The Ben Stein Pass/Fail Test

[clifp]

TikiToast had a slightly different impression of him a few years ago:
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/keeping-it-simple-ben-stein-27292.html#post510728

Nords, how did you remember that 3.5 year old post? It was an interesting perspective. I am sure she was right Ben is a very smart guy, and enjoys making sure everyone else knows it. Still it doesn't change the wisdom of his advice. I think the difference between Door #1 and Door #2 is to not spend more than 85-90% of what you earn.

 

[Nords]

Nords, how did you remember that 3.5 year old post? It was an interesting perspective. I am sure she was right Ben is a very smart guy, and enjoys making sure everyone else knows it.

Well, it was pretty memorable considering the contrast between Stein's public character & private behavior-- especially the insecurity. Luckily it came up on a search pretty quickly.

Too bad, too; it makes it much easier to shoot the messenger. At least he's not shilling for annuities as the ultimate one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[clifp]

Back on the topic of the two doors. In reality, there are many door in between Stein's Door #1 and Door #2. I've been retired for 2.3 years and feel that I live a Door #1 lifestyle. I enjoy taking a major trip every year (we went to Europe this year; we're going to Antarctica in January), owning (outright) two homes, and having other Door #1 luxuries of life. But these things are luxuries; I don't really need them. I could live happily retired without them. In fact, most people shouldn't even shoot for Door #1 and certainly shouldn't settle for Door #2, but they should shoot for, say, Door #1.5 or #1.6, on the continuum between Stein's two doors.

You raise a good point it doesn't need to be a binary choice. Still I think a huge reason we are in the economic mess today is because I lots of people choose door #2 although not deliberately. Their attitude was I can't be broke, I still have checks in my checkbook, available credit on my credit card, and equity in my home and by God I am going to spend it. (Yes of course they were encouraged by greedy bankers and Wall Street.)

The consequence of too many of our fellow citizen going through door #2 is to screw up the whole system for everybody else.

 

[RonBoyd]

You raise a good point it doesn't need to be a binary choice. Still I think a huge reason we are in the economic mess today is because I lots of people choose door #2 although not deliberately. Their attitude was I can't be broke, I still have checks in my checkbook, available credit on my credit card, and equity in my home and by God I am going to spend it. (Yes of course they were encouraged by greedy bankers and Wall Street.)

So says a Survivor.

The other side of that coin is that Door #2 was, without doubt, the wisest choice for the great majority of us who didn't live to a ripe old age. Door #1 only benefits those whose "Wheel of Fortune" stops on "A Healthy Uneventful Life."

(Of course, I do thank those who strived for Door #1 and didn't make it... I truly appreciate their contribution to my largess.)

 

[kcowan]

I think of Ben Stein as a sycophant. Smart but misguided. Here is a sampling of google on "ben stein wrong"
"ben stein wrong" - Google Search
Videos - Free video downloads and streaming video - CNET TV
IPBiz: Ben Stein's wrong on "not getting into college of your choice"
YouTube - Ben Stein
Peter Schiff vs. Ben Stein : Greg Laden's Blog
I could go on and on but I have been down that road back when it counted.

 

[Milton]

You are having a test for the first 40 or so years of your work life.

Personally, I don't plan on a work life of 40 years ... and I assume that goes for most other people on this board.

Agreed on the "no dumb lawyer" comment. Plenty of law school grads (probably not from Yale) may not be the brightest, but the bar exam usually weeds them out.

I've been in private practice for a fair number of years now, and I disagree. Most lawyers are reasonably intelligent, but there are certainly some dimwits out there.

As Martha says, there are intelligent people and stupid people in virtually all occupations. Although one is perhaps more likely to encounter a smart lawyer than (e.g.) a smart truck driver, there are exceptions in both cases and the bar exam is no guarantee of intelligence (any more than any other written test is).

 

[FUEGO]

I've been in private practice for a fair number of years now, and I disagree. Most lawyers are reasonably intelligent, but there are certainly some dimwits out there.

