Gary Taubes' Newest Book

[RonBoyd]

RonBoyd...I must have missed something. What is this software you are using?

Now, that was my fault for not providing context. If you "Search" the Forums for "NutriBase" with my User Name (RonBoyd), you will find, at least, three other threads along these lines.

Anyway, the program can be found here:

NutriBase Diet Software for Individuals and Families

(To those "Troll" paranoiaiacs, I have no interest in this company/program other than as a user.)

 

[Midpack]

Another new and somewhat unconventional book on the subject. I'm tempted to buy & read it...

 

[RonBoyd]

I'm still stuck back on the old calories-in vs. calories-out theory. I watched the video above, and I've read some of Taubes' newsmag pieces (though not his books), and I'm just not persuaded. It may be that insulin spikes and all that typically stimulate appetites with the result that we tend to over eat, but I am not a slave to my appetites. Whether or not I get hungry, I can choose to eat less, and when I do, I will lose weight. It really does work.

I agree with what you are saying but... You will notice that both HaHa and I consumed 1,600-1,700 calories in a day WITHOUT being hungry. I don't know if that can be done in the normal (read government recommended) high Carb/low Fat diet. (I would be curious about your daily calorie count, for instance.) Again, hunger can, of course, be overcome by sheer will power but again I ask "Why"?

 

[DeborahB]

When I'm eating low carb or just regular (with carbs) I don't eat low fat any more. I find I feel better and less hungry if I don't restrict fat. So far no heart attacks and I just ignore the standard diet advice my otherwise excellent internist gives me. So far not on cholesterol meds. I think we are intended to be omnivores and that includes fat (and it tastes so good!)........

When I'm trying to lose weight (on LC) I do really strict Atkins. It's quicker and more satisfying than any other diet plan I've tried.

Right now I'm just kind of maintaining. I need to start losing again, but not right now. Maybe February. I am trying not to gain, so far only put on a pound at Thanksgiving... Small portions.

 

[RAE]

I've found good substitutes for most things, and am not at all bored:

Carb Food, Substitute
----------------------
Chips, Pork Rinds
Pasta, Dreamfields Pasta
Waffles, Same made with CarbQuik
Pancakes, Same made with CarbQuik
Biscuits, Same made with CarbQuik
Chocolate, Chocolate made with artificial sweetener or Chocoperfection
Cranberry Sauce, Cranberry Sauce made with artificial sweetener
Beer, Michelob Ultra
Milk, Michelob Ultra, A&W Diet Root beer
Bread, Oopsies
Cake and Cookies, Waffles with 0-carb syrup and butter or brownies made with CarbQuik
Mashed potatoes, Cauliflower mash with lots of heavy cream and butter

For other things that have no near-equivalents, there's the satisfaction of eating lots of bacon, butter, cream, and rib-eye steaks.

Thanks for the tips, Al. I've been doing the low-carb thing (somewhat modified) for about 6-7 months now, and it has really worked for me. Dropped 20 lbs., blood pressure came down, and I feel great. I did have to modify it somewhat, though, because I found that if I ate no grains whatsoever (as I did for the first few months), I had a hard time maintaining my weight (and I did not need to lose any more weight at that point). So, I added small portions of some grains back into my diet (mostly brown rice, a little barley and wild rice), and I can now maintain weight (without adding any), and my BP remains good. I'm scheduled for a blood test in a couple months, so we'll how the cholesterol, HDL/LDL, triglycerides, etc. turn out, but I'm guessing they will be okay.

