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"Lipitor Paradox"
Old 03-17-2011, 11:17 AM   #1
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"Lipitor Paradox"

I have no idea whether the info in this video has been substantiated, but I intend to do more research. For the past year, my doctor has urged me to take a statin for my cholesterol which hovers around 200. I have resisted so far, and will likely continue to do so. Anyhow, I found this interesting.

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Old 03-17-2011, 11:27 AM   #2
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Love it!! And it makes some pretty good points, it seems to me, if it is correct.

When my cholesterol came out high several times in a row (about five years ago), my doctor was really terrific about the situation, I think, because his response was, "So, what do you want to do about that?" I looked at him blankly, and at my next six-month appointment suggested a statin. So, it was my decision and not his (though I was tempted to respond, "See a doctor?" since I felt he was shirking some responsibility). I am still taking Vytorin. My mother took statins and lived to 98.

But as the video points out, maybe she and I spent money on something that is worthless and potentially harmful.

A dear friend recently got switched from statins to another cholesterol lowering drug, due to side effects. Hopefully he will be able to tolerate the substitute for statins.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:38 AM   #3
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That was great SarahW. Thanks for posting.

Like many geezer guys, I'm on a low dose of lipitor (10mg) initiated by a cardiologist. I saw the cardiologist because of a poor result from a stress test which turned out to be a false positive. Despite the false positive and a good outcome from an angiogram, he put me on lipitor and sounded exactly like the doc in the cartoon you posted. My primary care doc is looking for an excuse to take me off. He's been whipping me to exercise a little more, take off 20 lbs and eat more healthy foods so he can recommend ditching the daily statin dose. My cholesterol level is about 100, relatively unchanged from the pre-lipitor level.

Other than picking up the exercise level and taking off the weight, which may or may not happen - I'm trying, it's hard to make the decision to not renew the lipitor prescription. I understand if the stress test had not had the false positive, I'd not be on lipitor today.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:45 AM   #4
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I havent' watched the video yet, but total cholesterol doesn't provide an accurate picture.

It is the bad cholesterol number that is the concern. My total cholesterol is above 200 but my good cholesterol is high while the bad is low. I would ask doc what your ratio is and why he thinks a statin is right for you specifically (family history, other tests) or does he just push the drug 'for everyone with a cholesterol over 200'.
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Old 03-17-2011, 11:57 AM   #5
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I havent' watched the video yet, but total cholesterol doesn't provide an accurate picture.

It is the bad cholesterol number that is the concern. My total cholesterol is above 200 but my good cholesterol is high while the bad is low. I would ask doc what your ratio is and why he thinks a statin is right for you specifically (family history, other tests) or does he just push the drug 'for everyone with a cholesterol over 200'.
The second tenet of the cholesterol-heart disease hypothesis, the notion that high cholesterol levels in the blood cause heart disease, is referred to as the “lipid hypothesis” in the scientific community. Though it still accepted as gospel truth by the general public and many medical professionals, most researchers now believe the primary causes of heart disease are inflammation and oxidative stress. Unfortunately, the rest of us haven’t gotten the memo, so to speak, that cholesterol isn’t the cause of heart disease.

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/cholest...-heart-disease

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Old 03-17-2011, 11:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Lisa99 View Post
I havent' watched the video yet, but total cholesterol doesn't provide an accurate picture.

It is the bad cholesterol number that is the concern. My total cholesterol is above 200 but my good cholesterol is high while the bad is low. I would ask doc what your ratio is and why he thinks a statin is right for you specifically (family history, other tests) or does he just push the drug 'for everyone with a cholesterol over 200'.
I'm not going to go back to the cardiologist who put me on lipitor. Just wound up not liking him although he didn't kill me during the angiogram (I've had extraordinarily bad outcomes from invasive procedures in the past). I think my primary care doc would not have put me on statins but now is hesitant to take a lead role in pulling me off (overrule the cardiologist) because there is a family history of heart issues and borderline high bp (125/85). I know if I'd take off 20 - 30 lbs he'd use that as a documented reason to pull the plug on lipitor.