As Martha says, there are intelligent people and stupid people in virtually all occupations. Although one is perhaps more likely to encounter a smart lawyer than (e.g.) a smart truck driver, there are exceptions in both cases and the bar exam is no guarantee of intelligence (any more than any other written test is).

I agree that many can lack common sense and seem like dimwits. Definitely a lot that make bad decisions (womanizing, alcohol, suicide, sleazeballs, etc).

I thought the bar exam was pretty challenging personally (but I waited to take it till 5 years after finishing law school). Half essays and half multiple choice in my jurisdiction. Lots fail. There may be a few that passed it with IQ's a little below the median intelligence level, but it is hard to imagine a truly dumb person passing the exam that I took. Of course stranger things have happened, and bar exams vary by state and have varied in content and difficulty over time, so YMMV.

I am not actively practicing law, but come into contact with a lot of lawyers in my social network. Don't personally know any dumb ones. I guess they wouldn't make the cut to enter my social network anyway!

 

[Martha]

Fuego, yes the bar exam is hard and learning various professions is hard. But smart people make thinking errors all the time. I think that well educated people have to be extra careful in not assuming that just because they know a lot in one area does not make them an expert in another. And everyone has their biases that they reinforce all the time. For example, well regarded college professors that have a weird blind spot and speak with authority on something they know nothing about such as John Mack, the Harvard medical school professor who is the champion of poorly done research on alien abduction. And, just because you did well in school and take tests well does not mean that you are suited for your profession.

 

[TromboneAl]

Great thread. It has given me a new perspective on Ben Stein -- IPOS = Intelligent Piece of ^&*%. But I do find him very funny and amusing.

In the above Craig Ferguson clip he says things are fine and we'll never have another great depression in our lifetimes. I'm not saying he was wrong, but it's interesting that the clip was in April of 2008:

​

 

[Walt34]

There's a myth in US culture that life depends entirely on personal choices. Were it only that simple.

Yes, things can happen. One can become seriously sick or injured for example.

But one SIL (aka "Spendarina" in our house) is under the impression that she and hubby can live on hubby's National Guard pension. This the pair that is in their 50s and still living paycheck to paycheck, recently took out a cc consolidation loan, then went on a week-long trip. This is the one who said when she lost her job a month ago "Well, (BIL) will just have to work more overtime". Lord forbid the princess should reduce her spending.

This is also the one who is getting vaguely resentful/jealous because some of her friends are retired, she's nowhere close and she knows it. And the sad thing is, she has no idea why.

So in 10 years or so when they're living on rice & beans because that's what a NG pension and SS will buy I will have no sympathy for her.

 

[TromboneAl]

Whatever you think of Stein, that text that MasterBlaster posted is a great motivator, and I'll bet it convinced at least one young person to change his/her ways.

 

[NW-Bound]

I saw Ben Stein on TV ads a few times, but that was it. I do not watch much TV, hence did not know he was that well-known and such a controversial figure. I guess ignorance is bliss, when it comes to this stuff.

About calling someone an idiot, I have refrained from that as I get older. Most often, it is simple ignorance, and who among us knows everything?

Bigotry is really something else though. But even then, good grief! I would have to call anyone who disagrees with me on anything an idiot. There are just too many of them out there.

 

[RonBoyd]

[Idiots] There are just too many of them out there.

Well... Yeah.

 

[Milton]

For example, well regarded college professors that have a weird blind spot and speak with authority on something they know nothing about

When I was teaching law part-time, I was included in the university's list of "experts", which was made available to the media. Although my areas of (supposed) expertise were clearly indicated, I received numerous calls from reporters who wanted me to comment on other topics of which I had no knowledge. What was bizarre was that they were in no way discouraged when I pointed this out. It was apparent that they simply wanted to fill air time or column inches, and the quality of the content was essentially irrelevant.

 

[Westernskies]

There are idiots everywhere. I know first hand idiot lawyers and idiot doctors. I am sure that there are idiot engineers. I know professionals that have severe mental health issues which impaired their work.

One name immediately comes to mind....

