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Old 04-13-2013, 10:48 AM   #61
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Agreed, for those with disorders. However, everyone can get a salad at McDonald's with coffee instead of a Big Mac, large fries, and large chocolate shake.

By the way the new MdDonald's wraps look great. And they are about 400 calories only. You can make two meals with that, plus exercise, and I promise you will lose weight.
The choice between a salad and coffee versus a Big Mac, fries and chocolate shake is not one I would like to have to make.

I would like to add a third choice - A big plate of steamed vegetables with about one TBS of butter (or perhaps a squeeze of lemon and a TBL of olive oil) to add flavor, a quarter pound of meat or fish prepared with some good seasonings, and a small bowl of yogurt with some berries on top. Coffee, milk or water for a beverage, no sugary drinks.

IMHO, my third option will provide good nutrition and satiate our hunger for many hours. That is the key. The BigMac, fries and shake meal is far to many calories that will not provide good nutrition, and will leave one hungry again in only few hours as blood sugar bounces up and down. The salad and coffee meal will leave one hungry again in an hour a so and thus open to snacking on any available junk food.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:56 AM   #62
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I'm not sure I follow or buy your M&M example. If you use a 5'11" man, a BMI of 20 is 144lbs. To get to a BMI of 35, that same man would have to put on 106 lbs
The way I read the BMI chart, a 5'11 man could go from the normal zone to the obese zone in 50 lbs.
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when you get up to around 22 or so, wouldn't you think "Hey, maybe those M&Ms are making me put on weight?" Either cut out the M&Ms, or cut back a little on something else?
That's why I said "presuming those two candies did not change your appetite". The point of the post was that exclusive focus on the "calories in / calories out", and ignoring the influence of metabolic influences that a high carbohydrate diet as on appetite, is missing a big part of the equation.

50lb human fat equates to about 175,000 calories. Spread those calories over 15 years (I said age 20 to 35), you get 11,667 calories per year. At 3 meals a day, that's 10.6 calories per meal. So if an M&M was 5 calories, I'd be in the ballpark. Again, the point is that appetite is EVERYTHING! If you ignore the metabolic bully, you're leaving a lot on the table.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:58 AM   #63
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I think that before I'd get behind a big intrusive government push, I'd start by just having the government stop being a part of the problem.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:58 AM   #64
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Indeed. And this is where effort, dedication and commitment to one's diet come in. No one said losing weight would be effortless :-) .
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The salad and coffee meal will leave one hungry again in an hour a so and thus open to snacking on any available junk food.
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Old 04-13-2013, 11:10 AM   #65
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Some Guy,

Everyone is different but most people that try the low-cab diet report the opposite. They are not hungry and lose weight. The diet does not require you to count calories at all. Just steer clear of carbohydrates and you will lose weight. Almost guaranteed.
I think you missed his point. I understood him to say he finds a no-carb or very low carb diet to difficult to maintain. I have the same problem. Whether it is ultra low carb or ultra low fat, I can't do it. My body rebels. I get hungry soon after eating, I don't feel good. Adding a bit more carbs or fat of the healthy variety keeps my body working well and allows me to avoid snacking on junk food, over eating between meals, etc.

N=1. Do what works right for you.
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Old 04-13-2013, 11:13 AM   #66
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I would like to add a third choice - A big plate of steamed vegetables with about one TBS of butter to add flavor, a quarter pound of meat or fish prepared with some good seasonings, and a small bowl of yogurt with some berries on top. Coffee, milk or water for a beverage, no sugary drinks.
We have a winner! I agree so much with this. And Chuckanut, to your name's sake, I'd add in a few nuts for a snack later on.

THIS is what has gotten me by. I get my carbs. I don't do no carb. I don't go around eating pork skins. That works, but I'd hate it. I get my carbs from veggies, yogurt, nuts, whole fruit that kind of thing. And I add in meats, eggs and cheeses for the protein.

There is no friggin' decent fast food place to get that big plate of steamed vegetables with or without meat. Fortunately, I have a nice Chinese take out place near work that gets me by. And they let me substitute sauteed cabbage in place of rice.
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Old 04-13-2013, 11:33 AM   #67
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Indeed. And this is where effort, dedication and commitment to one's diet come in. No one said losing weight would be effortless :-) .
Effortless? - I did not meant to say my third choice was effortless, only that it worked better for me than the other two presented.

But, speaking of effort....