I'm due for a physical and the usual round of tests. I'm thinking that I need to get those results and really challenge why I'm on lipitor and even make a strong suggestion that I want to drop it and retest in 6 months.
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Old 03-17-2011, 12:16 PM   #7
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The second tenet of the cholesterol-heart disease hypothesis, the notion that high cholesterol levels in the blood cause heart disease, is referred to as the “lipid hypothesis” in the scientific community. Though it still accepted as gospel truth by the general public and many medical professionals, most researchers now believe the primary causes of heart disease are inflammation and oxidative stress. Unfortunately, the rest of us haven’t gotten the memo, so to speak, that cholesterol isn’t the cause of heart disease.

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/cholest...-heart-disease


Thanks for sharing. I had read that inflammation was key and that cholesterol wasn't the cause, but I didn't know there were such definitive studies. The drug companies definitely don't want us knowing this or it could hurt some of their cash cows.
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Old 03-17-2011, 12:19 PM   #8
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Funny video. Sounds like my doctor. He was whipping out his Rx pad for me to get on it, and my numbers are still in acceptable range. He said he has been on it for 10 years as protection not because of high numbers either. I told him I had recently started taking fish oil and he chewed me out for taking the mercury poisoned dietary supplements and said I should get the pharmacuetical form that is pure. I'm taking my chances with the mercury poisoned supplements and avoiding the poisoning of my wallet currently instead
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Lisa99 View Post
I havent' watched the video yet, but total cholesterol doesn't provide an accurate picture.

It is the bad cholesterol number that is the concern. My total cholesterol is above 200 but my good cholesterol is high while the bad is low. I would ask doc what your ratio is and why he thinks a statin is right for you specifically (family history, other tests) or does he just push the drug 'for everyone with a cholesterol over 200'.
Yeah, this definitely affects the doctor's actions. I've had total cholesterol between 200 and 220 for the past 15 years, but my doctor hasn't prescribed any medication because my HDL/LDL ratio is very high. On the other hand, my wife's total cholesterol is nearly the same, but with a low HDL/LDL ratio, and the doctor has had her on a statin for the past ten years.

Great videos, by the way.
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:52 PM   #10
 
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My family has a history of high cholesterol but no history of heart disease. My cholestoral has been as high as 300. After trying various drugs without success my doctor put me on Lipitor. I was tested on January 25th and had a cholesterol level of 152 plus LDL, HDL & Triglycerides were all in the normal range.
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Old 03-17-2011, 04:11 PM   #11
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My doc had me on Lipitor and then switched me to an alternate because my insurance won't pay for the extra Lipitor costs. I too have a family with high cholesterol but low heart disease. I plan to discuss dropping the statin with he doc next time.
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Old 03-17-2011, 05:56 PM   #12
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So what do the meta studies say?

And if inflammation is a major problem, shouldn't we be doing the test for inflammation? And if it is high what do you do for inflammation? Aspirin?

(My mother died of second heart attack at age 39, father died of heart attack at 63, after many years of heart failure. His first heart attack was when he was in his early 40s. I am in my mid 50s and so far so good. My inflammation level is "moderate" according to CRP test)
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:14 PM   #13
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About 3 years ago I presented my doctor with an article about Lipitor, and asked several questions. He got so angry at me, that I switched doctors. The next doctor was very concerned about my high BP and several other things. After a year things are stable. I take a generic, and break it in half. I don't believe everything I hear.
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Old 03-17-2011, 06:46 PM   #14
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The second tenet of the cholesterol-heart disease hypothesis, the notion that high cholesterol levels in the blood cause heart disease, is referred to as the “lipid hypothesis” in the scientific community. Though it still accepted as gospel truth by the general public and many medical professionals, most researchers now believe the primary causes of heart disease are inflammation and oxidative stress.
Is that really what "most researchers now believe"? I'm very distrustful of these journalistic forays into medical science. I looked up this article to see what substantiation might be offered for this claim about "most researchers". There is no substantiation given at all. The article says "Yet a recent study in the Journal of American Medical Association indicated that high LDL cholesterol is not a risk factor for from coronary heart disease (CHD) mortality or total mortality (death from any cause)."

