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Old 01-06-2019, 11:24 AM   #41
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There probably is, but the fraud alert I received was for the number on my debit card, which is unique and different to my bank account number.
Please re-read what I wrote.

I said that I think there are ways for scammers to generate the number on your debit card, not your bank account number.

I think it is less common than the other forms of debit card number theft, but I thought it existed.

In other words, you may have done nothing wrong and may have never had your debit card number taken from your card. They just generated numbers that passed the validity checks, and tried them until they hit one that worked, and it happened to be yours.
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Old 01-06-2019, 11:48 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by SecondCor521 View Post
Please re-read what I wrote.

I said that I think there are ways for scammers to generate the number on your debit card, not your bank account number.

I think it is less common than the other forms of debit card number theft, but I thought it existed.

In other words, you may have done nothing wrong and may have never had your debit card number taken from your card. They just generated numbers that passed the validity checks, and tried them until they hit one that worked, and it happened to be yours.
Wow.
Pretty impressive to get an exact match of that very long number on my debit card. I certainly didnít realize such mechanisms existed.
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:21 PM   #43
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Alan,

You are correct your situation is a weird one - and I agree with the posters that there may be some shenanigans at the bank. SecondCor is right, too, in that someone could just set up a program to run through a series of numbers and hit the jackpot, so to speak.

With regard to contact-less, I have not been a big proponent of that, however, I know that in many places overseas. you don't have much choice but to use the technology deployed. I had lived in Europe before the US had the chip/pin cards and had all my banking cards converted over to chip/pin early. However, unfortunately in the USA, most vendors and banks have not opted for the PIN portion of that technology, so it is not as safe as it could be.

I like how in Europe the merchant brings the card reader to you (especially in a restaurant), you watch them key in the amount, they hand it to you, you type in the PIN and then the receipt is printed. It's all fairly transparent and the card is not out of your possession and/or sight.

With regard to ATMs, I am like the poster here who uses it when traveling overseas for cash. I find that more convenient than using a credit card all the time. I only use the debit card to take out cash (US and foreign) and not for anything else.

In any case, I hope you are able to find out what happened and and early welcome back on your trip to America!!!
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Old 01-06-2019, 01:39 PM   #44
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Alan,

You are correct your situation is a weird one - and I agree with the posters that there may be some shenanigans at the bank. SecondCor is right, too, in that someone could just set up a program to run through a series of numbers and hit the jackpot, so to speak.

With regard to contact-less, I have not been a big proponent of that, however, I know that in many places overseas. you don't have much choice but to use the technology deployed. I had lived in Europe before the US had the chip/pin cards and had all my banking cards converted over to chip/pin early. However, unfortunately in the USA, most vendors and banks have not opted for the PIN portion of that technology, so it is not as safe as it could be.

I like how in Europe the merchant brings the card reader to you (especially in a restaurant), you watch them key in the amount, they hand it to you, you type in the PIN and then the receipt is printed. It's all fairly transparent and the card is not out of your possession and/or sight.

With regard to ATMs, I am like the poster here who uses it when traveling overseas for cash. I find that more convenient than using a credit card all the time. I only use the debit card to take out cash (US and foreign) and not for anything else.

In any case, I hope you are able to find out what happened and and early welcome back on your trip to America!!!
Thank you. We are looking forward to our trip.
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Old 01-06-2019, 03:50 PM   #45
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Make sure to put Lock (Freeze if possible) on all 3 credit bureaus just in case someone tries to open new account under your name.
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Old 01-06-2019, 04:24 PM   #46
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So the th8ng I wonder about with a fraudulently cloned debit card is whether that allowed them to bypass the PIN.

When I use Apple Pay abroad, I don’t have to key in any PIN but if it’s above a certain amount, I will have to sign for the transaction.

Otherwise, the merchant isn’t even getting my true credit card number.

I haven’t tried using a debit card with Apple Pay, just credit cards.

