The Ben Stein Pass/Fail Test

[stoutboy]

I really don't have much use for anyone part of the Nixon syndicate.

 

[Texas Proud]

There's a myth in US culture that life depends entirely on personal choices. Were it only that simple.

True, but personal choices have a lot to do with how most people turn out... almost everybody I know are the the range of where you think they would be with the choices they made...

So the guy who always thought he should be given a job... who hated bosses telling him what to do etc. etc.... has three kids he can not take care of and has been living at his parents house nor working for the past 20 to 25 years.... his 'choices'....

When I was young, I was not interested in getting a good job etc... but then changed my mind, went back to school, graduated with honors... got jobs etc... and now have a good life... sure, there were times when things were not going like I wanted, but I would then make changes to (as my wife would say) 'reach my final destination'....

 

[SunsetSail]

TikiToast had a slightly different impression of him a few years ago:
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/keeping-it-simple-ben-stein-27292.html#post510728

I don't see any reason why being a jerk personally is mutually exclusive with providing wisdom, sound advice or interestingly framed scenarios as with the OP's post. History is full of examples of brilliant people that were deviants in many ways. The two may even be related but not necessarily always from a negative point of view.

 

[haha]

The other thing is this- TikiToast is one woman. A well spoken, articulate and apparently completely sane woman, but still...

 

[Texas Proud]

I don't see any reason why being a jerk personally is mutually exclusive with providing wisdom, sound advice or interestingly framed scenarios as with the OP's post. History is full of examples of brilliant people that were deviants in many ways. The two may even be related but not necessarily always from a negative point of view.

True... I think the OP should be kind of an eye opener for a lot of people... it is a pretty direct way to get you thinking... which way do I want to go... and it should be this way to get someone thinking...

In reality, there are a lot more doors between 1 and 2... and most of us end up in one of them...

 

[keegs]

True, but personal choices have a lot to do with how most people turn out... almost everybody I know are the the range of where you think they would be with the choices they made...

So the guy who always thought he should be given a job... who hated bosses telling him what to do etc. etc.... has three kids he can not take care of and has been living at his parents house nor working for the past 20 to 25 years.... his 'choices'....

When I was young, I was not interested in getting a good job etc... but then changed my mind, went back to school, graduated with honors... got jobs etc... and now have a good life... sure, there were times when things were not going like I wanted, but I would then make changes to (as my wife would say) 'reach my final destination'....

Well...Mom and Dad told me if I screwed up they'd pound the crap out of me. I guess it was a choice...

 

[Midpack]

The only problem with this is that Bill Maher is one of the world's biggest idiots, and he is nasty to boot.

They (Maher & Stein) are both amusing, nothing more...

 

[jayc]

Columbia undergrad, Yale Law School grad, lawyer, law school professor (recent professorial posting on this board notwithstanding), former presidential speechwriter and an entertaining speaker.

Maybe entertaining speaker, but what does the rest have to do with not being an idiot.

 

[FUEGO]

Maybe entertaining speaker, but what does the rest have to do with not being an idiot.

Well, as someone who was denied admittance to Yale Law School, I'd like to think that it takes at least a modicum of intelligence to get in to the place. Otherwise it makes me a real big idiot!

And as for law professors, I always thought mine were very intelligent. At least they did not fall into the "idiot" category. I disagreed with virtually all of them on their politics, but that doesn't make them idiots.

 

[Nords]

Well, as someone who was denied admittance to Yale Law School, I'd like to think that it takes at least a modicum of intelligence to get in to the place. Otherwise it makes me a real big idiot!

Are you wearing a "KICK ME!!" sign today, or are you just hoping that we'll help you add to your collection of lawyer jokes?

Yale Law School, intelligence, lawyers, idiots... way too easy.

 

[FUEGO]

Are you wearing a "KICK ME!!" sign today, or are you just hoping that we'll help you add to your collection of lawyer jokes?

Yale Law School, intelligence, lawyers, idiots... way too easy.

I'm always in the mood for lawyer jokes. I've been thinking about dropping the law license anyway, so maybe this will push me over the edge.

 

[haha]

I'm always in the mood for lawyer jokes. I've been thinking about dropping the law license anyway, so maybe this will push me over the edge.

I have never noticed any lawyers who were idiots. It may take a while to cotton the usual lawyer personality, but they are not stupid, they are not naive, and they are not slackers.

Think twice before giving up your badge, Fuego. I have known a few guys who did an ESR, by doing some services for other lawyers and other low prestige but reasonably well paid work. A lot better than McDonald's anyway.

Ha

 

[FUEGO]

Think twice before giving up your badge, Fuego. I have known a few guys who did an ESR, by doing some services for other lawyers and other low prestige but reasonably well paid work. A lot better than McDonald's anyway.

I don't really use the law license professionally. It is expensive and a hassle to maintain. 2 days of continuing education a year at a minimum. The resume will still say member of bar of state XX (inactive) since I'm technically petitioning the bar to become an inactive member. It is not a permanent decision. Agreed on the "no dumb lawyer" comment. Plenty of law school grads (probably not from Yale) may not be the brightest, but the bar exam usually weeds them out. And two of my friends/high school classmates who graduated from Yale law school are pretty high up there on the list of the brightest people I know.