I've tried the Dreamfields Pasta, and even though the carb content is supposed to be low, I noticed that it did raise my BP a bit, and it also started putting some weight back on, so I stopped eating it. I hadn't heard of the CarbQuick product until now, so I'll give that a try. I did give up bread completely, and although that was hard at first, I don't miss it at all anymore. I don't care to use any artificial sweeteners or drink diet sodas (or any soda), but I don't have a sweet tooth anyway, so I don't miss the sugar (I occasionally have a piece of dark chocolate). I eat a fair amount of red meat......mostly lamb (that I get locally from a farmer) and wild game (deer), but also some beef and chicken. I eat two farm eggs every day with my breakfast also. I don't eat a lot of bacon, because I can't find the uncured bacon around here, and I don't want to consume cured meat products (too many nitrates/nitrates). I don't eat any lunchmeat or other processed meats either, and I don't miss them at all. I eat a lot of veggies........whatever is in season (lots of veggies from my garden during the summer and fall). I do drink beer (my wife brews great beer, so there is no way I can not drink a few beers now and then .......).

I'm still learning, and chances are I will continue to modify my diet based on how I feel and how the blood work turns out. But right now, I'm pretty comfortable with it.

 

[GregLee]

(I would be curious about your daily calorie count, for instance.) Again, hunger can, of course, be overcome by sheer will power but again I ask "Why"?

I've never counted calories, personally. My method of dieting is to avoid foods which, rumor has it, do have lots of calories, and are not very good for me, either: sugar, starch, fat.

Why depend on will power rather than a method which reduces appetite? No reason. In disagreeing with Taubes' ideas, I am concerned with the question of truth, not efficacy. I never meant to imply that his, or other similar recommended regimes didn't work to take off weight. But he seems to be saying, and that video linked to says, that the traditional theory that weight gain is due to taking in more calories than you use is wrong. But it's not wrong -- it's right. This does not mean that the best way to lose weight is to simply reduce intake calories -- that's another matter altogether.

 

[RonBoyd]

But he seems to be saying, and that video linked to says, that the traditional theory that weight gain is due to taking in more calories than you use is wrong. But it's not wrong -- it's right.

Actually, what they are saying is along the line of it makes a difference where those calories come from -- if from Sugar (natural or through the body's starch conversion process) the calories gets stored away, while those from Fats, Protein, and Alcohol are burned up right away.

No one disputes that excess calories are a cause of weight gain. It's that Carbohydrates are so much more efficient at putting the pounds on. If you have a need for storing energy (like an Athlete before an event) than Carbs are the way to go. However, unless you use those calories, for that type of activity, before taking in more, they will simply sit there waiting.

Again, I am unsure if I am that qualified to explain this since I am only just beginning my "tour of Discovery."

 

[CoolChange]

Now, that was my fault for not providing context. If you "Search" the Forums for "NutriBase" with my User Name (RonBoyd), you will find, at least, three other threads along these lines.

Anyway, the program can be found here:

NutriBase Diet Software for Individuals and Families

(To those "Troll" paranoiaiacs, I have no interest in this company/program other than as a user.)

If you are interested in a free and open source alternative (probably not quite a feature rich), take a look at CRON-O-Meter

I have used this for a couple of years and am even considering making some enhancements and submitting them to the project.

 

[RonBoyd]

If you are interested in a [-]fee [/-]free and open source alternative (probably not quite a feature rich), take a look at CRON-O-Meter.

Good catch. I would have, certainly, considered this program... had I only known of it. It looks to be all that is needed.

I did, however, start with Nutribase about five years ago and now am fully "invested" in it.

 

[ERD50]

I'm still stuck back on the old calories-in vs. calories-out theory. I watched the video above, and I've read some of Taubes' newsmag pieces (though not his books), and I'm just not persuaded.

In other words, calories in/calories out is true, but not helpful in understanding weight gain or loss.

I'm with GregLee on this one. What I saw in that lead in is they say Calories in/out is not true. That's the problem I have with Taubes - I read one of his early pieces, skimmed his books, and though he may be right about a lot of this, his presentation is so twisted (IMO) that it raises red flags for me. Doesn't mean he's wrong.

I think what he is saying (and I believe to be mostly true), is not that C-in/out doesn't matter, but there are food choices which are more satisfying, and therefore you are more likely to stick to the diet. Then say that. He loses me when he seems to misrepresent stuff.

