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Old 01-27-2011, 10:56 AM   #141
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Whatever the truth of any of this may be, I predict that Taubes' gospel will fall by the wayside over time.
My guess is that it will take at least 10-20 years, but that low-carb will eventually gain mainstream acceptance. An analogy is the gradual acceptance of "good" fat like olive oil. We've gone from "avoid all fats" to "eat more healthy fats."

Studies like the ATOZ diet experiment have people paying attention, but we still have to wait for current nutrition experts to die off or retire.

The biggest problem is: corn and wheat. The agriculture industry could never accept this change. Others believe that the pharmaceutical industry could never allow a decrease in their cash-cow diabetics.

But just look at all the overweight and obese people around you -- if the low carb hypothesis is correct, then it has to win out eventually.

OTOH here is something from 1869 which one might have thought would turn the tide towards low carb.
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:23 AM   #142
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My guess is that it will take at least 10-20 years, but that low-carb will eventually gain mainstream acceptance. An analogy is the gradual acceptance of "good" fat like olive oil. We've gone from "avoid all fats" to "eat more healthy fats."

Studies like the ATOZ diet experiment have people paying attention, but we still have to wait for current nutrition experts to die off or retire.

The biggest problem is: corn and wheat. The agriculture industry could never accept this change. Others believe that the pharmaceutical industry could never allow a decrease in their cash-cow diabetics.
Not to mention the power the government has in pushing the "Calories in, Calories out, Low Fat, High Carb" regimen. It takes a pretty strong willed brave doctor to risk being sued for Malpractice when the Plaintive has the backing of the U.S. Government... even if he/she personally practices a Low-carb diet.

There is a neat quote in Why We Get Fat (Page 216):

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"As Blake Donaldson said in his 1962 memoirs, no matter how well someone does on the mostly meat diet that Donaldson prescribed, "any disaster that may overtake him, even to the extent of ground moles getting in his lawn, will be blamed on his diet."
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Old 01-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #143
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But just look at all the overweight and obese people around you -- if the low carb hypothesis is correct, then it has to win out eventually.
I have been watching the 4 hour series from history channel called Third Reich- the Rise, and Third Reich, the Fall. There are lots of home movies, street scenes, etc. Germans in the interwar period are well fed, but the degree of extreme obesity that is seen in America today just isn't present. Another obvious thing is how physically well coordinated and active they are. At a festival mature adults are up dancing, and it is clear that they do a lot of this, as the couples are practiced and smooth and both men and women are very comfortable as dancers. Also, compared to today, everyone's posture is excellent-dancing, walking, riding on horseback. These people are clearly comfortable with movement.


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OTOH here is something from 1869 which one might have thought would turn the tide towards low carb
I read this too. Who knows why people keep doing self defeating ineffective things. But we know that they do, and likely always will. I lot of it likely comes down to "Who do you want to believe-[authority], or your lying eyes?"

I just want to be sure that I am not counted in that crowd of dummkopfs.

Ha
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:36 PM   #144
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But just look at all the overweight and obese people around you -- if the low carb hypothesis is correct, then it has to win out eventually.

OTOH here is something from 1869 which one might have thought would turn the tide towards low carb.
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I read this too. Who knows why people keep doing self defeating ineffective things. But we know that they do, and likely always will. I lot of it likely comes down to "Who do you want to believe-[authority], or your lying eyes?"

Ha
That old article, like much of what I read from the low carb fans, is not an indictment of carbs, it is an indictment of refined carbs (underline mine). I think it's fair to say that most dietitians do not support a diet high in refined carbs - so there is no tide to turn:

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My former dietary table was bread and milk for breakfast, or a pint of tea with plenty of milk, sugar, and buttered toast; meat, beer, much bread (of which I was always very fond) and pastry for dinner, the meal of tea similar to that of breakfast, and generally a fruit tart or bread and milk for supper. I had little comfort and far less sound sleep.
I don't see any of the complex carbs in his former diet that many are recommending - whole grains, legumes, potatoes.

For me, this is like trying to prove that exercise is bad by giving an example of someone who overdid it and hurt themselves.


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But just look at all the overweight and obese people around you -- if the low carb hypothesis is correct, then it has to win out eventually.
And if it's not correct? As haha points out, activity is certainly a factor, as is calories in.

-ERD50
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Old 01-27-2011, 12:59 PM   #145
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I don't see any of the complex carbs in his former diet that many are recommending - whole grains, legumes, potatoes.
-ERD50
#1, I am not an acolyte or true believer. I would quickly go back to eating refried beans and tacos if it seemed to work for my needs- which is keeping my blood sugar low and even, and my blood fats OK and my energy up and discomfort down. Don't mind the social benefits of being an older, lean man either.