 

[Nords]

I don't really use the law license professionally. It is expensive and a hassle to maintain. 2 days of continuing education a year at a minimum.

It seems difficult to throw away a bird in the hand, especially if you could semi-ER to find a legal firm willing to hire you for a few extra hours a month of gruntwork in exchange for paying your fees.

BTW the bar exam doesn't weed out all the dumb lawyers. I had the misfortune of working with two military officers who retired to get their law degrees. (One of them used to convene his law-school study group in his office at the command during working hours... but it kept him out of our hair so that was actually a good thing.) Book smart does not equate to common sense, and I think a substantial minority of lawyers would benefit from a little dose of good engineering practice.

 

[Martha]

It seems difficult to throw away a bird in the hand, especially if you could semi-ER to find a legal firm willing to hire you for a few extra hours a month of gruntwork in exchange for paying your fees.

Not so easy. Partly it is because of malpractice issues. The firm would have to carry him on their policy. Their deductible may be pretty high (think $50,000 or thereabouts) and so he is automatically an additional risk. He would not be able to do legal work outside the purview of the firm. Continuing education and licensing is pricey and is a nuisance for a firm to monitor. He would have to be educated and monitored on all sorts of firm policies, such as trust accounts. Unless he is bringing in a significant amount of money he isn't worth the risk and the bother. It is far easier of him to go on inactive status.

I have kept my Minnesota license but I went inactive in other states where I was licensed because of these factors. In most states you can reactivate by taking a bunch of legal education courses and paying a bunch of money.

 

[Martha]

There are idiots everywhere. I know first hand idiot lawyers and idiot doctors. I am sure that there are idiot engineers. I know professionals that have severe mental health issues which impaired their work.

One error people make is to assume they have something significant to say in an area where they are not experts just because they are smart and are very knowledgeable in another area. I think Ben Stein makes that error. Sometimes people glaringly make that error. Like the Harvard medical school professor who believes that alien abduction is a real possibility.

 

[Midpack]

One error people make is to assume they have something significant to say in an area where they are not experts just because they are smart and are very knowledgeable in another area.

Even more incredible are those who listen to so many clueless rock stars and celebrities about politics and other topics, assuming they have something worthwhile to say. There are exceptions, but they're a minority...

 

[haha]

One error people make is to assume they have something significant to say in an area where they are not experts just because they are smart and are very knowledgeable in another area.

Oh-oh Martha, you have just removed the justification of this board.

Ha

 

[Martha]

Oh-oh Martha, you have just removed the justification of this board.

Ha

Of course, we all do this. I do it several times a day. Didn't I just post on batteries? But I am not a movie star. It is unlikely people will believe me just because of who I am.

 

[haha]

But I am not a movie star. It is unlikely people will believe me just because of who I am.

Martha, I believe you because of who you are.

 

[RonBoyd]

Martha, I believe you because of who you are.

You can say that again.

 

[obgyn65]

Hello MB - before reading all the posts below I am choosing door #1. Who would choose door #2 ?

What type of test is that ? If there is a trick I missed it...

Which outcome would you like?

 

[RunningBum]

Back to the original post, the problem I have with this is the pass/fail aspect. I hear about too many people who aren't going to "pass" this test, and they just give up. It's not all black and white, there are nearly infinite shades of gray. Living minimally is better than having your utilities shut off. And living in cramped modest quarters is better than living under a bridge.

 

[ScottFromUtah]

Back on the topic of the two doors. In reality, there are many door in between Stein's Door #1 and Door #2. I've been retired for 2.3 years and feel that I live a Door #1 lifestyle. I enjoy taking a major trip every year (we went to Europe this year; we're going to Antarctica in January), owning (outright) two homes, and having other Door #1 luxuries of life. But these things are luxuries; I don't really need them. I could live happily retired without them. In fact, most people shouldn't even shoot for Door #1 and certainly shouldn't settle for Door #2, but they should shoot for, say, Door #1.5 or #1.6, on the continuum between Stein's two doors.

 

[FUEGO]

Not so easy. Partly it is because of malpractice issues. The firm would have to carry him on their policy. Their deductible may be pretty high (think $50,000 or thereabouts) and so he is automatically an additional risk. He would not be able to do legal work outside the purview of the firm. Continuing education and licensing is pricey and is a nuisance for a firm to monitor. He would have to be educated and monitored on all sorts of firm policies, such as trust accounts. Unless he is bringing in a significant amount of money he isn't worth the risk and the bother. It is far easier of him to go on inactive status.

I have kept my Minnesota license but I went inactive in other states where I was licensed because of these factors. In most states you can reactivate by taking a bunch of legal education courses and paying a bunch of money.

I can see you have experience with these issues!

I don't want to pursue a very part time relationship with a legal employer at all, and for the other reasons you have pointed out, it isn't really feasible. I would end up with a small four figure fee every year most likely just to maintain the license and pay for continuing ed. And that is without malpractice insurance.