Recall the 'twinkie diet'? The guy lost weight through calorie reduction, regardless of the food type. And I think a normal person could not stick to that diet - but it adds evidence that C-in/out do matter.

I've found good substitutes for most things, and am not at all bored:

Carb Food, Substitute
----------------------
Beer, Michelob Ultra

OFGS. I think calling that stuff (I can't even type the name) a 'good' substitute for real beer must be in violation of one of the forum rules, or at least it should be. Might as well call a hand-drawn flip book a substitute for attending a 3-D movie in a first rate theater. Or Ameriprise a 'good substitute' for index investing! I wonder if this diet is affecting your judgement (j/k)?

In a similar vein, I have seen studies that the sugar substitute stuff doesn't lead to people losing weight (may actually lead to weight gain). Note I said 'lead to', not 'causes'. The explanations were that the sugar substitutes trigger the body to expect that sugar rush, and when the body doesn't get it it creates cravings for even more food. So it actually worked against the goals, people and animal studies showed they took in more overall calories and gained more weight with the sugar substitutes.

I eat very little sweet stuff (stick to black coffee, no sodas, very dark chocolate, etc...), not really an issue for me.

-ERD50

 

[tmm99]

Al,

Where do you buy your Carbquik? Do you buy yours online? I looked at their site for retailers, but I didn't find any stores near me.

Thanks!

 

[RonBoyd]

Where do you buy your Carbquik? Do you buy yours online? I looked at their site for retailers, but I didn't find any stores near me.

Netrition.com has it: Carbquik

There is this site but, for my Zip Code, there were no Retailers: Where to find it

 

[tmm99]

I hadn't been lowcarbing (well, compared to the average person, I eat less carb, but I had been slipping...)

My fasting BS (blood test at the Dr's office) last time was 101 (1 point over the normal range - it actually didn't have 10 hours in between because I had to work late and ate a small meal before going to bed), so I bought a glucose meter and have been checking again. I have also bought a A1C kit and it was 5.6 (which isn't great.) I actually went through this (self-checking) over 10 years ago and I consider myself pre-diabetic (my BS went up high (180-200) when I ate a lot of carb, although the low (fasting) was pretty good - between 75-90, and it looks like the trend is still the same 10 years later....).

I am noticing though that my BS may be, say 130 one hour after I eat something with some carb with some protein, but if I chase it with a big portion of protein and fat, the BS goes down to 100 very quickly. (Isn't that strange or what?)

Anyway, I am not into sweets too much (except for dark chocolate and occasional donut holes at work when I am really tired) and I don't like the taste of sweets with splenda or stevia (both tastes pretty horrible to me. I experimented with low carb bread, pasta, etc 10 years ago too but there wasn't nothing that tasted good enough at the time...), but I do have a box of xylitol (I bought it years ago and is still half full. It is birch sugar used in toothpaste etc). Xylitol to me has no strange artificial flavor and it is not supposed to affect our blood sugar although it has calories (1/2 of regular sugar) and much better than mannitol and sorbitol (I did research on this like 10 years ago but I cannot remember what the reason for that was anymore...)

I am not overweight by the way (5'5 120 lb), so I do need some carb.

One serving of al dente Dreamfield pasta with a little butter (by itself without any accompaniment of protein) raised my BS to 140. I need to repeat the test with tons of fat and protein along with the pasta and see...

 

[tmm99]

Netrition.com has it: Carbquik

There is this site but, for my Zip Code, there were no Retailers: Where to find it

Thank you Ron. I just looked up the ingredients and it has splenda in it which is usually a deal breaker for me, but I am sure others will appreciate the link you posted. The price looks really good. I may even try it and see if the splenda in it is so small that I could even like this thing.

 

[RonBoyd]

I just looked up the ingredients and it has splenda in it which is usually a deal breaker for me...

So what do you suggest for a no-Carb Sweetner?