It takes effort to eat good wholesome food rather than junk food and other prefabricated stuff. But I put my effort, dedication and commitment into proper eating so I don't have to put effort into surviving while suffering from a diet that does not work well for me. Hey, if somebody can function well at work and at home on a lunch of coffee and a salad, go for it! And I certainly won't argue against exercise, I do it almost every day.


Alas, diet and food are almost a religious issue with many people (no referring to anybody in particular here) . Ultra low-carb people don't accept that some of us don't need to cut back carbs that much. Vegetarians don't understand that some of us do fine eating meat. The low-fat crowd doesn't understand that many people respond poorly to not having sufficient fat in the diet. Paleo people don't understand just about everybody else.

This isn't religion. It's about N=1, doing what works for you.
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Old 04-13-2013, 11:40 AM   #68
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[QUOTE="Aruba50;1308779"

You probably go out and have a nice steak in a restaurant while your tenants are chowing down on french fries or pasta. Something they can afford to feed their larger families.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I don't go to a lot of restaurants. I prefer to do it the way my mom did - farm to table and everything prepared from scratch. I eat everything, just not a lot, and from all the food groups. It is a way of life for me passed on from my immigrant family. I never have to diet or watch what I eat because I am active and consume food in proportions appropriate for my frame and age. Diet is the biggest money making gimmick in this country.
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Old 04-13-2013, 12:01 PM   #69
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I have a theory that some smaller men and women pack on pounds so they can occupy more space in the world, and therefore avoid being run over in crowds, shoved off benches, etc. You may laugh, but my petite, 100-pound mother was routinely shoved, bumped into and almost knocked down by others. I used to act as her "bodyguard" (almost literally) when my dad wasn't with her. Mom was not frail, she was just small. I suspect if my mother had been fatter, she would not have been treated like a spot on the floor to be walked over.

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I am absolutely sure you are correct. Look at the approving word substantial, it is taken to signify wealth, power, importance in the world, having weightiness of opinions and attitudes.

At base, it means having or being of substance. Basically, a 160# women has more substance than a 100# pound one, and people might be less likely to shove her around, figuratively or physically.

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Old 04-13-2013, 12:58 PM   #70
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We have a winner! I agree so much with this. And Chuckanut, to your name's sake, I'd add in a few nuts for a snack later on.

THIS is what has gotten me by. I get my carbs. I don't do no carb. I don't go around eating pork skins. That works, but I'd hate it. I get my carbs from veggies, yogurt, nuts, whole fruit that kind of thing. And I add in meats, eggs and cheeses for the protein..
This is exactly what a low carb diet looks like. It is what works for me. I am not into no-carb where the side dish is pork rinds. I eat lots of salads and vegetables but very little fruit. Fruit is not so good because of the fructose most of them contain.

Basically, if you can keep below 30g of carbs, you will do just fine.
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Old 04-13-2013, 02:39 PM   #71
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I realize there are nuances to different foods and that nutrition is constantly evolving. However, the ultimate equation is that if you consume more calories than you use, you put on weight. If you consume fewer calories, you lose weight. If you match evenly, you stay steady.
Finally. Calories are units of energy. Maybe it'd be better if we referred to food energy as "joules" so we can avoid the dietary baggage of the (kilo)calorie.

There's no doubt some metabolic vitamin absorption issue involved but the hard reality is that calories in < calories out = loss of weight.

I eat a high carb diet myself. I maintain weight because I consume the same calories that I expend. There's no bacon-fat-egg-protein magic about it.
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Old 04-13-2013, 03:12 PM   #72
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Who would write the curriculum? Dean Ornish? We'd have another 30 years of obesity, hehe.
I have no idea who Dean Ornish is. I do know that, growing up in a lower middle class, barely above the poverty line immigrant family, my sibling and I were all talk how to cook and to cook healthy. This was done by my parents, who did not have great "book" knowledge but had a lot of common sense knowledge. I do feel that the lack of basic cooking skills contributes to obesity. At least you have some control over exactly what goes into the food.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:15 PM   #73
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+1

The obesity in the US has come on quite suddenly in the grand scheme of time. It's unlikely that our genetics have changed that quickly, so that means the cause is ultimately behavioral.
Doesn't mean that at all. It means the cause is environmental. In this case it's the increased in processed foods with added sugar, fat and salt along with advertising changes, increased portion size in restaurants and probably a lot of other social changes as well.

If one person's behavior changes or that of a small number of people changes, then it can be explained by individual choice. But if a large number change like fish in a school, the individual explanation is not adequate--it must be a change at the system level. Since genetics is unlikely to be that change it must be something else.

