Inexpensive Retirement in Southeast Asia

[kevink]

As Ha pointed out the degree of insularity in places like Thailand and Mexico is far greater than anything you'll find in the U.S. There's a great travel book (essential for around-the-world travel IMHO) by Edward Hasbrouck called "The Practical Nomad" where he goes into the reasons for this in some detail. Paraphrasing him, the third world is a place where financial capital is tight but they're rich in human capital. Another way of saying this: many people have almost no money, but as a native you're embedded in a very complex network of family and friendships that goes way beyond anything we have in the U.S., and while it takes knowing someone to get anything done, you pretty much always know someone.

"Family" in Mexico means not only your parents, grandparents and kids but all of your aunts and uncles and all of their kids, your godparents and their families and many others, all of whom are almost certain to live in the same village or town that you do. There's a complex web of reciprocal obligations and favors to be attended to at all times, holidays and fiestas virtually every month of the year, on and on. A person enmeshed in all of this and working 6 longs days a week and with 4-5 kids at home may want to be your friend (maybe), but often simply doesn't have the time or energy.

That's a whole different level of isolation than moving from one part of the U.S. to another. We take families living far apart and moving away for jobs for granted, while to people in traditional societies these things are unthinkable.

 

[nun]

It's easy to spot someone who comes to live off a community rather than in it and, unfortunately, expat retirees can see their new "home" as just a way to live an almost colonial lifestyle inexpensively. No wonder the local population can be standoffish. It's a two way street and if the expat lives in a little ghetto with other expats and doesn't participate in the community they are obviously not going to make friends.

My advice for the expat retiree is to live in the community, go to local bars, learn the language and culture, go to sporting events and actually contribute to the community in a way that goes beyond spending dollars.

 

[youbet]

We have Mexican communities, Cuban communities, Russian communities, Ukrainian communities, Chinese communities, Korean communities etc. Want to feel left out? Just be an unhyphenated American and move into one of these.

+1 Great observation Ha!

 

[Pete44]

I think fear of change is the biggest obstacle.

I think you have to have the right mindset going into a move like this. You need enough money. You need to be flexible and be ready to change the way you think about things. Change is difficult at first. BUT, it hasn't really been all that tough. As I think about it now, two years later, it was easy.

I've always been a guy who rolled the dice. Start with a visit.

 

[Gerbil Wheel]

Yep, marry a third-world citizen and expect a steady stream of extended family parading in and out of your home, even living with you.

On the other hand, it's very easy to have kids...instant babysitting, 24/7.

 

[Gone4Good]

Heck, this is even true if you're born in the US and move to certain US states.

Yup. My Aunt moved from New York to Charleston, SC twenty years ago to open a retail business that's been a fixture of the community for the past two decades. To this day she complains that many locals still consider her a Yankee.

 

[nun]

I moved to Boston 25 years ago. It's my home and I've integrated well, I go to Fenway and the Garden, support several local non-profits, am a regular with my friends at local bar and even speak with a Boston accent. I'd describe myself as a Bostonian, but not as an American.

 

[kcowan]

However, I don't minimize the difficulty of adjusting. After 25 years in the States and becoming a US citizen I am neither wholly British or American.

I think you will find integrating to be a challenge especially if you have fully embraced the American culture.

We have friends from Monterey CA who lived in Antequara, and their acquaintences were British. But in 3 years, they did not establish any lasting ties even though language was not a problem.

BTW the expat community does not have to be retired. Many still work.

 

[tmm99]

I think you will find integrating to be a challenge especially if you have fully embraced the American culture.

Some people go live in another country because
1) they love the culture, the people, the traditions, etc
2) they love the weather, scenaries, etc
3) there are more oppurtunities (jobs, education, etc)
4) it's cheaper to live there than where you are from

I get the feeling the only people who tend to integrate with the native is #1. It's possible you develop #1 over time, but that takes time and it may never happen. Same thing with the immigrants to the US 2-3 generations back (hanging around with, and marrying immigrants from the same country, same tradition, etc, etc)

I think most people tend to gravitate toward what's familiar to them - familiarity = comfort
Just an example, although it's not about moving to another country - Have you ever worked for a manager from another country/tradition? Rule change. It can get you off kilter.