 

[Katsmeow]

I've been very interested in the Taubes point of view and did a lot of reading to try to come to terms with what the research really shows. While I do think Taubes has made some good points, I don't have a lot of respect for what I feel is often cherry picked data and a lot of ignoring of data he doesn't like. I also think he tended to cherry pick quotes from people to make it seem like they supported his views when they don't.

From all the research I've read I do think that, in general, lower carb eating is better for most people. For some people who want to lose weight, low carb eating may be the best way to lose weight.

I also believe that protein is generally more satiating than carbs and that more calories are burned when eating protein than carbs (indeed, this is the foundation of the new WW program).

I also think that recent studies have shown that low carb eating can be effective for weight loss and that it isn't unhealthy.

But....

It is also clear that any of the main weight loss program -- low calorie or low fat for example -- are also effective for weight loss and low carb programs are not more effective than the other programs.

For the individual it may matter a great deal. I will likely never lose much weight on a low fat program as I won't stay on it. For another person, low fat might work better than low carb. Other people may feel that low carb eating works well for them and will be more successful and for that person it may be.

The research -- when looked at broadly and not with an agenda -- just doesn't support the notion that low carb eating results in significantly better weight loss. It would nice if it did, but it doesn't.

 

[HFWR]

I've been very interested in the Taubes point of view and did a lot of reading to try to come to terms with what the research really shows. While I do think Taubes has made some good points, I don't have a lot of respect for what I feel is often cherry picked data and a lot of ignoring of data he doesn't like. I also think he tended to cherry pick quotes from people to make it seem like they supported his views when they don't.

From all the research I've read I do think that, in general, lower carb eating is better for most people. For some people who want to lose weight, low carb eating may be the best way to lose weight.

I also believe that protein is generally more satiating than carbs and that more calories are burned when eating protein than carbs (indeed, this is the foundation of the new WW program).

I also think that recent studies have shown that low carb eating can be effective for weight loss and that it isn't unhealthy.

But....

It is also clear that any of the main weight loss program -- low calorie or low fat for example -- are also effective for weight loss and low carb programs are not more effective than the other programs.

For the individual it may matter a great deal. I will likely never lose much weight on a low fat program as I won't stay on it. For another person, low fat might work better than low carb. Other people may feel that low carb eating works well for them and will be more successful and for that person it may be.

The research -- when looked at broadly and not with an agenda -- just doesn't support the notion that low carb eating results in significantly better weight loss. It would nice if it did, but it doesn't.

Much of this is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...

The SAD (standard American diet) is so bad that nearly anything would be an improvement, and the "food pyramid" touted by government and industry is misleading at best. The anti-fat mantra is arguably wrong-headed, and the crap we've chosen to replace fats in the diet are likely causing more harm than good. Excess omega-6, transfats, and polyunsaturated fats all contribute to inflammation, which is a major marker, if not contributor, to arterial disease. Thus, lard or butter are better than the margarine or canola oil used as "healthier" replacements.

No doubt that calories in/out is a/the major factor in weight gain/loss. The types of food eaten, however, affect weight maintenance, or lack thereof, though to a lesser degree. But "paleo" type foods also affect lipids and blood sugar levels differently (positively?).

Anyway, since the evidence is good for "eat real foods, not too much", I'll attempt to follow it, and won't fret it I can't/won't follow a strict "anything" diet. I'm mindful of the big three of sugar, seed oils, and wheat, but sometimes you just gotta have a pizza or a slice of pie!

 

[tmm99]

So what do you suggest for a no-Carb Sweetner?

I'm sorry to say I don't have any suggestions for a good tasting no-carb sweetner. If you don't mind splenda, Carbquik would probably be something you want to try. If you are not doing something like Atkin's induction diet, you could probably try making your own bisquik kind of mix using almond flour or coconut flour and some real wheat flour, ricotta cheese, eggs, birch sugar (xylitol) or even a little bit of real sugar.

 

[RonBoyd]

I'm sorry to say I don't have any suggestions for a good tasting no-carb sweetner. If you don't mind splenda...