Back to tacos would be way cheaper for one thing, plus more easily portable to places less blessed with cheap protein than the US is.

But I am not sure "complex carbs" are all that different from simple carbs, or that these terms are even very helpful. As it is used, "complex" seems to translate into "good". OTOH, if complex means oligosaccharides, a look at this chart will show that a lot of so-called complex carbs look the same to the body as their corresponding refined products-eg white bread vs whole meal bread. Really, all grain products are complex, whether the whitest of bread or the most granola infested hippy loaf. Milling takes away much of the protein covering, but it doesn't change the nature of the polysaccharides that make up the starch. Anyway, as soon as bread gets chewed up and mixed with saliva those polysaccharides start being cleaved into maltose- a disaccharide made up of two glucose molecules, one step from being as simple as a sugar can get. Table sugar, the white messenger of death to all right thinking people is no different- its just a disaccharide made of one glucose molecule and one fructose, although fructose and glucose are handled differently by the body. Still, a bite of an apple is a concentrated hit of fructose, and what nutritionist would warn us about apples?

Really, it all seems to be just nonsense. I suspect that "complex carbs" is just a good marketing phrase, that also fits well with the simple-minded understanding of dieticians and popular nutritionists. This newest fad is "resistant carbs". Who knows, I suspect there may be something to this, but it will take some self experimentation to find out. Meanwhile, its good marketing.

Glycemic Index and Glycemic Load

Ha
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:10 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by haha;1029554[COLOR=black
Really, it all seems to be just nonsense. I suspect that "complex carbs" is just a good marketing phrase, that also fits well with the simple-minded understanding of dieticians and popular nutritionists. This newest fad is "resistant carbs". Who knows, I suspect there may be something to this, but it will take some self experimentation to find out. Meanwhile, its good marketing.[/COLOR]
Exactly. And I repeat:

"There are Essential Amino Acids and there are Essential Fatty Acids but there are no Essential Carbohydrates."
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:11 PM   #147
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T-Al, didn't you say once that Mrs. T-Al's results with lo-carb weren't the same as yours? I wonder if the regimen is more effective for men.
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:24 PM   #148
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T-Al, didn't you say once that Mrs. T-Al's results with lo-carb weren't the same as yours? I wonder if the regimen is more effective for men.
Yikes! Some surprise that was... let me show you how many results Google returns:

low-carb +"men vs women" - Google Search

Anyway, everyone has a food or group of foods that stalls the weight loss process. It is just a matter of discovery. In my case, I have isolated Caffeine as one candidate. Diary products seems to affect a large number of people in that way... anecdotally women seem to represent more than men.

And, of course, there is always that plateau that all diets have in common... the one that only perserverance cures.
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:27 PM   #149
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Yikes! Some surprise that was... let me show you how many results Google returns:

low-carb +"men vs women" - Google Search

Anyway, everyone has a food or group of foods that stalls the weight loss process. It is just a matter of discovery. In my case, I have isolated Caffeine as one candidate. Diary products seems to affect a large number of people in that way... anecdotally women seem to represent more than men.

And, of course, there is always that plateau that all diets have in common... the one that only perserverance cures.
And that's why I don't keep a diary
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:14 PM   #150
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Yikes! Some surprise that was... let me show you how many results Google returns:

low-carb +"men vs women" - Google Search
This search is a treasure trove of off the beaten path ideas and people. Young men can get geeky about anything it appears.

Check this out! Turns out that all this somehow explains why women in Mediterranean countries are so good looking.


Dusk in Autumn: Why French, Spanish, and Italian women now look even better than ours
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:51 AM   #151
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As haha points out, activity is certainly a factor, as is calories in.
Let me try one more time:

Fat Mice And The Laws of Thermodynamics

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The researchers were at a bit of a loss to explain why the calorie-restricted mice grew fatter, but I’m pretty sure we can rule out gluttony and sloth. They suggested perhaps the mice were reacting to the stress of a limited food intake.

“Reacting,” of course, means something hormonal was going on. (It wasn’t thyroid hormone. The researchers checked.) Perhaps the calorie-restricted mice produced more cortisol. Perhaps evolution geared the mice to respond to the threat of starvation by accumulating more fat, even if it means sacrificing lean tissue.

