared camaraderie and regular contact with wingmen.

When spouse was XO of the PACOM Navy Reserve unit she had a perpetual problem with PACOM civil-service and contractors who were Reservists in her unit and present for the drill weekend, but who would sneak away to their civilian desks to catch up on a few things, or bring their civilian job's paperwork into Reserve training. (It was never more than one or two but it was persistent and annoying.) A person like that might be tempted to join the Reserves after an active-duty career because they have no real reason to retire.

A USNA grad from my company retired from USMC in 1999 (20 years to the minute) and embarked on a bridge career as an electrical engineer at an electrical plant. He tried to get mobilized after 9/11 but no one would support it. In 2004 he finally wangled a recall to active duty for the Marines' Battle of Fallujah. His special skill for the recall was to drop the electrical grid just before the shooting started, which was apparently accomplished with enthusiastic application of large amounts of explosives. Then when the fighting died down, he spent the rest of 2004 putting it back together.

When spouse was in the Reserves she noticed that the Army and the Marines would frequently bust sanctuary for their Reservists, and even the Air Force would do so occasionally. However the Navy considered it anathema and would actively work against their Reservists to make sure it never happened... even demobilizing them during the middle of medical treatment.
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Old 10-24-2010, 12:14 PM   #34
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Nords and Beowulf, thank you for the detailed explanations. Only on this board could we find a) a civilian who even wants to know about such things and b) the combined expertise to explain them.

I guess I like to see people get whatever goodies they are entitled to, and if that happens to be 3 or 4 pension streams, then more power to 'em.

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Old 10-24-2010, 12:48 PM   #35
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Thanks, Amethyst. The best advice for anyone in the military or federal government (probably applies to everyone everywhere) is to become your own personnel manager. Know the rules, know what you are entitled to, know all your benefits and, most importantly, keep copies of every piece of paper or electronic record you receive. When I retired from DoD, I went in for a pre-retirement records review - I was sure surprised to learn that an entire 2 year period of service I had with the Army as a civilian had disappeared . Luckily, I had the paperwork to prove it and received credit .
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Old 10-24-2010, 01:28 PM   #36
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Only 7% gross is required for CSRS, which is not any higher than the percentage paying into the social security system.
CSRS also pays 1.45% into Medicare
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Old 10-24-2010, 02:40 PM   #37
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Only 7% gross is required for CSRS, which is not any higher than the percentage paying into the social security system. The benefits, however, are significant between the two.

SS:
You have to be at least 62 to collect at reduced benefits. Full social security starts at age 66 with a maximum benefit of $27,876 (in 2010 $) per year for a single person and 1.5 times this amount for a married couple. To receive the maximum benefit would require earning the maximum FICA salary (which is $106,800 in 2010) for nearly your entire career.

CSRS:
Depending the number of years of service, one can receive up to 100% of the average of the highest three salaries + cost of living adjustment + medical benefits -- what a deal!!!!!
Not quite correct....the maximum CSRS pension is 80%, and that point is reached at 41 yrs, 11 months of service. There is no further increase in percentage for working past the 41 yrs, 11 months. The only thing you can do to give yourself more pension money is to make what they call Voluntary Contribution Payments, which is basically using your own earned income to purchase a further anuity. Not that many people do this, but it's available. But again, the max CSRS pension is 80%, and I'm not working long enough to get there! lol My current supervisor, however, is getting pretty close to that figure now...
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Old 10-24-2010, 02:48 PM   #38
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A few responses to comments:


These are simplistic explanations of complex situations, but it is possible for a retired CSRS employee to collect a federal annuity, a reserve pension and some level of SS. Oh yeah, TSP also .

This describes my situation exactly!
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Old 10-24-2010, 02:51 PM   #39
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[QUOTE=beowulf;992046]From the Army side of things, I have never heard of a 20 or more year AD retiree become a reservist (though the opposite happens all the time) and then have their pension recalculated at 60. Not saying it's not possible, but I have never heard of it. I don't really see the purpose. A 20 year retiree can go back on AD voluntarily or be recalled (to age 60) involuntarily and would be given pension credit for extra time served. During the 90s there were a number of AD folks who retired with 15 years of service at a reduced pension and there may be different rules for them.

As Nords says, the complexities are immense and it's easy for even personnel specialists to unaware of some of the rules.

QUOTE]

I've seen this happen in the Air Force Reserve. I don't think it's happening a lot, but I've seen it. I have personal knowledge of one of these cases right now.
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Old 10-24-2010, 02:56 PM   #40
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Well...I guess I should have read the latest posts from beowulf & I wouldn't have had to comment on a couple of them. Sorry about that! Also...I did forget to mention the part about the ability to add any unused sick leave to the pension equation. When I retire, I'll be 55, with just under 36 yrs.
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