For the small minority, no kids, no spouse, what's your plan?

[W2R]

It's ironic that even when we are old ourselves, we still don't like old people.

Oddly, I have always loved being around old people, ever since I was a little girl. They seem so wise and have such interesting stories to tell.

My mother-in-law is considering such a place but it has a 10 year waiting list. She recently came up at the top and was offered a spot but she just wasn't ready to move yet. The unit was also way too large for her needs and she couldn't bring her dog.

I figure there are lots of people ahead of me that will need some sort of assisted care and either don't have or don't want to rely on relatives. I will watch what they do and perhaps some enterprising non FIREd person will make a business catering to our needs.

Dang. We had better go get on a waiting list. You are probably right about the business, but sometimes it seems to me like everybody wants to make a fortune off the baby boomers if they can.

What I'd rather avoid is the possible situation, when living alone, that nobody is checking on me at all. I could see myself becoming unable to get out of bed, and just lying there starving to death and dying of thirst, all by myself. I can think of other ways I'd rather go than that.

Another possible situation to avoid is becoming completely loonie due to Alzheimers, and wandering around town, getting lost, getting mugged, and dying in a gutter from a blow to the head from someone who only wanted my wallet.

 

[scrabbler1]

Back in 2008 when I was 45, a few months before I ERed, I had an estate lawyer create a will, POA, and HCP for me. Single and childfree, I named my ladyfriend of 4 years (now 11 years) and my younger brother (married, with a kid, and wealthier than me) to look out for me in case I can't make decisions for myself.

 

[irishgal]

Oddly, I have always loved being around old people, ever since I was a little girl. They seem so wise and have such interesting stories to tell.





What I'd rather avoid is the possible situation, when living alone, that nobody is checking on me at all. I could see myself becoming unable to get out of bed, and just lying there starving to death and dying of thirst, all by myself. I can think of other ways I'd rather go than that.

Another possible situation to avoid is becoming completely loonie due to Alzheimers, and wandering around town, getting lost, getting mugged, and dying in a gutter from a blow to the head from someone who only wanted my wallet.

I'm glad to see another person who has these horrible scenarios floating around in their brain!



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[truenorth418]

I agree with those who have observed that marriage and children do not necessarily solve this problem. My father was married twice and outlived both of his wives. With the second wife, my step mother, who was 8 years older than him, they structured their home, lifestyle and estate plan around the assumption that he would die first and she would live on for years. But that's not what happened.

As for children, he had four sons, but we all lived hours away from him. We all tried to visit as much as we could, especially in the months prior to his death, but ultimately we relied on personal support workers who visited a few hours a day, made his dinner, and ran his errands. He actually came to like this because it gave him just enough company and structure he needed while being able to live in his own home.

The experience taught me the importance of getting in front of this issue early, especially as I am on my own, but as I am now 51 hopefully I won't have to make the decisions for a while.


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[W2R]

I'm glad to see another person who has these horrible scenarios floating around in their brain!

Yeah!!! Frank says that the reason why we are always looking towards the future, planning pretty far out, and looking for flaws in our plans, is that this was drummed into us in engineering school. I don't know if he's right or not, but as soon as my retirement plans fell into place and no longer needed my attention, I started thinking about old age.

At least I have my elderly friendly house, now. I think I'll be set for now, so that gives me time to think through and prepare for these unlikely but potentially horrible scenarios.

 

[razztazz]

One was for Fiduciary services - and not just for financial advisor roles. A professional fiduciary can act like a 'general contractor' in construction, coordinating and in charge of ALL aspects relating to an individual in retirement

What are these people called? How do I look for one in the phone book? (I realize titles may vary by State...?)

If they can't find a family member or friend, the state takes over as guardian... and charges their services to the assets of the person.

On another thread (maybe another board) recently there was something about having close by and readily retrievable by the cops, ambulance team, or landlord, a list of people to notify and some directions to tie up loose ends.

This would work in the event of unexpected incapacitation, coma, or dementia that has simply gotten out in front of you.

Neighbor calls police. "The old guy who lives down the block is wandering around in the snow."

Cops pick you up, take you to "General Hospital" for evaluation. You are declared "Unsafe at any speed."

I am sure at that point they will go through your stuff to find some ID and points-of-contact.

They will also find that list you were thoughtful enough to print out 10 years ago.