The point is, they didn’t get fatter by eating too much, and they didn’t get fatter because they decided to expend less energy. They began to expend less energy (in spite of being just as active) because they were being hormonally driven to accumulate more fat, even on less food.
As always, the Comments are as important as the Article.
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Old 01-28-2011, 09:27 AM   #152
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T-Al, didn't you say once that Mrs. T-Al's results with lo-carb weren't the same as yours? I wonder if the regimen is more effective for men.
Yes. She dropped a lot of weight in the first few days, but the loss has been very slow since then, with a lot of variability. For me, it was very regular, with less variability.

Whether its a gender thing or just the fact that everyone is different, I don't know.
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Old 01-28-2011, 11:24 AM   #153
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A woman named Janet Ruhl runs a diabetes/low carb website- she states that she "rarely eats more than 100 gm of carb per day". This is low by comparison to US averages, but not particularly hardcore. She controls her DM well on this and as I remember some insulin. Her last A1C was 5.7.

She says that she has a hard time staying thin on this regime. It seems to me that miiddle aged women tend to have more trouble with any weight loss attempts than men do, but my perception may only be this because women are more likely to talk about their difficulties, and also will try weight loss for appearance while after a certain age it seems that men often need a doctor ordering them to lose weight before they will give it much of an attempt.

Ha
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Old 01-29-2011, 09:36 AM   #154
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It seems to me that miiddle aged women tend to have more trouble with any weight loss attempts than men do, but my perception may only be this because women are more likely to talk about their difficulties, and also will try weight loss for appearance while after a certain age it seems that men often need a doctor ordering them to lose weight before they will give it much of an attempt.

Ha
Or more likely telling them they will die if they don't lose weight. Even then it's 50/50 whether they'll listen.
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:43 AM   #155
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I have not read all the post, but here is something I have been wondering about. Does not human waste, i.e. poop, contain calories? If so, and I suspect it does, then how is this figured into calories in calories out?

Most diet books tell you 3,200 calories equal a pound. Eat 3,200 calories than you burn, and you will gain a pound. Well if part of that 3,200 is discarded in waste, does this hold true?
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:48 AM   #156
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I have not read all the post, but here is something I have been wondering about. Does not human waste, i.e. poop, contain calories? If so, and I suspect it does, then how is this figured into calories in calories out?

Most diet books tell you 3,200 calories equal a pound. Eat 3,200 calories than you burn, and you will gain a pound. Well if part of that 3,200 is discarded in waste, does this hold true?
Only before your morning routine. Always weigh post-pooping.

Ha
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Old 01-29-2011, 11:55 AM   #157
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I have not read all the post, but here is something I have been wondering about. Does not human waste, i.e. poop, contain calories? If so, and I suspect it does, then how is this figured into calories in calories out?
Yes, that is true. And that is exactly why the "Law of Thermodynamics" argument doesn't hold up. The "Law" applies only to a "closed system" and living creatures are anything but -- stuff goes in and stuff goes out independent (well, mostly) of what happens inside.
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Old 01-29-2011, 01:22 PM   #158
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I started an experiment of one a few days ago and am eating as close to zero carbs as possible. I've never been much of a meat eater and my spouse is vegetarian so it is odd to eat this way. I felt ill for a couple of days. Today I dropped the effort, other than ditching the sweets, to see if the sick feeling is coming from eating too much meat. I may try again but skip the fattier meat.
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Old 01-29-2011, 01:35 PM   #159
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I have not read all the post, but here is something I have been wondering about. Does not human waste, i.e. poop, contain calories? If so, and I suspect it does, then how is this figured into calories in calories out?

Most diet books tell you 3,200 calories equal a pound. Eat 3,200 calories than you burn, and you will gain a pound. Well if part of that 3,200 is discarded in waste, does this hold true?
It was absolutely fascinating to Google "how many calories in poop."

Anyway, this thread on the bike forums has long detailed posts from RichinPeoria who seems to know what he is talking about: How many calories do we poop? [Archive] - Bike Forums
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:42 PM   #160
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It was absolutely fascinating to Google "how many calories in poop."

Anyway, this thread on the bike forums has long detailed posts from RichinPeoria who seems to know what he is talking about: How many calories do we poop? [Archive] - Bike Forums
Great link. My favorite part:

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An interesting example is cut lawn grass! If thoroughly washed, it is safe to eat. But human digestion virtually cannot digest any part of it, so the entire amount passes through the gastro-intestinal canal and gets excreted, while giving essentially ZERO Calories of food value to the body! (With salad dressing, it tastes similar to salad greens!) I tried that once to see if such an idea might represent a diet possibility for obese people who insist on eating massive amounts of food. It wasn't bad!
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