 

[nun]

Just an example, although it's not about moving to another country - Have you ever worked for a manager from another country/tradition? Rule change. It can get you off kilter.

I've worked in university, defence and US Govt labs on international programs so there were always different nationalities around. My first job was working for am American (foreign to me at the time) with a group of people from France and Yugoslavia. Then I went to NASA and worked with mostly Amercans, but quite a few British and Japanese. Right now I'm working at a university and we just got a new Spanish grad student who was hired by a prof from Mexico to work with me, British, a New Zealand guy and a Chinese guy.....talk about UN

 

[skyvue]

Pete44 & KevinK,
Would an average looking 50 year old nice American man, with roughtly $4,000 per month income to spend, be considered a "catch" to the local women? Would they be agressively pursuing you or does it work like the States where the man would still have to approach the young ladies, ask her out, etc....?

Are the pubs and bars you attend, mostly just expat with a few locals or the other way around?

The thing I think I would miss the most is American sports. My primary hobby is watching the NBA, NFL, Colleg football, etc....on the tv at home or in the sports bars. Also would likely miss my Buffalo Wings! LOL

 

[kevink]

Hi skyvue,

I'll let Pete answer for Thailand.

In the gringo enclaves in Mexico at 50 you're a good 15+ years younger than the expat average (a friend in Ajijic refers to the most popular Karaoke bar there as "the place where the 80 year olds go to hit on the 70 year olds").

If by local you mean Mexican, in the Chapala area you'd probably find yourself going into Guadalajara (40 minutes away) to find a lively bar with a younger crowd, and as should be needless to say you shouldn't bother without having fluent Spanish. Financially speaking you'd be a "catch" for sure, but just remember that what you catch in this kind of society is not just the lovely lady but her entire family.

At Lake Chapala and in San Miguel de Allende at bars and restaurants you'll see a mixture of gringos and well-to-do Mexicans, with a big surge in the Mexican population on weekends and holidays. There's easy access to U.S. and Canadian cable and satellite sports programming and yes, hot wings, Domino's, Wal Mart and all the rest in these communities.

Hope this helps.

 

[Sandhog]

Pete44 & KevinK,
Would an average looking 50 year old nice American man, with roughtly $4,000 per month income to spend, be considered a "catch" to the local women? Would they be agressively pursuing you or does it work like the States where the man would still have to approach the young ladies, ask her out, etc....?

Are the pubs and bars you attend, mostly just expat with a few locals or the other way around?

The thing I think I would miss the most is American sports. My primary hobby is watching the NBA, NFL, Colleg football, etc....on the tv at home or in the sports bars. Also would likely miss my Buffalo Wings! LOL

You'll be a catch in any country where average monthly salary is about $500.00/month. That include most of southeast Asia and South America. My friend retired in Thailand, Pattaya two years ago and when I visited him, bar girls in their early 20's called him handsome man, sexy man, darling.... And I tell you when he was in the states, a woman in her late 60's won't date him. He was in his late 50's. I don't know what he gets for teacher's pension but he only spends half of his money and still able to live like a king according to him in $600/month water view condo. That's at 34 baht to $1 exchange rate. It should be slightly more since dollar has been continually declining against other currencies.

I wished that I had a pension so I could retire in Thai like my friend where young girls call me handsome man. But I like South America lot better. I don't like Thai food unless it's in NY. Somehow, in Thailand, Thai food don't taste the same as in NY. But Mexican food, I like in Mexico much better. Go figured.

 

[mh]

Hi skyvue,

I'll let Pete answer for Thailand.

In the gringo enclaves in Mexico at 50 you're a good 15+ years younger than the expat average (a friend in Ajijic refers to the most popular Karaoke bar there as "the place where the 80 year olds go to hit on the 70 year olds").

