Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-27-2011, 12:22 PM   #41
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Purron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
SunsetSail and Purron, I'm glad your choice is working for you. However, as the saying goes, the plural of anecdotal is not data. I'm sure I could dig up anecdotal evidence of all sorts of diets working for people, of people happy with their diet. According to the sources that Ha provided, just about any approach seemed to bring long term weight loss. Plus, I'm not sure your approach really fits what Taubes would call 'low-carb', but that might not matter.
-ERD50
I'm not trying to present data or argue this is the best approach for you or anyone else. Since I haven't studied Taubes, I can't say if my diet fits what he calls "low carb".

Just saying in my case, cutting down on carbs and sugar helped me look better and feel better. My Doctor's happy too.
__________________

__________________
I purr therefore I am.
Purron is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 05-27-2011, 12:50 PM   #42
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webzter View Post

But, I'm wondering about other factors. For someone with other factors, it looks like a low-carb diet may (may) help. Just in glancing at the charts on the article you linked, I see there was an immediate reduction in triglyceride levels. These rebounded over time but I'm wondering if that's always true... and, selfishly, as I'm paying a higher life ins premium due to triglyceride levels, I'm now armed with a way to get those numbers down at least for the window of a retest (of course, I'd want long term changes)

I'd think portion control wrt insulin resistance would benefit no matter, especially in restricting refined carbs and sugars. I wonder if there are certain populations where low-carb would benefit significantly more though. Ha and Al's comments lead me to think they're at least seeing benefits in this area (anecdotal evidence and all that of course).
From what I've read, I do think there is evidence that low-carb may be a healthy way to eat. The thing is that so much of what you read wants to over simplify things.

To me there are a lot of variables and people like Taubes (and people on the other side of the view as well) tend to oversimplify. Some of the factors I see:

Is eating low-fat healthier? Does eating low-fat help weight loss? I don't see a lot of evidence that it is healthier in and of itself and I don't think it helps weight loss except to the extent that you reduce portions of high fat foods and therefore may reduce calories. So on this -- I think the low carb people have the better argument.

Take a diet that is high in carbohydrates, low in protein, with lots of refined sugars and highly processed foods. Lots of drinking sugary drinks, lots of candy, cakes doughnuts, chips, ice cream, cookies, etc. The evidence seems clear that this is very unhealthy. Portion control may help weight but this is just not healthy. I agree with the low carb people on this as well.

Take a diet that is high in carbohydrates but doesn't have refined sugars and highly processed foods. It is high in carbohydrates due to complex carbs and eating fruits and veggies. This type of diet can work well with weight loss. The low carb people seem to basically say this diet is also unhealthy. I don't think the evidence is really there to say that this is an unhealthy diet. This is the area where I think things are more uncertain and the low carb people go well beyond the evidence.
__________________

__________________
Katsmeow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2011, 11:26 PM   #43
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
ERD, you are an excellent internet argument guy, ...

Ha
I appreciate your candidness, even if the message was, well, what it was. Well, I don't expect you to believe this, but 'argument' was not even on my radar screen at any point in this thread. It's not where I was coming from at all. I am trying to understand the issue, yes I challenge what is put out there to learn, to critique, and to see what info seems to hold water. I don't see where I'm going for a 'win' of that sort. The only 'win' for me is clearer information. Regardless my intent, you clearly perceived it as argumentative. I dunno, I'm tempted to blame that disconnect on the lack of 'tone' in a post. A short story -

I've got an old friend, we often challenge each other on some thought or another, to test one or both of our views and see what holds up. Since we know each other well, this is no-holds-barred, just to save time and cut to the chase. Either of us may say something like ' C'mon, don't be stupid - A does not lead to B, you can't just ignore xyz...', and it's no problem. Yet, we had a recent email exchange, it was some insignificant side subject, and it quickly blew way out of bounds. I guess I misread his tone, joked back, he misread that, kicked it up a notch, and it was suddenly getting way heated. I had to call him and say - woah, this really isn't a big deal to me, and we're getting all excited - let's just drop it and pick it up later face-to-face if we want.

All I can say is, every word I put out there was said in a totally 'flat' tone. No 'gotcha', or snarkiness intended at any point. If I did anything to put an argumentative spin on this, I apologize, but I honestly don't know where it would have started, because it was just totally outside of the way I was thinking. I'm just trying to get some clarity on this issue. And yes, it is frustrating - the studies seem to overlap or conflict or say who knows what?