So if they stole the debit card number, maybe they didn’t necessarily have the PIN for that card but with a low enough transaction, they wouldn’t have to provide a PiN?
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:02 AM   #47
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Make sure to put Lock (Freeze if possible) on all 3 credit bureaus just in case someone tries to open new account under your name.
Thanks. I did that years ago.
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Old 01-07-2019, 04:03 AM   #48
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So the th8ng I wonder about with a fraudulently cloned debit card is whether that allowed them to bypass the PIN.

When I use Apple Pay abroad, I don’t have to key in any PIN but if it’s above a certain amount, I will have to sign for the transaction.

Otherwise, the merchant isn’t even getting my true credit card number.

I haven’t tried using a debit card with Apple Pay, just credit cards.

So if they stole the debit card number, maybe they didn’t necessarily have the PIN for that card but with a low enough transaction, they wouldn’t have to provide a PiN?
Contactless cards don’t require use of the PIN, that is why they are limited to $50 max per contactless transaction. More than that requires the PIN. I use Applepay and never use any card as contactless. My credit card is set up with my Applepay.
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Old 01-07-2019, 11:35 AM   #49
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I worked in banking years ago and while I can't remember the specifics now, the first four digits of a *credit card* signified Visa/MC/Discover, etc, the second four signified something else that escapes me at the moment, the third four signified your banking institution (each institution had its own number), and the final four ARE completely random. At least, that's how it was done about 15 years ago. Also, I may have confused the second and third set, but all four numbers were not random (back then). I do think that when I left the industry, they had moved to the last six being random, so the institution's number may have changed somewhat to accommodate that. Also, we didn't have the 3-digit code on the back at that point in time, either.

Debit card numbers were somewhat similar in structure, but back then, they were only ATM cards.

As for how OP's number was compromised, it could be a program, as others have suggested, or the place where the revolving charge (a charity, I think it was?) cold have been hacked, releasing those numbers.

I remember a story out of Canada a couple of years ago where one guy kept getting his number stolen and the bank didn't understand what was going on. They sent his card overnight and there were charges on it before he even got it. Then, the bank manager hand delivered it to him "hot off the press" so to speak, and there were charges on it. Turns out, an investigation revealed some hacker had discovered that institution's number-generating code and got the numbers randomly. Something like that. I was floored.

All in all, there is just no telling how these crooks get our numbers anymore.


Edited to add link:
Here is the link on the story I mentioned above. It's called "sequencing fraud" and is from 2015.

"Sequencing Fraud on 9 CIBC Visa Cards Like 'Groundhog Day' for Ottawa Man"

Fraudsters have technology to compromise both card numbers and 3-digit security codes, expert says.https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/seque...-man-1.2989611

I've not posted a link before so let me know if i need to make changes to this post. I tried to give some info but I'm not sure if I did it right.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:38 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by always_learning View Post
I worked in banking years ago and while I can't remember the specifics now, the first four digits of a *credit card* signified Visa/MC/Discover, etc, the second four signified something else that escapes me at the moment, the third four signified your banking institution (each institution had its own number), and the final four ARE completely random. At least, that's how it was done about 15 years ago. Also, I may have confused the second and third set, but all four numbers were not random (back then). I do think that when I left the industry, they had moved to the last six being random, so the institution's number may have changed somewhat to accommodate that. Also, we didn't have the 3-digit code on the back at that point in time, either.

Debit card numbers were somewhat similar in structure, but back then, they were only ATM cards.

As for how OP's number was compromised, it could be a program, as others have suggested, or the place where the revolving charge (a charity, I think it was?) cold have been hacked, releasing those numbers.

I remember a story out of Canada a couple of years ago where one guy kept getting his number stolen and the bank didn't understand what was going on. They sent his card overnight and there were charges on it before he even got it. Then, the bank manager hand delivered it to him "hot off the press" so to speak, and there were charges on it. Turns out, an investigation revealed some hacker had discovered that institution's number-generating code and got the numbers randomly. Something like that. I was floored.

All in all, there is just no telling how these crooks get our numbers anymore.


Edited to add link:
Here is the link on the story I mentioned above. It's called "sequencing fraud" and is from 2015.