If by local you mean Mexican, in the Chapala area you'd probably find yourself going into Guadalajara (40 minutes away) to find a lively bar with a younger crowd, and as should be needless to say you shouldn't bother without having fluent Spanish. Financially speaking you'd be a "catch" for sure, but just remember that what you catch in this kind of society is not just the lovely lady but her entire family.

At Lake Chapala and in San Miguel de Allende at bars and restaurants you'll see a mixture of gringos and well-to-do Mexicans, with a big surge in the Mexican population on weekends and holidays. There's easy access to U.S. and Canadian cable and satellite sports programming and yes, hot wings, Domino's, Wal Mart and all the rest in these communities.

Hope this helps.

Catch a few chivas Guadalajara games and you may be a soccer convert
it's pretty impressive event.

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

I agree that some people make the transition well, but even amongst those that stay abroad there is often a feeling of "us and them" that prevents the expat from integrating into the local society and having a really fulfilling retirement. Getting involved with the local community makes life so much richer,

I agree the more involved one is in the culture and community the better life is. I expect expats, American or otherwise, differ greatly by where they live and why they chose that town and country. In my limited experience I've met those who have integrated and those who don't know a word of the local language because 99% of their contact with the locals is with service workers who speak English.

Also met many in the vast middle ground between these opposites. The middle ground type I've met most often are actively learning about the culture. They want to be seen by the locals as respectful of the people and it's culture. They want to be able to predict how their interactions will play out.

I wonder how many US expats support their local Mexican soccer team.

I wonder how many expats who like soccer support their local team. Its hard for an old sports fan to adopt a new sport. When traveling in the Dominican Republic I saw tourists and expats sitting on blankets, enjoying a picnic dinner as the day cools down toward dusk while watching the neighborhood pickup baseball game.

 

[Pete44]

Pete44 & KevinK,
Would an average looking 50 year old nice American man, with roughtly $4,000 per month income to spend, be considered a "catch" to the local women? Would they be agressively pursuing you or does it work like the States where the man would still have to approach the young ladies, ask her out, etc....?

Are the pubs and bars you attend, mostly just expat with a few locals or the other way around?

The thing I think I would miss the most is American sports. My primary hobby is watching the NBA, NFL, Colleg football, etc....on the tv at home or in the sports bars. Also would likely miss my Buffalo Wings! LOL

Sitting around a big table last night in the crowded Aussi Bar with my friends and their girls. The guys are all in their 50's. It was an unusual night because all the girlfriends were there. Looking around, I said to my buddy sitting next to me, "these girls are all beautiful." Average age, late 20's, slim, long black hair, model faces, really amazing.

You ask a girl out here by asking her, How much?"

There are many ways to meet woman here other than bars. Most of the woman around here are in "the game" one way or another. They don't call this the "Land of Smiles" for nothing.

Sex is easy, relationships are hard. The girls want to be taken care of and what they want to do is take care of their family. They want the security of a husband and they want children. Children because that will be their security in old age.

The two biggest problems here for expats are alcoholism and woman. The Aussis and Brits drink like fish and that's usually who I'm around. Almost daily I hear horror stories of woman taking guys to the cleaners. One day you find yourself out of the house, that's she owns because it's in her name, the car that was in her name sold and the bank account cleaned out. Or maybe the bar you bought for her is out of business because it only takes a month for a Thai to run a profitable business into the ground. Or maybe someone comes to the door looking to collect a million baht gambling debt. Lots of fun ways to lose it here.

My mantra is "Sexual compatibility is not love." I hear "She's different," a lot. Woman here have a different agenda than we do, that's for sure. It is very easy to forget that.

Yes at $4000 a month you would be a catch. That's 120,000 baht. I live well with a beautiful girl at 70k. Finding a girl isn't tough. The girls think we're all rich. You're not much different than any other "catch". Some of the more beautiful girls want more money. Maybe you could overpay some beautiful girl, build home for her Mama, take care of brother, buy new water buffalo, lots of ways to spend that extra baht.

