Friends who didn't save . . .

[Meadbh]

And Gumby, your story is inspiring and humbling. Thank you for sharing it and for remembering your mother's awesome sacrifice for your future. You honor her so much by doing so.

+1

 

[NW-Bound]

Before I was born, my parents had been through some hardships that would make many of you cringe. And we suffered another "Black Swan" when I was in my late teen years. We survived and were able to rebuild our lives. Well, there were a lot of luck involved. But it still takes some work.

Imagine the following conversation.

Father to 20-yr old son: "Get off your ass. Turn off the TV and the computer. Go out to look for some work."

Son: "No way. I don't have the smart to get a nice paying desk job. Nor do I have the gene to let me toil at menial jobs".

Father: "Then go to school to learn some skills. I can help you."

Son: "You know I do not have that learning ability. I cannot concentrate when reading books or listening to instructions. My mind keeps wandering off to the stuff I have been watching and doing on the Web. It is not my fault that it happens".

Father: "I give up. Get out of my house."

Son: "Why are you so mean? It is not my fault you never pass to me any of the good genes. It may be because of the water you let Mother drink while she was carrying me, for what I know. Nope, I am staying here. If you want me out, you will have to call the cops."

 

[Zoocat]

Careful now. You are attacking one of the board's favorite pastimes. We may lack many things, but arrogance has never been one of those things.

Ha

Ha, I'm not attacking anyone, merely raising questions that I myself have pondered. Certainly I would be the first to admit to my own arrogance.

 

[simple girl]

When I was much younger I prided myself on having put myself through college and grad school, working part time, as a single parent with a bit of financial aid and scholarships thrown into the mix. I thought that if I did it, others could too.

Now as a much older, a little wiser, person, I realize that the same circumstances and events often affect people in different ways. Who knows why? I don't. And people are not always capable of overcoming obstacles, even though you would think from observing from your ivory tower than they SHOULD be able to pull themselves up.

Do we really know why some people don't succeed where others in similar circumstances do not? No, we don't. All we can do is speculate about their lives and the choices they made. And how arrogant is that? Assuming that we know what someone else's life is all about.

I feel the same way. I often have pondered why my life has turned out so much more successful and happy than some of my siblings, even feeling guilty about it. I've come to the conclusion that for whatever reason, I have been given the ability to cope with the stresses of life in a healthier manner. These coping skills have allowed me to make better decisions which have led to a happy, successful life. I feel very fortunate to have been given the ability to deal with stress better.

 

[haha]

Ha, I'm not attacking anyone, merely raising questions that I myself have pondered. Certainly I would be the first to admit to my own arrogance.

I don't think I said that you were attacking anyone- only a passtime. If you prefer, tell me what words you would prefer and I will change my post. My opinions are always for sale.

Ha

 

[Keim]

...My opinions are always for sale.

Ha

Senator Lieberman, is that you?

 

[Zoocat]

I don't think I said that you were attacking anyone- only a passtime. If you prefer, tell me what words you would prefer and I will change my post. My opinions are always for sale.

Ha

Yes, of course, I misread your comment. No need to change a thing!

 

[Martha]

Environment was the same. We were exposed to the same things in womb because Mom was very structured in her life. And we had the same circle of friends which was a by-product of living in a very small town. Parents ignored or yelled at us equally. We have similar intellectual abilities. What eventually made us different was our choices, not the environment. From those choices we gained experience which gave way to more choices. The evolution probably began somewhere around the 6th grade.

Sister made choices. I made choices. They were not the same ones.

No, your environment was not the same. Not possible. Your life is not your sister's life. And your environment interacts with your genetic makeup, which also is not the same, as Big Nick mentioned. If you had led your sister's life and had her exact makeup and exact experiences you would be her. You would have made the same choices that she made. How do you think you come to make choices anyway? All of our choices are caused, they don't come out of thin air. What we are is a complicated process of cause and effect.

 

[GregLee]

You choices are defined by your nature and your experiences.

That's just your theory, or an article of faith. It's not as though you, or anyone, could predict what choices a person makes, from his nature and his experiences.

 

[Westernskies]

That's just your theory, or an article of faith. It's not as though you, or anyone, could predict what choices a person makes, from his nature and his experiences.

