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Old 12-24-2015, 10:10 AM   #101
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Irradiation of food may be the most practical way to treat produce. However, I wonder if it would permit growers to feed us more filthy food and let us eat dirt as it will not kill us.

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From this link, there's an explanation of how people have not dropped like flies.
Health officials in Canada mention that it is the immune compromised who are most at risk from E. coli. (Most who encounter E. coli don't experience the most serious side effects.)
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Old 12-24-2015, 10:25 AM   #102
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So what we are essentially saying here is you can kill yourself by eating healthy.

Deep fried everything ftw.
Yes, but you're far more likely to kill yourself just driving your car...

And partially cooked ground beef is still the #1 food vehicle for E. coli, almost double the incidence of produce.
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Old 12-24-2015, 11:08 AM   #103
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Yes, I saw the above passage about possible kidney failure. Dialysis for life is a steep price to pay for a burrito. Of course, it may happen with a home meal too. Yikes!
I'm still looking for some validation that eating fresh food at non-Chipotles restaurants is statistically safer than Chipotles. Or, as you say, eating at home.

Obviously, some menu's are going to be less problematic. For example, McD's serves their infamous burgers well done and I suspect would be safe (if the greasy-faced high school kid frying them pays attention and gets it done right and you pick something that doesn't include lettuce or tomato as a garnish). Or a fresh out of the oven pizza consumed immediately while steaming hot should be OK.

But I'm having trouble finding any data to show that independent restaurants serving fresh food are doing better than Chipotles. I hope so, but since Chipotles restaurants have only caused a tiny fraction of the total ytd cases, who knows?
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:23 PM   #104
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Should the fact that irradiation would allow the sale of food that starts out more "filthy", that would in the end be substantially safer to eat than food is today, be made prominent in the debate over irradiation? Of course people can say whatever they wish, especially if it is true, but that doesn't negate the fact that doing so may be bad judgment.

Similarly, should the implication be raised that only the most vulnerable in society are in real danger from these food safety issues? Yes, it is also a true statement which people are entitled to inject into the debates about food safety, but again that doesn't negate the fact that doing so may be bad judgment.

One would hope that everyone is considering all the sides of the issue, and that what they're advocating is not simply putting forward criticisms to take a side but rather are representing the course of action that they themselves (perhaps grudgingly) admit is the right course of action. However, I think that we've now crafted our society such that people - especially people who trade in power - are just looking for ways to move the pieces around on the game board to protect and enhance their power. As a result, we see a lot of deflective advocacy that the people doing the advocacy don't even fully agree with.
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:30 PM   #105
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... One would hope that everyone is considering all the sides of the issue, and that what they're advocating is not simply putting forward criticisms to take a side but rather are representing the course of action that they themselves (perhaps grudgingly) admit is the right course of action...
What you say is true with any issue that society has to deal with. There is never, or should I say rarely, a solution that does not involve some compromises. But the way compromises are settled and agreed upon is by having an open debate, not by sweeping any negative aspect under the rug.
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Old 12-24-2015, 02:37 PM   #106
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I'm still looking for some validation that eating fresh food at non-Chipotles restaurants is statistically safer than Chipotles. Or, as you say, eating at home.

Obviously, some menu's are going to be less problematic. For example, McD's serves their infamous burgers well done and I suspect would be safe (if the greasy-faced high school kid frying them pays attention and gets it done right and you pick something that doesn't include lettuce or tomato as a garnish). Or a fresh out of the oven pizza consumed immediately while steaming hot should be OK.

But I'm having trouble finding any data to show that independent restaurants serving fresh food are doing better than Chipotles. I hope so, but since Chipotles restaurants have only caused a tiny fraction of the total ytd cases, who knows?
As I have already described above, I'm a Chipotle fan. However, as it was recently, Chipotle is/was at more risk than McD's. They even clearly stated it in the 2014 report: Chipotle Investor Relations - Annual Reports

Quote:
We may be at a
higher risk for food-borne illness outbreaks than some
competitors due to our use of fresh produce and meats
rather than frozen, and our reliance on employees cooking
with traditional methods rather than automation
McD's and others centrally process under high control, with testing. Chipotle is going to this model. Chances are your local restaraunt even gets stuff from Sysco, where they centrally process a lot of stuff.

Still that doesn't mean there is zero risk.

I personally like the taste of Chipotle and could care less about their organic fixation. We'll see if their new methods change the taste.