All the American sports are available on either the TV or online. I get Directv "the ticket" (love the redzone channel) for the same price as in the US ($300?), online. It's available only outside the US. The little problem is the games start at 1 AM Monday. You can watch game replays in the morning. Hook the computer to the big TV screen with HDMI and you're in business. Sleep in the next day. Stayed up all night many times watching football. Cricket seems to be on the TV here 24/7. Horrible game. I think you'd find other interests here than watching sports.

There are 60 bars in my little town, all for tourists and expats. 10 miles away there are 300-500 bars in Patong, the big tourist town.

Fear not...buffalo wings are on the menu.

 

[lovinglife1]

Hello Pete. What city are you living in if i may ask? Phuket is a lovely place.

 

[Ozziedreamer]

Hello Pete44, ItDontMeanAThing and others that have made the early retirement move to Thailand

Have been a lurker for some time now but this thread really motivated me to post. Really enjoyed reading Pete's initial post and have also read the blog on living in Hua Hin - very enjoyable.

So a bit about myself. Have been working for the past 20 years, and went to Thailand in 2009 for the first time. A divorce after being married for 10 years did set me back quite a bit financially (as most divorces do in the Western world for men), but I am focussed on the present financial rebuild.

I guess you could say that getting sick of working for the man (and the banks) as well as taking my trip to Thailand has really changed my outlook on life and has got me thinking most days about an early retirement to Thailand.

Am almost 42 and would like to pull the trigger at 50, sell my house and move to LOS. At 50 would be eligible for the Thai retirement visa.

I expect at 50 I would have around $800k AUS in today's dollars after selling the house (this equates to about $800k US). At 60 I would end up with another $400k AUS from what we call superannuation (which I think you guys from the US call 401k I think). An inheritance of around $300k in todays dollars will also come my way some time in the next 25 years.

A extra sweetener about retiring to LOS is that if I sell up, I can call myself a non resident for tax purposes, meaning I only pay 10% tax (rather than around 25 to 30% tax). Assuming $800k cash at 5% interest equals $40k pa, minus $4k tax = $36k pa to spend (=$3k per month or 90k baht per month).

So some questions for you folk already living the dream.

1. Does this look like a reasonable plan? It needs to be bullet proof as I will never want to come back and work again.
2. Do you think that even with the likely continual improvement in living standards (and increased cost of living) over in LOS, I will still have enough in terms of the initial amount in 8 years time?
3. I think Phuket is looking the best bet for me. I am just after a laid back lifestyle, a bit of going out, but generally just relaxing. I dont want to live in a concrete jungle like Bangkok - would like a bit of nature close by, some greenery and either sea or mountains. A TGF wont hurt, but am aware of the pitfalls. Which of the three would be best with my budget and wants: Phuket, Pattaya or Chang Mai

 

[Nemo2]

Almost daily I hear horror stories of woman taking guys to the cleaners. One day you find yourself out of the house, that's she owns because it's in her name, the car that was in her name sold and the bank account cleaned out.

A guy on our Saudi project (thought he) was 'engaged' to a Thai girl....they were to be married, etc, and he fronted the money to buy a farm for her parents.
The minute the check cleared, she disappeared.......the only person who was surprised was him.

Most of the woman around here are in "the game" one way or another.

I recall sitting in our Riyadh singles cafeteria listening to a fellow who had just come back from R&R in Thailand talking to another guy who'd been there numerous times.
The newbie was saying that he'd met this girl....."She wasn't a hooker" he said "She works at the Tourist Agency"......the other guy replied "They're all hookers......some work out of bars, some work out of shops, some work behind the front desks of hotels......the end result is all the same, it's just the beat that differs".

 

[Gone4Good]

The newbie was saying that he'd met this girl....."She wasn't a hooker" he said "She works at the Tourist Agency"......the other guy replied "They're all hookers......some work out of bars, some work out of shops, some work behind the front desks of hotels......the end result is all the same, it's just the beat that differs".

Sad.