Maybe this is a mistake (won't be my first or last), but I'll try to touch on a few of your issues:

Quote:
You don't get mad, you are unfailingly polite,
Thank you Well, I have nothing to get mad about. I'm looking for info. Only thing that would make me mad is someone trying to send me on a wild goose data chase when I'm trying to be serious. I know people get attached to ideas, and sometimes don't like to be challenged, so I try to be polite about the challenges. Is that being read as what I think Martha called 'Minnesota nice'?

Quote:
you selectively pull up anecdotes, then studies, then chide others for thinking that anecdotes are data.
I may use anecdotes to illustrate, but not prove a point. Or I might use them to show that another's anecdote is just that. I wasn't 'chiding' SunsetSail and Purron for their anecdotes - I was merely attempting to point out that as related to this subject anecdotes are just anecdotes. We can't derive much of anything 'big picture' from them, other than they had their own personal success, which is great.

Quote:
You misinterpret or misstate authors such as Taubes statements, but in a way that would be just too hard and too boring to try to counter.
I may well be (unintentionally) guilty of this. It's been a while since I read him, but the recent reports seem to match what I recall. But that could be my faulty memory. Yes, it can be a lot of work to set the record straight if I was wrong, and I sometimes don't feel like putting in the effort on a thread myself, even one I've gotten very involved in. So I can't blame you if you don't choose to pursue the corrections, but I wish you would!

Quote:
...remember that for most of us it is easier to go cold turkey on some category of pleasure or experience, than to limit it. The first is qualitative. Is this an ear of corn or an egg? OK, egg, I can eat it. Compare to -let's see, I think I have had 1800 calories so far today, I wonder if this flan is 200 calories worth of dessert, or 100?
OK, I can see how that could work.

Quote:
If a person has found a method, used it for at least several years, and stays lean and happy and comfortable, they have found their own answer. All the rest is a bit abstract.
I'm pretty sure I've been agreeing with that all along.

I dunno, there is just something not right for me between T-Al's pretty regular stream of super-pro-low-carb-why-isn't-everybody-doing-this-posts and what I see as a lack of backup that it is so much better than anything else. It may be a personal preference, sure. But is it clearly for everybody, over other options? That's were I get lost.

-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 12:47 AM   #44
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Nice reply. Anyway, no one pays me to help people get or stay thin, so everyone is on their own.

I did have an interesting experience today. I was down at Uwajimaya, a large local Asian grocery/ meat market/ fish market/ food court etc. I saw lot of thin Asian women and men, including some well into middle age. Tonight when I was at my woman friend's house I mentioned this, and what she told me was most of her Asian women friends would not be caught dead fat, so they apply an iron will to the issue, and eat very very little. They are cute, but the cost may sometimes be discomfort. An anecdote to be dismissed, but very likely true.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 05:19 PM   #45
Full time employment: Posting here.
mountaintosea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 553
How everything plays out in blood analysis, I think, is genetic. My cholesterol went from 178 to 212 this past year. What was different? I ate a wonderful slice of aged cheddar cheese once a day and I reduced my carbohydrate intake to under 150 gms. a day. My fasting glucose went down from 100 last year to 94. My triglycerides increased slightly to 44. My HDL went from 64 to 74. LDL from 106 to 129. Of course I received a letter in the mail telling me to pick up some Zocor. Test my liver function in a month and return in 6 months for another test. What am I really doing? I stopped eating that wonderful cheese. In fact I knocked it out of my diet completely. Oh yes I haven't knowingly eaten meat since I was 18. But I did start eating fish some years back. AND I don't consume a lot of junk food. Genetics I'm sure.
__________________
mountaintosea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 05:34 PM   #46
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,201
This article discusses cholesterol and low-carb. It says that the method that is used to calculate LDL doesn't work well when triglycerides are low, and talks about differences in LDL molecules.

The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D. Low-carbohydrate diets increase LDL: debunking the myth

LDL can be measured directly, as it's done here for Gary Taubes cholesterol numbers.