I disagree. Your nature determines your conscience, your decisiveness, and risk/reward tolerance; your choices are shaped by your experiences, IMO.

 

[Martha]

This thread discussion reminds me of the famous marshmallow experiment from the early 1970s. Four to six year olds were given a marshmallow (or other chosen treat, like a cookie) and told that if they waited 15 minutes to eat the treat , they would get a second treat. About 1/3 could wait the entire 15 minutes, another 1/3 didn't make it the entire time and another 1/3 ate the treat right away.

What was interesting was the follow up years later. The delayed gratification kids got substantially higher SAT scores and generally were reported to be more confident and better able to concentrate than the kids who ate the treat right away. This choice made as a preschooler was a better predictor of SAT scores than IQ.


A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion
says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."

 

[Sarah in SC]

Martha's point is well-stated regarding that none of us really had the same exact environment and exposures as our siblings, simply due to the passage of time. No parent, however rigorously adherent to a pattern, could successfully duplicate the precise circumstances (and who would want to?) with one child as another.

This NPR story opened my eyes to what she referenced in her post, and helped me to realize why I differ so much from my siblings, especially my 3 years older brother.

Siblings Share Genes, But Rarely Personalities : NPR

 

[ERD50]

This thread discussion reminds me of the famous marshmallow experiment from the early 1970s. Four to six year olds were given a marshmallow (or other chosen treat, like a cookie) and told that if they waited 15 minutes to eat the treat , they would get a second treat. About 1/3 could wait the entire 15 minutes, another 1/3 didn't make it the entire time and another 1/3 ate the treat right away.

What was interesting was the follow up years later. The delayed gratification kids got substantially higher SAT scores and generally were reported to be more confident and better able to concentrate than the kids who ate the treat right away. This choice made as a preschooler was a better predictor of SAT scores than IQ. ...

Interesting. Maybe this indicates that our IQ tests don't measure the right things? Here, we call this 'delayed gratification', but maybe it really measures the ability to reason - these kids were able to reason that the delay provides total greater value (like LBYM does for so many of us). They didn't just delay the gratification because they are martyrs, or have more patience, they delayed it for a greater total value proposition. Maybe they would apply that reasoning ability to other areas as well?

But I don't really like marshmallows, so maybe I would have 'failed' for lack of interest. Maybe ER is correlated with marshmallow affinity? Maybe we need a poll? (ooops, I saw the cookie option - you got me, Thin Mints or Chocolate Chips, please!)

While I agree to a point with your 'natural ability' views, IMO you take it towards an extreme where one gets little credit for hard work (it was just their 'nature' to work hard). Maybe we should start another thread on this sometime?

-ERD50

 

[LARS]

This was "lucky" only in the sense in which good luck comes to those who study past midnight most nights.)

I have found that lazy and irresponsible people almost always claim that the well-off are "lucky" or dishonest.

LUCK is the residue of good design.

And you are correct, Loop Lawyer, most do not recognize this basic fact. Probably the reason State Lotteries are such big businesses and form a central plank of most folk’s retirement strategies.

 

[TromboneAl]

I've posted here about our spendy friends. To give you a feeling :

• 1.2 million-dollar-house
• All the lights are on all the time
• Three huge HDTVs -- Two are next to one another for watching multiple football games at once
• Lavish parties with prime rib and turkey -- enough food for 5 x the number of guests

He's a lawyer and she is a court reporter -- they work hard all the time.

Anyway, I just heard that they are selling their expensive house and downsizing.

 

[Purron]

I've posted here about our spendy friends. To give you a feeling :

• 1.2 million-dollar-house
• All the lights are on all the time
• Three huge HDTVs -- Two are next to one another for watching multiple football games at once
• Lavish parties with prime rib and turkey -- enough food for 5 x the number of guests

He's a lawyer and she is a court reporter -- they work hard all the time.

Anyway, I just heard that they are selling their expensive house and downsizing.

I bet you'll miss those parties! Could you and Lena have had an influence on them? You two manage to have lots of fun while living a modest life.

 

[TromboneAl]

I bet you'll miss those parties! Could you and Lena have had an influence on them? You two manage to have lots of fun while living a modest life.

I'm not much of a party person. Lena says she doesn't think our example has any influence, but who knows? I know that they work very hard and don't enjoy it. He commutes to San Francisco often. He also plays the slots at a local casino -- "but he's good at it, and usually wins" says his wife.