The they will appoint a social worker/attorney type to make notifications and , if you are like me and the Original Poster, start closing your accounts, selling the car and house if applicable. throwing out what's in the house/apartment. Then, since no one else gets any remaining funds, they will be dispersed to whatever nursing home they send you to OR just go to the general fund and they will pay for you stay via taxes. However it's structured in that State, county, Town.

As long as they have something to go on it should settle itself out. As far as getting into a GOOD home vs a "tax payer funded" one.....? If you stipulate that in your instructions and their investigation shows you have the money for at least a couple of years stay in a good facility, there is at least a fair to good chance they will accommodate you since you won't be glomming up the county run nursing home. Lawyers will handle any transfer of funds access to accounts etc. It's not like you'll be needing the money when you get out.

And this is only --IF-- you completely zero-out. How many people actually die like that? Most people probably go either with some time to get this crap together on their own terms, OR drop dead suddenly in an uncomplicated manner. Loose ends will still need to be tied up but your "Little List" should cover all that and help the Social workers clear it up. Your ongoing needs and care are no longer a factor.




.

 

[BBQ-Nut]

What are these people called? How do I look for one in the phone book? (I realize titles may vary by State...?)

Search for Professional Fiduciary.

In CA, there is the Professional Fiduciary Association of California
www.pfac-pro.org

 

[FreeBear]

I
One was for Fiduciary services - and not just for financial advisor roles. A professional fiduciary can act like a 'general contractor' in construction, coordinating and in charge of ALL aspects relating to an individual in retirement who has set up a Trust and the 'trigger' has been pulled on POA due to the conditions set out in the Trust. These roles can cover Advanced Health Care Directives, financial management but also day to day decisions for quality of life.

The Fiduciary can work with LTCI providers if needed as well, if a policy is in force, and also a Geriatric Care Manager for daily activities.

There could be instances where family may not be local, or may not want to act in the role of decision maker.

Interesting option BBQ-nut. Any idea how much would this cost? Is it a fixed one time or periodic fee or something like "percent of assets under management"?

Has anyone tried this approach or know of someone who has?

FB

 

[BBQ-Nut]

Interesting option BBQ-nut. Any idea how much would this cost? Is it a fixed one time or periodic fee or something like "percent of assets under management"?

Has anyone tried this approach or know of someone who has?

FB

Well, the Prof Fiduciary who gave the presentation did give several examples of clients she functions as their fiduciary, and she had, of course, her card available for those interested after the presentation.

But, I do not have any experience.

She did say that fees vary: some will do a fixed fee, but most in CA will charge a % of assets under management.

But the roles of a fiduciary can encompass: trustee, executor, conservator, and administrator (for asset management, record keeping, distributions, taxes, etc).

It is something we are considering as a contingent trustee in the event our first choice of family member decides to resign as our named trustee.

 

[Amethyst]

If on-line discussions are anything to go by, this "seeming" disappears when old people live together in groups. Apparently they don't bother being as nice to each other as they are to little girls. Also, everybody has already heard all the stories, and/or lived them.

Oh well, age will come to us all eventually, and the sensible thing seems to be to surround ourselves with others like ourselves;, who get what we are going through; so we'd better get used to old people while we can.

Oddly, I have always loved being around old people, ever since I was a little girl. They seem so wise and have such interesting stories to tell.

.

 

[Walt34]

After the experience of dealing with FIL who stayed in his house far too long because he wanted to be "independent" (he wasn't, really, DW was taking care of it and him) and my mother who moved to a CCRC and it worked out wonderfully for her we decided to do likewise.

So we're on a waiting list for one in PA, and we have all the paperwork done, we are POA and such for each other and DW's nephew is the backup. While I do have a niece that I would trust, she has some serious health issues and may well pass before I do.

The CCRC that we signed up for is mostly single-family homes, all built with elderly in mind - no stairs, wide doorways, ect. They do have independent living apartments and assisted living and dementia wards too, but make an effort to keep people in the independent home/apartment for as long as possible. We've toured the place, FIL was in a nursing home run by the same group and we were impressed with them. While there is a $200k+ entrance fee depending on house or apartment, they also promise that if funds are exhausted they won't throw you out. That's crucial for us because most of our income is my pension. If I stroke out and go to a nursing home that would leave DW with virtually nothing when funds were exhausted. This way even if that happens she'll have a decent place to live and other decent people around her.

 

[Clone]

I will stay in my own house, and hire people to care for me. When I am no longer to think rationally, I will have (children, friends, paid advisor) who will make the correct decisions, and I will accept those decisions.