"Sequencing Fraud on 9 CIBC Visa Cards Like 'Groundhog Day' for Ottawa Man"

Fraudsters have technology to compromise both card numbers and 3-digit security codes, expert says.https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/seque...-man-1.2989611

I've not posted a link before so let me know if i need to make changes to this post. I tried to give some info but I'm not sure if I did it right.
Really interesting story... link worked fine
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:11 PM   #51
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Have had about one a year for the past four years all credit card. The latest was a person using my card to buy airline tickets on frontier on the east coast. I disputed within 15 minutes of the time it hit because I was in my account when the CC company sent the fraud alert. We froze it and replaced the card and then Frontier proceeded to fight the CC company saying it MUST BE ME and the proof that they sent had my card and the name of the traveler who wasn't me. I again said it wasn't me to my CC company and then looked up the name and address of the person listed on search and found a string of newspaper articles on all of the frauds this person had been arrested for in his home town. CC went back to Frontier and it still insisted but CC company removed from my account . What bothered me most is all of this happened well in advance of the scheduled flights and Frontier said they couldn't pull the tickets once issued. BS to them
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Old 01-11-2019, 04:26 PM   #52
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what is a contactless card?
That is the words that the credit card people use to describe on line internet charges.... I asked about this yesterday to the card people ...
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Widespread fraud
Old 01-11-2019, 05:24 PM   #53
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Widespread fraud

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This morning I woke up to see a fraud alert from our US bank. We live in England and the alert was for 2 charges to our bank account using our debit card in a Safeway grocery store in Arizona. The charges were $50 and $4.58. I called the bank to confirm that it was not us and to cancel the card.

This was unexpected because we haven't been in the USA since September 2017 and we have only ever used that debit card to withdraw money from ATMs when visiting the USA. Talking with the agent she said the transactions were made using a contactless card. I also confirmed with her that we have no automated charges associated with the card. The only automated charges on that bank account is a direct debit to a charity, and that has been in place for years.

I have no idea how the fraudsters could possibly have found the numbers on that card to have created a contactless debit card. If I had used an ATM with a scanner or camera in September 2017 then the thieves have taken a long time to duplicate the card.

We also have US credit cards on that bank account and when I first saw the alert this morning it was the credit card account I looked at first, never even thought that it was the debit card.
Hello all ! Iím from Canada ( just north of Toronto )
I have been reading the papers and many articles keep appearing on how fraud has so so skyrocketed in Canada . I felt humiliated trying to prove that I actually existed when I applied for my pension ( just retired Oct 31, 2018 ) just a few months earlier . I felt that I had to prove my existence for the amount of documents they requested . They didnít ask for any proof ( because of fraud ) when they took pension deductions off my paycheque for 36 years ( full time ) or go out of their way to make sure that I was done wrong by !

Earlier I opened an account to put a large sum at a financial institution from federal bonds that had matured . By the time I left the bank , I felt violated . I had all my documents - ID etc but they kept prying to find out more and more .

I was at another branch earlier that week and overheard a women calling the police in an office ( the door was open) . Someone had attempted to get a cash advance with a fake drivers licence and I guess a fake credit card ( thatís small stuff ) .

Yesterday I read of increased kidnapping where the ransome is demanded to be paid in bit coin crypto currency . Many victims have already paid large sums to have their loved ones released .

I think as time progresses - criminals get smarter as they learn the financial institutions methods of security and this will continue til the end of time . Recently a coworker of mine discovered that someone had put a mortgage on title of their home thru fraud . It prompted me to put title insurance on my house . Another acquaintance of mine had her identity compromised .

Itís a jungle out there and I have no advice for anyone except ď Be Careful ď

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Old 01-11-2019, 08:32 PM   #54
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Did you ask if they had your name or just the debit card number?