The belief that large scale social problems can best be understood as the result of individual choices beggars belief. Certainly the advertising industry in America doesn't believe it for a minute. Want to have X million people smoke your brand? Here's the price tag.
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:43 PM   #74
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I have no idea who Dean Ornish is. I do know that, growing up in a lower middle class, barely above the poverty line immigrant family, my sibling and I were all talk how to cook and to cook healthy. This was done by my parents, who did not have great "book" knowledge but had a lot of common sense knowledge. I do feel that the lack of basic cooking skills contributes to obesity. At least you have some control over exactly what goes into the food.
Dean Ornish is the god father of low fat dieting. He was the last one to admit that adding fish oil to the diet was a good thing. He's a real no fat zealot. Since protein is pretty much the same across diets, that means Dr. Ornish is the high carb diet king. People like him, that refuse to see the more recent science, would probably be the ones who write the curriculum and would go low fat again, plunging us into continued obesity.

A to your comment about cooking, I'm in agreement. If you really cook like your parents, and maybe they learned from folks from the old country, I'm not surprised that you cook healthy food. That is, unless they were swayed by the low fat dogma, and quit cooking like your granny did. My granny was from Wisconsin, ate lots of butter, cooked with butter and lard, never crisco transfat, never margarine. She always served whole milk (yum)! She lived to be 102. My mom, on the other hand, fell just a little bit for the manufactured food hype, but at least she still always bought real butter!
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:06 PM   #75
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That's why I said *ultimate* cause is behavior. Perhaps the environment influenced the behavior. But that is like saying I take no blame for going bankrupt through spending more than I earn for years on end and instead blaming it on the banks who lent me too much money (i.e., nearly free money and lax underwriting) or my next door neighbor who drives a 7-series BMW.

All the money in the world spent on advertising won't get me to smoke. Or most of my healthy friends, either.

But we're quickly heading into worldview and personal philosophy here, so let's just agree to disagree.

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Doesn't mean that at all. It means the cause is environmental. In this case it's the increased in processed foods with added sugar, fat and salt along with advertising changes, increased portion size in restaurants and probably a lot of other social changes as well.

If one person's behavior changes or that of a small number of people changes, then it can be explained by individual choice. But if a large number change like fish in a school, the individual explanation is not adequate--it must be a change at the system level. Since genetics is unlikely to be that change it must be something else.

The belief that large scale social problems can best be understood as the result of individual choices beggars belief. Certainly the advertising industry in America doesn't believe it for a minute. Want to have X million people smoke your brand? Here's the price tag.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:14 PM   #76
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But we're quickly heading into worldview and personal philosophy here, so let's just agree to disagree.
+1 Everybody knows that processed foods are junk. They can't affect your choices if you walk on by.

Why would anyone who thinks that processed foods make him powerless to control his eating ever go near a processed food? It makes no sense.


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Old 04-13-2013, 11:25 PM   #77
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Dean Ornish is the god father of low fat dieting. He was the last one to admit that adding fish oil to the diet was a good thing. He's a real no fat zealot. Since protein is pretty much the same across diets, that means Dr. Ornish is the high carb diet king. People like him, that refuse to see the more recent science, would probably be the ones who write the curriculum and would go low fat again, plunging us into continued obesity. ...
But Dean Ornish is not obese, is he?

I recall getting his book from the library years ago. As I recall, he had all sorts of data to justify his claims, just like the low carb people.

But I just skimmed it - I just could not imagine cutting fat to those low levels. I couldn't do it unless there was some super-proof that it was the only thing that would keep me from an extremely miserable health situation, so I didn't read much of it in detail.

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Old 04-14-2013, 06:48 AM   #78
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There was a time when low fat was hyped so much that we were told to avoid avocados, walnuts and almonds.

Now, I know too much of anything is bad, but to put an absolute restriction on such healthy goodness cannot be correct.

Similarly, on the other side, I think absolute restrictions against any wheat at all is going too far.
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Old 04-14-2013, 08:53 AM   #79
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Back in 1985, we didn't have the Internet to help spread the gospel of Being Fat Is Good:

Big Fat Blog | The fat acceptance weblog.

Was anyone aware there is a segment of academe known as Fat Studies?
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:19 AM   #80
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An interesting blurb about macronutrient requirements...

Calculating Calorie & Macronutrient Needs - Bodybuilding.com Forums
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