The challenge with this line of thinking is that you believe that you can control the situation and the outcomes. It is nice to have a plan, but life doesn't always follow your plan. Nobody wants to die in 'one of those places', but it really isn't your choice, in most cases. We don't want to have our hard earned money evaporate to a place that charges $10 for an aide to walk you to the dining room. We don't want our home health care folks taking the pain medications out of the bottle and replacing them with tylenol.

The best we can do is recognize that we may have limitations in the future. Make the plan that makes sense, share it with your (children, friends, document it for a potential advisor). Put yourself in a position where the plan has a chance of success. Move to a location and home that you can age in. Someplace where it is easy for others to check in on you. A place where community services like meals on wheels or shuttle services can get to you.

There is an organization that DWs parents went through. They have plans that handle most any situation. At one level, they have duplexes (maybe even single family) places. Next, independent living apartments. Then smaller apartments with a meal plan and housekeeping. Then apartments with nursing care as needed, then complete care. Once you are in the system, there is a structure in place for the transition to the next level. They also have financial guardianship available.

I would trust them with our future. The key is- will we make the decision to move into that system while we still are in control of our faculties? Or will we become stubborn and stay to long where we are now such that it becomes a debacle?

 

[youbet]

I simply refuse to be a burden on my daughter at all. .

While there is no way I would want to impose on my son's life to the extent of actually living with him and his family or needing him to do something for me everyday, I would expect him to spend an hour a month, or so, checking my finances to ensure I'm not being ripped off and visit once a week if I'm in a home.

We're doing this for my MIL right now and it's not overwhelming for us at all. We'd be disappointed if she didn't allow us to help in this way.

I wonder what you mean by "be a burden?"

 

[Amethyst]

Probably. Moving to the tiny place is a flat-out admission that the end is nigh, your striving was all in vain, all fun is now at an end and there's no going back. As a rational person with a normal ego, you will put off that admission until the decision is made for you.

Then smaller apartments with a meal plan and housekeeping. Then apartments with nursing care as needed, then complete care. Once you are in the system, there is a structure in place for the transition to the next level. They also have financial guardianship available.

Or will we become stubborn and stay to long where we are now such that it becomes a debacle?

 

[Mulligan]

Probably. Moving to the tiny place is a flat-out admission that the end is nigh, your striving was all in vain, all fun is now at an end and there's no going back. As a rational person with a normal ego, you will put off that admission until the decision is made for you.

Being just 51, I may be a bit clouded about elderly frailty. But I did experience it with my elderly neighbors (both 86). For several years they had been planning a move to an independent care apartment facilitated with a nursing home. Last November they told me it was time. "You need to go on your own terms, before someone makes you go. Its time..."
I told her... You aren't going to like it and its going to be a big mistake. Fight it until you cant fight anymore is what I told them. Well fast forward 2 months as the house hadnt sold yet, and guess who is moving back in their old house? Yep, they returned to fight... Couldn't stand being around all the crazy people and didn't know who was sane or crazy is what they said. They have made it almost a year now since they moved back and are still making it.
I see myself in them....


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[Walt34]

I wonder what you mean by "be a burden?"

FIL was a burden to DW by refusing to face the reality soon enough that he couldn't stay in the house as long as he did without substantial help from me and mostly her. At one point she was driving 35-40 minutes one way three or four days a week looking after him. When he couldn't drive she was the one taking him to doctors, grocery, etc. While she was grateful to have the free time to do this because that's who she is, frankly I was a bit resentful that he didn't take more responsibility for himself and make arrangements to move before he absolutely had no choice.

That said, he was terrified of nursing homes because his father was in one in the 1970's. Almost all are much better now and more heavily regulated because of past abuses. And FIL did have the resources to get into one better than the minimum standard. I have a far different view because of my mother's experience in a well run CCRC.

A cousin of DW's in FL has it even worse. Her parents are living nearby and her father has dementia, incontinence, etc. and all he other bad things everyone is justifiably afraid of. She is dealing with finding homes for them with meager resources - they should have made those arrangements a long time ago. What do these people think is going to happen? That they're never going to get old and feeble? That they'll get lucky and just pass away while asleep one night? That happens to a lucky few but more often it is far different.

 

[W2R]

If on-line discussions are anything to go by, this "seeming" disappears when old people live together in groups. Apparently they don't bother being as nice to each other as they are to little girls. Also, everybody has already heard all the stories, and/or lived them.