I think the final irony in all this is that "the kids" love this food because it is "responsible" or whatever... But "the kids" are the first to bring down hellfire and brimstone on the company through social media. The kids are gone in droves. I guess they are soaking in the chemicals like mom and dad have for a few generations. Welcome to sanity, kiddies!
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Old 12-24-2015, 04:31 PM   #107
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If they were so involved with sourcing their foods, the should know what s**t holes the food is coming from. Someone there looked the other way.
Can you clarify your "they" and "there"? I'm not sure to which s**tholes you are referring.
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Old 12-24-2015, 05:03 PM   #108
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If really concerned find the rules that are published about eating out in third world countries and follow them (essentially eat only hot food). For roughage there is also cooked cabbage.
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Old 12-24-2015, 07:17 PM   #109
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About 5 years ago when I was shopping for a condo(this was when I realized that my hope of moving back in with wifey was shot) I considered locations that had good service on the Link train, but were too far from downtown to walk or to grab a short busride. Then i realized that this would inevitably mean I would be eating out more. I didn't like this idea, so a max of 1 mile from Pike Place Market became my rule. It simplified home shopping, taught me to expect smaller places, and allowed me to get much better food. I get an upset gut very rarely anymore, and it has always been when I messed up at home and failed to mark when I opened something, when I cooked leftovers, etc.

I truly hate upset guts.

Ha
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Old 12-24-2015, 09:51 PM   #110
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I got sick, vomited for the first time in decades. Was also concerned with the dark color of what came out of the other end. Concerned about it being blood.

Searched around and learned that food poisoning could result in that color.

Had had a couple of slices of pizza from a place that I'd eaten from for years. The thing is, I had a lot of leftovers of that pizza.

So over the next few days, I zapped it good in the microwave, even letting the cheese melt, which I usually don't do.

The dark color stayed for about a week but no other symptoms.

Usually I would have shrugged off food poisoning but reading about this Chipotle deal, it was real eye-opening to learn it could be fatal.

I do regularly go to Chipotles though I haven't in awhile. I will go though.
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Old 12-24-2015, 10:57 PM   #111
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I truly hate upset guts.
I think we all agree with you on that one.
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Old 12-26-2015, 10:10 AM   #112
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Feeding 7 billion people, excluding the billion or so who are malnourished or starving, is a tough task. Lots of gotchas...
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Old 12-26-2015, 02:30 PM   #113
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Somebody here mentioned in passing, almost as a joke. But the answer is irradiation. A big push was in place 20 years ago or so, but it got nowhere due to public outcry. [/url]
It's really too bad this effort didn't make it. Many lives certainly would have been saved and many many fewer people would have gotten sick over the years.

People seem to have an irrational fear of "RADIATION!".

I was involved in the early development of what is now called MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) and it's now widely used and very safe. (I just made software for some of the folks who figured it all out)

Back in the early '80s it was called NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance). As it developed the industry figured out they were DOA if the technology continued to use the dread NUCLEAR word in the name, so they came with with MRI.

The food irradiation people should have done the same. Called it, say, PurRay™ or GreenShield™ or NoTrots™ or something equally clever.

Sad really.
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Old 12-26-2015, 03:04 PM   #114
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another reason to stay at home and cook my own food.
The others being:
I like my cooking.
I like my homemade wine better.
My wine doesn't cost me $8/glass
I don't have to drive home after drinking too much of the $8/glass wine.
And: You can't sue yourself if you get sick from your own cooking....
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Old 12-26-2015, 07:16 PM   #115
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NoTrots™ or something equally clever.
OMG if I ever develop a drug or something for intestinal problems I am totally stealing that name.
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Old 12-26-2015, 07:43 PM   #116
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Somebody here mentioned in passing, almost as a joke. But the answer is irradiation. A big push was in place 20 years ago or so, but it got nowhere due to public outcry. Meanwhile, that same public is happy to get CAT scans for every bump and bruise. Go figure...

I suspect when every bacteria colony becomes a supergerm we have no defense against, irradiation will be palitable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_irradiation
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It's really too bad this effort didn't make it. Many lives certainly would have been saved and many many fewer people would have gotten sick over the years.

People seem to have an irrational fear of "RADIATION!".

I was involved in the early development of what is now called MRI (magnetic resonance imaging) and it's now widely used and very safe. (I just made software for some of the folks who figured it all out)

Back in the early '80s it was called NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance). As it developed the industry figured out they were DOA if the technology continued to use the dread NUCLEAR word in the name, so they came with with MRI.