 

[TromboneAl]

Considering sibling differences... when in my twenties a friend exposed me to investing and LBYM. I got into it, read books, did research etc.

In the same situation, my sister, who shares the frugal genes, would never do that research or "get into it." More recently, I worked on explaining how she was wasting money on a financial adviser. She just couldn't quite see it.

I think that explains part of the difference between us.

 

[harley]

I've posted here about our spendy friends. To give you a feeling :

• 1.2 million-dollar-house
• All the lights are on all the time
• Three huge HDTVs -- Two are next to one another for watching multiple football games at once
• Lavish parties with prime rib and turkey -- enough food for 5 x the number of guests

He's a lawyer and she is a court reporter -- they work hard all the time.

Anyway, I just heard that they are selling their expensive house and downsizing.

Maybe they won't need those huge TVs anymore, and you could pick one up cheap.

 

[Alan]

The marshmallow test has been repeated, and while I can't find the reference right now, the funniest kid was one who actually sucked out the center so it looked as if it was still intact to get another one.

YouTube - Marshmallow test reproduced by Dr David Walsh @ wcco

 

[Alan]

The marshmallow test has been repeated, and while I can't find the reference right now, the funniest kid was one who actually sucked out the center so it looked as if it was still intact to get another one.

Here it is

Joachim de Posada says, Don't eat the marshmallow yet | Video on TED.com

 

[Loop Lawyer]

Their jealousy is not your problem. It's your sibling(s) problem. No amount of "economic outpatient care" (hat tip to The Millionaire Next Door) will remove it until they're willing to admit that their financial situation is a direct result of the choices they've made over many years. Perhaps they'll come to their senses in time to do something about it. Otherwise, they're in for a rude awakening when retirement comes. By that time (and having unsuccesfully convinced you to share) they'll start laying a guilt trip on their successful children to take care of them in their old age.

Couldn't agree more with what you are saying here, Mr. Gatsby.

Although I hope I'm wrong about this, in the case of my extended family I doubt that my siblings will have any "successful children" to hit up for money. The children to this point are every bit as free-spending as their parents.

It was not like that with ME: My mother's spendthrift ways virtually bankrupted the family and were a major inspiration for me to be as unlike her as possible. And my father agreed, as he eventually divorced her (in large part over her improvident spending) and then spent several years repairing his financial standing as an individual (unmarried to her). He was born in Appalachia and today owns two homes free and clear. She was petit bourgeois (although she would not know what that means), always looked down her nose at him, and today has trouble paying the rent. How very superior....

My wife, bless her heart, is every bit as frugal as I am: That we happen to be married to one another is no accident.

But my siblings married and remarried spouses who have the same ghetto mentality that they have -- spend every penny that comes in the door, the minute it appears -- and their children have basically been brought up to believe that being broke is normal while creating financial comfort is "Republican" (anathema in their world) and Scrooge-like. The "children" have borrowed a hundred thousand dollars per child to attend incredibly lackluster colleges and universities where they seem to major in surfing.

I wish I could say I'm making this up. But I'm not.

 

[TromboneAl]

The marshmallow test

The experiment showed that those who waited were more successful. However, there was nothing in that experiment that showed that teaching the kids to wait, or teaching them to understand "No" would make them more successful. That's what the video so glibly stated.

BTW, whenever we have crab, Jenny always collects all the crab meat until she's done shelling it, and eats it at the end. Not me.

 

[Alan]

The experiment showed that those who waited were more successful. However, there was nothing in that experiment that showed that teaching the kids to wait, or teaching them to understand "No" would make them more successful. That's what the video so glibly stated.

Al, if you check my post the only thing I commented on was the kid who ate out the inside to fool the testers, and I loved his comment that she probably turned out to be a banker. I just thought it was funny video.

I agree that the video did not speculate that self control could be taught.

 

[Bestwifeever]

The videos are adorable, Alan--and the outcomes aren't that those who could not delay gratification had trouble later, just that the one out of three who could delay it were later successful based on the following up the original experiment. Probably many of the children who could not wait also turned out to be successful.

In the first video Alan posted, there are identical twins. One could wait, the other could not. Interesting that in spite of having the exact same upbringing and a very limited number of variables in their lives at that age, they are still quite different.