Well, the article in JAMA, Lack of Association Between Cholesterol and Coronary Heart Disease Mortality and Morbidity and All-Cause Mortality in Persons Older Than 70 Years, November 2, 1994, Krumholz et al. 272 (17): 1335 , is from 1994 (is that "recent"??), studied only "persons older than 70 years", and it concludes "Results. —Elevated total serum cholesterol level, low HDL-C, and high total serum cholesterol to HDL-C ratio were not associated with a significantly higher rate of all-cause mortality, coronary heart disease mortality, or hospitalization for myocardial infarction or unstable angina after adjustment for cardiovascular risk factors."

So, should we conclude there is some sort of consensus in the research community that high LDL cholesterol does not increase the risk of coronary heart disease? I can't find any evidence for that in the article.
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Old 03-18-2011, 06:27 AM   #15
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Is that really what "most researchers now believe"? I'm very distrustful of these journalistic forays into medical science. ...

So, should we conclude there is some sort of consensus in the research community that high LDL cholesterol does not increase the risk of coronary heart disease? I can't find any evidence for that in the article.
Thanks. I have been hearing anti lipitor anecdotes for a while - enough that my curiosity is raised. But not enough to conclude that the "research community has concluded" anything. It was only a couple of years ago that I read articles in the paper about studies showing that doubling down on Lipitor and driving cholesterol levels way below what was previously considered good dramatically lowered the risk of heart disease. So go figure. I think I will keep reading this stuff and may consider dropping the statins if I conclude the researchers really are reaching consensus and a few doctors I know and trust are seconding that.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:30 AM   #16
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I view all studies as just another piece of data.

Studies used to say coffee is awful, recently studies say coffee cuts stroke risk and is good for you. Some studies say salt is the devil, others say that not all are affected by salt's negative aspects.

I believe in all things in moderation and I take no medication (even over the counter) unless I can be given a compelling argument for why I personally NEED it....not just because the pharma tells the doc that everyone in a certain profile is a candidate.

There is evidence that over medication is incredibly common and I don't choose to go there quietly.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:41 PM   #17
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:48 PM   #18
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[QUOTE=target2019;1048282]About 3 years ago I presented my doctor with an article about Lipitor, and asked several questions. He got so angry at me, that I switched doctors. QUOTE]

How dare you question the learned and incredibly wise advice of the Zen Master !

On your knees to behold his greatness !

You are not worthy !
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:22 PM   #19
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[QUOTE=MasterBlaster;1048598]
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About 3 years ago I presented my doctor with an article about Lipitor, and asked several questions. He got so angry at me, that I switched doctors. QUOTE]

How dare you question the learned and incredibly wise advice of the Zen Master !

On your knees to behold his greatness !

You are not worthy !
LOL. I was talking with my anonymous internet buddies about the drugs you prescribed...

OTH, new doctor spends a lot of time with me. Maybe she only has one patient?

Seriously, I have a lot of respect for most doctors. Several family friends practice in Europe. For some reason, one looked me in the eye and said "you have a thyroid problem." It took my American guy a few years to sort through the tests, and then send me to a specialist, who totally botched the thyroid biopsy (ouch!).
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Old 03-18-2011, 04:27 PM   #20
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I may have posted this before, but a few months back Dr Graveline gave a brief lecture on the affects that Statin drugs had on him. This guy is a research Dr, former astronaut. A statin based drug was the first drug he had ever taken, he suffered several episodes of transient global amnesia. This fueled his curiosity and research into the statin drugs. Here's a link to his page and info on various drugs etc.

His stance is that the FDA and the AMA objectivity is gone due to influence of Pharmaceutical industry. BTW his research supports the findings that Mickj pointed out earlier.

Statin Drugs List
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