 

[chinaco]

...
I've been in private practice for a fair number of years now, and I disagree. Most lawyers are reasonably intelligent, but there are certainly some dimwits out there.

....

Most people that move into graduate level education are generally intelligent.

There is probably a normal curve... likely skewed in the professions... such that they are above the norm compared to the general population because of education level.

However, it all depends on the subject matter! A smart lawyer can be an idiot in other areas... even in their own life decisions.

What makes one appear smart to those that are not in a profession is ignorance of the important details!


I know plenty of half competent technical and engineering people, I have no doubt that the same patter prevails in other professions.


This comment is not targeted at you... in every job, profession, whatever... the truly capable people can spot a mediocre peer quickly. If one believes most in their peer group is "really good"... chances are they are dead square in the middle of of being mediocre themselves... unfortunately they are in denial or worse... don't know the difference.

IMO - it often does not come down to brilliance, but one's drive and enthusiasm for their job or profession. Most mediocre people are that way because they spend more time trying to avoid something rather than embrace the challenge! Often the root cause is laziness or a profession mismatch.

 

[Tigger]

About calling someone an idiot, I have refrained from that as I get older. Most often, it is simple ignorance, and who among us knows everything?

I would love to add this to my wise quotes collection, if you don't mind being quoted once in a while.

 

[kcowan]

What was bizarre was that they were in no way discouraged when I pointed this out. It was apparent that they simply wanted to fill air time or column inches, and the quality of the content was essentially irrelevant.

That is what gets Ben Stein in trouble. He comments on things for which he has no training. And people quote it as if he is insightful. Just because he achieved some fame in some past life.

 

[Onward]

He comments on things for which he has no training. And people quote it as if he is insightful. Just because he achieved some fame in some past life.

Hang on. He has an economics degree from Columbia and was valedictorian at Yale Law School. He's got plenty of credentials to tackle economic and personal-finance issues.

He's made some goofy commercials, but I think he's just a good capitalist. Go Ben!

 

[NW-Bound]

Most people that move into graduate level education are generally intelligent.

There is probably a normal curve... likely skewed in the professions... such that they are above the norm compared to the general population because of education level.

However, it all depends on the subject matter! A smart lawyer can be an idiot in other areas... even in their own life decisions.

What makes one appear smart to those that are not in a profession is ignorance of the important details!

I know plenty of half competent technical and engineering people, I have no doubt that the same patter prevails in other professions.

This comment is not targeted at you... in every job, profession, whatever... the truly capable people can spot a mediocre peer quickly. If one believes most in their peer group is "really good"... chances are they are dead square in the middle of of being mediocre themselves... unfortunately they are in denial or worse... don't know the difference.

IMO - it often does not come down to brilliance, but one's drive and enthusiasm for their job or profession. Most mediocre people are that way because they spend more time trying to avoid something rather than embrace the challenge! Often the root cause is laziness or a profession mismatch.

I cannot agree with this more!

Regarding the statement that "the truly capable people can spot a mediocre peer quickly", my experience is that even lousy engineers can spot a good engineer. Heck, that's how some lousy engineers can become good bosses! Of course I don't know about other professions.

 

[Khan]

Ben Stein is a YEC.

 

[kcowan]

Hang on. He has an economics degree from Columbia and was valedictorian at Yale Law School. He's got plenty of credentials to tackle economic and personal-finance issues.

He's made some goofy commercials, but I think he's just a good capitalist. Go Ben!

Have you any track record recently that would justify that comment? I don't care what he got his degree in. What has he done that would justify a claim that he is a good capitalist? This is the problem!

 

[NW-Bound]

Boy! There are a lot of weird things about these celebrities. But again, it's a good thing I do not follow to know much about them. I guess I just do not care. Any celebrity can only cast one vote, same as you and I.

 

[Onward]

What has he done that would justify a claim that he is a good capitalist?

I was talking about the money that he made from his commercials.

 

[kcowan]

I was talking about the money that he made from his commercials.

Sometimes referred to as becoming a shill for money...he can be rented.