Oh well, age will come to us all eventually, and the sensible thing seems to be to surround ourselves with others like ourselves;, who get what we are going through; so we'd better get used to old people while we can.

They still tell me fascinating stories (I'm talking about people 20 years older than me, 87 to my 67). But I have NO idea what they talk about amongst themselves.

F's uncle told me utterly mind blowing stories about the underbelly of New Orleans in the 1930's, give or take a decade. Unfortunately he died in 2004. Every time we were to see him, I was dying to hear the next installment of his stories. If he was still alive to fill in the details, they could make a blockbuster series of epic films about it.

Maybe older people tell me these stories because they can sense I am interested? But then, if I had heard the story before I might not be so enthralled.

On the other hand, Frank and I tell each other the same stories over and over. We try not to, but we still do.

 

[Amethyst]

Put yourself in their shoes -which, God willing, we will all be in, one day.

You only have a short bit of life left, and you are supposed to spend it in THAT place with THOSE people Not while you can still get out of bed under your own power!

But I'm wondering...why did they have to be around the (forgive me, cruel term) "crazy people" while they were in their independent apartment? I thought the advantage of the"gradually descending" types of CCRCs was that, while you know the dementia ward is around the corner, you don't actually have to live in it yet.

Amethyst

Being just 51, I may be a bit clouded about elderly frailty. But I did experience it with my elderly neighbors (both 86). For several years they had been planning a move to an independent care apartment facilitated with a nursing home. Last November they told me it was time. "You need to go on your own terms, before someone makes you go. Its time..."
I told her... You aren't going to like it and its going to be a big mistake. Fight it until you cant fight anymore is what I told them. Well fast forward 2 months as the house hadnt sold yet, and guess who is moving back in their old house? Yep, they returned to fight... Couldn't stand being around all the crazy people and didn't know who was sane or crazy is what they said. They have made it almost a year now since they moved back and are still making it.
I see myself in them....


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[W2R]

While there is no way I would want to impose on my son's life to the extent of actually living with him and his family or needing him to do something for me everyday, I would expect him to spend an hour a month, or so, checking my finances to ensure I'm not being ripped off and visit once a week if I'm in a home.

We're doing this for my MIL right now and it's not overwhelming for us at all. We'd be disappointed if she didn't allow us to help in this way.

I wonder what you mean by "be a burden?"

An hour a month online by my daughter from her home in Oregon would not be excessive to ask of her, I would think? On the other hand, there's a huge difference between that request, and moving in with her and her husband, or expecting them to spend hours a week with me. She is certainly NOT going to have to assume the duties of a primary caregiver for me. Different families have different cultural expectations of one another. This happens to be the way we do things in my family.

 

[Walt34]

But I'm wondering...why did they have to be around the (forgive me, cruel term) "crazy people" while they were in their independent apartment? I thought the advantage of the"gradually descending" types of CCRCs was that, while you know the dementia ward is around the corner, you don't actually have to live in it yet.

When my mother was in the CCRC apartment she said there were some who were borderline - they could still live independently but were starting to "lose it". I never saw anyone wandering the halls who had clearly "lost it" and was carrying on a conversation with the floor clock.

Mom was pretty laid back about such things so as long as they weren't hurting anybody it didn't bother her.

 

[Mulligan]

Put yourself in their shoes -which, God willing, we will all be in, one day.



You only have a short bit of life left, and you are supposed to spend it in THAT place with THOSE people Not while you can still get out of bed under your own power!



But I'm wondering...why did they have to be around the (forgive me, cruel term) "crazy people" while they were in their independent apartment? I thought the advantage of the"gradually descending" types of CCRCs was that, while you know the dementia ward is around the corner, you don't actually have to live in it yet.



Amethyst

Part of the problem is "small rural" versus "big city". Those big city options aren't available in small rural areas. Most of us from a small town have no desire to ever move to a big city even for that reason. If you didn't want to go to daily to same local restaurant or cook, you had to eat with the captive audience. And all "group activities" were with those people onsite also. So in effect you were separate, but not really.
And ultimately....it just isn't home....