I was just curious. I don't have a problem with the taste of Splenda or Erythritol -- wet finger dipped in bowl. However, I do prefer Splenda in Hot Cocoa rather than Erythritol -- and I can't explain it -- so there must be something afoot.

On the other hand, I do not like the effects of other artificial Sweetners -- Aspartame, for instance.

 

[kyounge1956]

So what do you suggest for a no-Carb Sweetner?

What about Stevia extract? It's plant-based, and many times sweeter than sugar. You can probably find it at your local health food store, and I have also seen it in some "regular" grocery stores. My bottle doesn't have any nutritional info on it, but the serving size is so small (1/64th of a teaspoon) that even if it were pure carbohydrate, the amount would be insignificant. I don't think there are many prepared foods that use Stevia rather than aspartame or other artificial sweeteners.

 

[RonBoyd]

What about Stevia extract? It's plant-based, and many times sweeter than sugar. You can probably find it at your local health food store, and I have also seen it in some "regular" grocery stores.

You know, I think I seen that in WalMart today -- not sure though since I didn't buy anything in that aisle. I will pick up some the next time (if so). Thank you.

 

[DeborahB]

The SAD (standard American diet) is so bad that nearly anything would be an improvement, and the "food pyramid" touted by government and industry is misleading at best. The anti-fat mantra is arguably wrong-headed, and the crap we've chosen to replace fats in the diet are likely causing more harm than good. Excess omega-6, transfats, and polyunsaturated fats all contribute to inflammation, which is a major marker, if not contributor, to arterial disease. Thus, lard or butter are better than the margarine or canola oil used as "healthier" replacements.

I think the reason I didn't do well on weight watchers (haven't tried it since 2001 or so) was that I didn't eat a standard American diet - I eat no fast food, no regular sodas, a lot of vegetables, mostly whole wheat bread. And yes, sugar & salt - but not in the quantities in the SAD. The minute I go both low fat and low calorie, I am starving all the time. As I got older the weight loss on WW was so slow that I gave up.

The low carb diet works for me, I just don't stay on it for life. One funny thing - I would salivate in the pastry/bakery department of the grocery store when I hadn't had any of that for a while. Marvelous what our bodies can do...

I did find - in the past - that the minute I added any low carb "bread substitutes" to my diet, I stopped losing weight. After a while, I just did Atkins induction level to lose weight. No attempt to have fake anything.

OTOH I never tried CarbQuik.

I have friends who turned me onto a carb blocker pill that works for them. It worked for me, I think - it's worth trying. It's some kind of bean derivative. No sugar substitute in it - supposedly it neutralizes carbs you eat. They almost always have it (and everything else) on sale...

Swanson Ultra Ultimate Carb Control C-120X 2 mg 90 Tabs - Swanson Health Products

 

[RonBoyd]

I have friends who turned me onto a carb blocker pill that works for them.

I am intrigued by the Dreamfields' Pasta products. They claim that some 30-40 Carbs per serving of their products are "non-digestible" leaving only 5 net Carbs per serving. I don't have any "hungers" for Pasta but I may check this out. (As ya all suspect, I do miss bread -- although absolutely nothing else.)

 

[ERD50]

I've been very interested in the Taubes point of view and did a lot of reading to try to come to terms with what the research really shows. While I do think Taubes has made some good points, I don't have a lot of respect for what I feel is often cherry picked data and a lot of ignoring of data he doesn't like. I also think he tended to cherry pick quotes from people to make it seem like they supported his views when they don't.

Yes, from what I recall, this is exactly what bothered me about his writings.


-ERD50

 

[RonBoyd]

I've been very interested in the Taubes point of view and did a lot of reading to try to come to terms with what the research really shows. While I do think Taubes has made some good points, I don't have a lot of respect for what I feel is often cherry picked data and a lot of ignoring of data he doesn't like. I also think he tended to cherry pick quotes from people to make it seem like they supported his views when they don't.

Yeah, like I said earlier, I hope his new book is easier (less work) to read.