 

[Pete44]

1. Does this look like a reasonable plan? It needs to be bullet proof as I will never want to come back and work again.
2. Do you think that even with the likely continual improvement in living standards (and increased cost of living) over in LOS, I will still have enough in terms of the initial amount in 8 years time?
3. I think Phuket is looking the best bet for me. I am just after a laid back lifestyle, a bit of going out, but generally just relaxing. I dont want to live in a concrete jungle like Bangkok - would like a bit of nature close by, some greenery and either sea or mountains. A TGF wont hurt, but am aware of the pitfalls. Which of the three would be best with my budget and wants: Phuket, Pattaya or Chang Mai

A little about Visas here in Thailand. Thailand requires that you leave the country every ninety days. If you leave the country for any reason the 90 day clock starts again. There is a whole industry that revolves around quick outside the country visa runs. At 50 you can get a retirement visa and you only have to report in at the immigration every 90 days. If you leave the country the 90 day clock starts again. On a retirement visa, you can't get a work permit. Some friends who have businesses here don't get retirement visas for that reason.

Ozziedreamer you have plenty of money, a lot more than me. You'll live very well here on 90K baht a month. The oz dollar has taken a dive in the past, the baht seems to be getting stronger. No plan is bulletproof but the kind of money you're talking about has a big cushion at this point. You'll be able to do a considerable amount of traveling, probably own a car.

I like the ocean here in Phuket. There are many world class beaches. Pattaya is anything but a world class beach. A couple of hours from Bangkok, I was there once for a couple of days and couldn't wait to leave. Lot's of people like it. They can have it. Chang Mai is at the other end of Thailand from Phuket. No beaches but a lot of nice scenic areas around there. It's a favorite of the retirement community. Rent a house there for 12k, same house here 25K. Phuket is the most expensive place in Thailand. CM is also overcast for a couple of months a year because they burn rice fields.

I live in Kamala Beach. Kata, Karon, Nai Harn are all great places to live. Long term rentals for a nice condo with a pool by the beach should be under $800/mo. No reason to buy anything. Years of inventory of homes and they continue to build.

8 years from now? I can't even keep track of what day of the week it is. Yes life is improving for the Thais but....how to put this diplomatically. Not much thought goes into future thinking here. The "Buddha will provide" thinking will always get in the Thais way. It's always short term with poor planning. The corruption is not getting better. I think they'll continue to screw themselves for the foreseeable future.

Plan on vacationing here for the next few years and check out these places for yourself. You don't have to decide but you should start to get a feeling. And don't forget about the Philippines. Check out the areas around Cebu. The dollar goes a long way there.

 

[Pete44]

The newbie was saying that he'd met this girl....."She wasn't a hooker" he said "She works at the Tourist Agency"......the other guy replied "They're all hookers......some work out of bars, some work out of shops, some work behind the front desks of hotels......the end result is all the same, it's just the beat that differs".

Calling everyone a hooker isn't right. Patong or Pattaya is not Thailand. Most Thais don't have any idea what goes on there. They are overwhelmingly a conservative and modest people.

 

[ItDontMeanAThing]

Calling everyone a hooker isn't right. Patong or Pattaya is not Thailand. Most Thais don't have any idea what goes on there. They are overwhelmingly a conservative and modest people.

About that conservative nature. I've talked with foreigners w*rking here who confirmed what I've read. Few Thais who aren't poor will have anything to do with you on a personal basis if you're here for the bar girls. One ESL teacher has been in country 10 years, is fluent in Thai and has two kids with his Thai wife. Most of his business comes from private tutoring of kids who's parents expect will go to college. He says he NEVER goes into the tiny bar district here for any reason because being spotted could destroy his well earned reputation and thus his business.

 

[Nemo2]

Calling everyone a hooker isn't right. Patong or Pattaya is not Thailand. Most Thais don't have any idea what goes on there. They are overwhelmingly a conservative and modest people.

I'm presuming that, when the one guy said 'all', he was referring to the women that single men on R&R were likely to encounter.

Me, I've never been there....I prefer to be out in the bush in Africa.

 

[Nemo2]

Calling everyone a hooker isn't right.

Most of the woman around here are in "the game" one way or another.

Hmmm.