Debit and credit card numbers are designed to be able to be an input to an algorithm with the result being a prederminted number. if it is not one of the numbers, they know immediately that it is fake. Each CC/Debit card company (Amex, Mastercard, Visa, etc) have their own algorithms and expected numbers.
Some crooks have figured out the algorithm and what the resulting number that would pass the "fraud check". So they create fake CC /debit cards with this a number that can pass the "test" and then put a fake name to make it look real. So, there's really no way to prevent this but since they would not have your name, they have not stolen your identity.
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Old 01-12-2019, 03:32 AM   #55
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That is the words that the credit card people use to describe on line internet charges.... I asked about this yesterday to the card people ...
This was not an online use of the card, it was used at the checkout of a grocery store in Arizona as a contactless card, no swiping or signature, and used to get cash which is a common way for some folks to get cash. Make a purchase, in this case $4.58 plus $50 cash. Since the card has never left my possession, only ever been used at ATMs I donít see how there was any opportunity to collect the security code on the back of the back which is needed when buying things online.

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Did you ask if they had your name or just the debit card number?

Debit and credit card numbers are designed to be able to be an input to an algorithm with the result being a prederminted number. if it is not one of the numbers, they know immediately that it is fake. Each CC/Debit card company (Amex, Mastercard, Visa, etc) have their own algorithms and expected numbers.
Some crooks have figured out the algorithm and what the resulting number that would pass the "fraud check". So they create fake CC /debit cards with this a number that can pass the "test" and then put a fake name to make it look real. So, there's really no way to prevent this but since they would not have your name, they have not stolen your identity.
I didnít specifically ask about that. I will if it happens again.
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Old 01-12-2019, 04:00 AM   #56
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Up until last night I had been quite happy about the bank's performance. Immediately alerting me of suspicious transactions (a small purchase in order to get $50 cash at the checkout at a Safeway grocery store) and putting a hold on the card until I called to confirm what was going on.

The charges have been reversed and I was waiting to receive my new card which the agent said would come via DHL in 4 to 5 working days and need signing for since it was an international address. They contacted me again last night to say that someone had tried to use the new card but had failed to verify it before use, so it now has a temporary block on it. After a lot of back and forth they admitted that the card had been sent to our old address, an apartment we lived in before moving to England. I informed the agent that the previous agent had told me the new card was being sent to my current address in England and that I was logged onto my account at that moment and the only 2 address on the account was my address in England, listed as both my correspondence and residential address. He said that there is also another address associated with the card and that address was obviously wrong and he was going to have to put me through to another department where they would update the address on the card and send out a new one. Yet another example of "un-normalised" databases in the IT world. Thank goodness I don't need this card until our visit to the USA end of February, even then it is not essential.

One amusing part of the conversation was when an agent said that he needed to verify my identity and wanted to do so by sending a code to my phone number on record for that purpose. He found it hard to believe that I was in England but the phone number was a US number, so I explained that it was Skype using VOIP, and that I was currently talking to him on Skype through my iPad and the caller-id he was seeing was my US number on record, but if he sent a code to that same number that I could answer it using the Skype app on my iPhone without having to drop his call. He sent the code and when I answered the call via Skype on my phone I put it on speaker so that he could hear the robotic voice speak the 5 or 6 digit verification code. I think he was suitably impressed.

The person I then spoke to update my card address obviously did not have access to my account so I had to verbally give him the new address which is always stressful as my NE English accent is much more pronounced these days. I expect that the making and sending out of the debit cards is outsourced to another company and when I made the change of address online last year the mechanism to update that company failed.
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Old 01-12-2019, 06:43 AM   #57
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The banks today are afraid to give anyone their very own money .

I canít imagine the fraud that has gone on in these banks .

I have worked 37 years in a government retail store and I have stories for you .

The one that takes the cake is when a certified cheque bounced . The stamp on the cheque was authentic and so was the cheque itself .
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Old 01-12-2019, 11:40 AM   #58
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IMO this kind of paranoia about debit cards is usually unfounded. We have debit cards from Schwab and from a megabank. In both cases the issuers have guaranteed to indemnify us 100% against fraud.
Call it paranoia if you like, but the fact remains that a debit card is tied to YOUR MONEY whereas a credit card is tied to the BANK'S MONEY. That's reason enough for me to not use a debit card...ever.

Banks can promise a whole bunch, but in the end...if they say "sorry, it's gone and there is nothing we can do" then what *real* recourse do you have?
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