The food irradiation people should have done the same. Called it, say, PurRay™ or GreenShield™ or NoTrots™ or something equally clever.

Sad really.
IMO, it is far worse than 'too bad' and 'sad'. Uninformed people work up this fear-mongering against some new technology, and a public outcry ends up shutting it down, or at least slowing it down.

Even the 'nuclear' in Nuclear Magnetic Resonance refers to the nucleus of the atoms, not nuclear energy in any way (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong on that).

So we have had people fear-mongering over Nuclear power (resulting in more coal plants in the US), and we have the anti-GMO crowd making it difficult to make progress in that area, etc, etc.

I wish we could give these people jail time for the consequences of deaths and economic harm from their anti-everything actions.

-ERD50
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Old 12-26-2015, 07:49 PM   #117
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IMO, it is far worse than 'too bad' and 'sad'. Uninformed people work up this fear-mongering against some new technology, and a public outcry ends up shutting it down, or at least slowing it down.

Even the 'nuclear' in Nuclear Magnetic Resonance refers to the nucleus of the atoms, not nuclear energy in any way (I think, please correct me if I'm wrong on that).

So we have had people fear-mongering over Nuclear power (resulting in more coal plants in the US), and we have the anti-GMO crowd making it difficult to make progress in that area, etc, etc.

I wish we could give these people jail time for the consequences of deaths and economic harm from their anti-everything actions.

-ERD50
+1.

What I also find fascinating is this fear cuts across political party lines depending on the specific innovation. I just wish people would think for themselves.
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Old 12-26-2015, 08:34 PM   #118
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As I have already described above, I'm a Chipotle fan. However, as it was recently, Chipotle is/was at more risk than McD's. They even clearly stated it in the 2014 report: Chipotle Investor Relations - Annual Reports

McD's and others centrally process under high control, with testing. Chipotle is going to this model. Chances are your local restaraunt even gets stuff from Sysco, where they centrally process a lot of stuff.

Still that doesn't mean there is zero risk.

I personally like the taste of Chipotle and could care less about their organic fixation. We'll see if their new methods change the taste.

I think the final irony in all this is that "the kids" love this food because it is "responsible" or whatever... But "the kids" are the first to bring down hellfire and brimstone on the company through social media. The kids are gone in droves. I guess they are soaking in the chemicals like mom and dad have for a few generations. Welcome to sanity, kiddies!
You misread my post. I'm not curious as to whether a McD well done burger sans any fresh garnish is safer than locally sourced chipotle raw produce. Rather, I'm concerned whether fresh, locally sourced produce at any independent or local chain restaurant is safer than Chipotle. If I stop by Bertha's diner for a plate lunch at the counter and that plate lunch includes a side salad sourced locally, should I trust it? Is there any reason to feel it's statistically safer to eat Bertha's lettuce and tomato than Chipotle's?

For independent restaurants, small chains and similar, how will we ever be assured that they don't source anything from local farmers, so-called organic farmers or farmer's markets?

I'm not for or against Chipotle. I've never eaten at a Chipotle restaurant. But I do fear that the media is overlooking the fact that independent restaurants have had similar problems during this same time period and I'm not hearing much about what they are doing to ensure there will be zero, not just low percentages, of issues going forward.

This spoken by someone who has had Salmonella twice. Once from a restaurant in Hamburg and once from a pub in Geneva, Illinois.
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Old 12-26-2015, 08:43 PM   #119
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Are you sure it was public fears that killed irradiation of foods?

Maybe the distributors didn't want to pay for the expense? Seems like the process would increase the time it takes to get the food to market and that probably hits the bottom line of the sellers.
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Old 12-26-2015, 10:09 PM   #120
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Irradiation of food may be the most practical way to treat produce. However, I wonder if it would permit growers to feed us more filthy food and let us eat dirt as it will not kill us...
Well, I did not know what I was talking about. Irradiation treatment destroys some produce, particularly lettuce and tomatoes.

From a Web site:
... irradiation can only be used on a limited number of foods. Fresh produce such as lettuce, grapes, tomatoes, and cucumbers turn mushy and unpalatable. Thus, the risk from contaminated fresh produce, a major carrier of food-borne disease, cannot be fully addressed by irradiation.

Foods that the FDA has approved for irradiation include wheat, flour, red meat, poultry, pork, fresh shell eggs, vegetables, and spices as well as refrigerated and frozen uncooked meat, meat by-products, and certain other meat food products.
See: Irradiation (US and Canada) | Whole Foods Market.
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