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[WhoDaresWins]

I have a responsible adult son who is my POA, durable POA and executor. He lives out of state, but I know I can count on him to manage my finances if I were unable and to find me a suitable residence if I could not remain at home. That said, I hope that I am realistic enough to see myself slipping before some catastrophe would befall me and to book myself into a continuing care facility if hiring home care was not sufficient. There are some pretty nice places in my area, and I believe I could be quite content if I had my own room or small apartment. My son is a bachelor and if he remains one say 20 years from now when I am in my early 80's and he is in his early 50's I could also see proposing some arrangement with him whereby we might share a house provided there was separation in living space and I also had some hired help for things like personal care and housekeeping . We get along well, he is easy going and if he were agreeable it might work out. We have never discussed this last option so I don't know if he would be aghast at the thought. Of course I do hope he meets Ms. Right, gets married and has a family in which case I would not want a house share so as not to interfere.

 

[braumeister]

They still tell me fascinating stories (I'm talking about people 20 years older than me, 87 to my 67). But I have NO idea what they talk about amongst themselves.

+1
I had two very dear friends who were both more than 20 years older than me. I took great delight in being around them, but alas they are both gone now. Both were WW II vets and they had wonderful stories to tell. If I heard a particular story more than once it never seemed like a problem because each retelling featured slightly different details.

I count myself extremely fortunate that they both seemed to enjoy my company as much as I enjoyed theirs.

I also feel very lucky that I have a great friend who is more than 20 years younger than me, and we have a very similar relationship.

 

[Options]

Oddly, I have always loved being around old people, ever since I was a little girl. They seem so wise and have such interesting stories to tell...

+1!

I have always looked to older people, since young, as they always had such wisdom. Which is probably why now retired I am (even more) unhappy with where I live (until I move, soon)--over 50% of residents in my particular (extremely trendy) city are in their 20's and 30's, with everything that goes with that. I hang out with people older than me as much as I can.

I have no one. Sisters and brothers but will probably outlive them given my health is exceptional and theirs not so. I'm not at all worried. I've been extremely independent and self-sufficient since I was in my 20's. On extremely rare events, like a minor surgery, I had friends help a bit. I'll do so again should the occasion arise.

If I begin getting incapacitated in any manner I'll deal with it the way I always have--with a plan. Having almost died previously, I'm already aware of my ability to deal with declining health and pending death. Looking back, I'm amazed at how good a job I did dealing with every aspect, particularly given my young age at the time and the whole experience was so shocking and unexpected. I intend for any similar future events to be handled just as effectively.

 

[youbet]

An hour a month online by my daughter from her home in Oregon would not be excessive to ask of her, I would think? Different families have different cultural expectations of one another. This happens to be the way we do things in my family.

Yes. There are different cultural expectations from family to family as you say. And I'm all for everyone leading their lives (and ending their lives) in their own ways consistent with their own cultures, beliefs, etc. In no way am I suggesting that the way we do things is the way anyone else should do things.

The way we're working with my MIL is fairly typical for both sides of our family. When she became unable to live independently, we educated ourselves on elder law through some reading and also a bit of professional help. Then we helped her find the best NH situation possible given her specifics. I felt she should have done more of this prep work herself while she was able, but she didn't. It wasn't too tough a process and, as a by-product, we learned a lot of useful information that will be helpful in planning for ourselves.

For the past couple of years, we visit MIL from time to time and DW monitors and helps with healthcare decisions. Recently this included a meeting with a palliative care team at the NH as her health has deteriorated and "comfort" is more relevant than "cure." DW's brother handles the finances although MIL has now switched from private pay to Medicaid so there aren't many finances left to worry about......

This amounts to more than the "hour a month" you mention. But it really hasn't been a "burden." There's a lot of space between one long distance hour per month and caring full time for sick, elderly parents in your home. We think we've found a comfortable (for us - I understand your feelings are different) arrangement.

We're hoping that if it's needed, we'll have a similar arrangement with our son and DIL. We would never want to require their help with life's basic needs. I've done my best to ensure that those services will be affordable within our FIRE plans. (Conservatively self-insured.) DS, who sees and understands how we are helping his grandmother without it being a huge burden, has volunteered to do the same for us if needed. And I'm laying down the plans so that there will be less for him to do than we had to do for MIL.

My only point for this thread is that you can have a child (or someone) involved in your elder care without that child ever spending a minute with you living in their home, changing your diaper, feeding you, etc. But it would be darn helpful, in my experience, if the child (or someone) would oversee finances so you aren't ripped off and monitors, even at arm's length, your care. And I suppose being involved in end-of-life decisions (monitoring that your documented wishes are being followed) would be nice too.

Stopping by with the grandkids once in a while would be a nice plus too!!