Before sugar, we were talking about cholesterol | Gary Taubes | Gary Taubes
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 06:08 PM   #47
Full time employment: Posting here.
mountaintosea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 553
Really interesting articles. So my LDL went up because of keeping my carbs under 150? Hmm I'll see what happens in 6 months. I went that route to reduce my fasting glucose. I don't think Kaiser would measure my LDL directly. I think I read this all before here when you first started your journey some years back. Thanks for posting. No weight problem here. Most of my fats are from olive oil, fish, nuts etc.
__________________
mountaintosea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 06:34 PM   #48
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountaintosea View Post
Really interesting articles. So my LDL went up because of keeping my carbs under 150? Hmm I'll see what happens in 6 months. I went that route to reduce my fasting glucose. I don't think Kaiser would measure my LDL directly. I think I read this all before here when you first started your journey some years back. Thanks for posting. No weight problem here. Most of my fats are from olive oil, fish, nuts etc.
If you want to dig a little deeper into what might be going on here, read this Diabetes Update: Insight into Why A1c Correlates So Strongly with Heart Attack

This woman is very smart and very responsible.

My 1 hr post meal glucose is usally less than 100, though I am sure I had some years where it was quite a bit higher. I have been testing for 5 years or so, and have never had a post meal higher than 130. In my case, this would not be true on any diet other than low carb.

IMO, we must have a take no prisoners attitude toward blood sugar rises, no matter how short lived.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2011, 07:08 PM   #49
Full time employment: Posting here.
mountaintosea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 553
Thanks haha. I read the article. Maybe I should get a test kit. Never have tested after a meal.
__________________
mountaintosea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2011, 06:42 AM   #50
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,798
The way I've lost hundreds of pounds is the moderation diet. I found out about this diet when I was heavy into weight lifting. You can not cut out any one specific group from your diet if you like it. As T-Al said the hiker lost in the wood is going to pig out when they get back. If you really enjoy pizza, completely denying yourself will only result in a pig out. Having it once a week or every other week isn't a problem. Eat balanced meals with complex carbs, protein and fat. Just eat smaller portions and eat more frequently. I have used this and I have lost and gained a lot of weight. I have not updated my diet in many years, but I do cycle my eating with my workout. I gain fat (approximately 10-15 lbs) when I am trying to gain muscle, and I take all of it off come spring. I have spoke with many dietitians (we called them diet coaches) and the plan I use is what they recommend to their athletes. I train and eat like an athlete.

If there is a bona fide medical condition other than "the person is fat so they have an eating disorder" then a diet restricting certain food items might be the best option.
__________________
You don't want to work. You want to live like a king, but the big bad world don't owe you a thing. Get over it--The Eagles
lets-retire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2011, 04:16 PM   #51
Full time employment: Posting here.
mountaintosea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 553
I just saw the movie Forks over Knives. There's an interview with Colin Campbell who wrote The China Study. Basically he makes the case for going vegan. I read his book a while back. So he promotes the exact opposite of the articles posted here. It's 2 hours and interesting. Personally I don't need weight loss, I just want good numbers.
__________________
mountaintosea is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-2011, 10:20 PM   #52
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountaintosea View Post
I just saw the movie Forks over Knives. There's an interview with Colin Campbell who wrote The China Study. Basically he makes the case for going vegan. I read his book a while back. So he promotes the exact opposite of the articles posted here.
Many of these things will likely still be argued about when we are already planted in the ground.

So really, it boils down to "pay your money, and take your chance." One thing about doing whatever seems to make your weight better, your muscles larger and stronger, you endurance greater, your skin nicer, your energy higher, and your satisfaction greater is that these things are then in the bank. You are not barely tolerating a difficult abstemious life under the possibly vain hope that you will get a few extra difficult, abstemious years before you die.

Much as we may have unconscious fantasies that if we get the right diet, the right exercise program, the right medical care, we might just live forever- not gonna happen, and we would hate it if it did

When you look at quality, controlled reseach, nothing seems to make a very large difference if the endpoint is death.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2011, 10:43 AM   #53
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
HFWR's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Lawn chair in Texas
Posts: 12,964
If one visits a few of the paleo websites, there are enough links to keep one busy for a while, reading studies, refutations of studies, etc. Then make up your own mind...

My conclusions are as follows:

Calories in - calories out is the dominant force in weight, as such. You eat enough, of any macronutrient, you'll gain weight. If you starve enough, vice versa. This doesn't necessarily mean it's the healthiest way to maintain your "ideal" weight.

Complex carbs are just strings of sugar.

Low carb, in the context of the Standard American Diet (SAD), is still a significant amount of carbs.

Eat real food, not too much.

In the end, we can all move to Oregon, and take too much seconal...

__________________
Have Funds, Will Retire

...not doing anything of true substance...
HFWR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2011, 08:40 AM   #54
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post
If you want to dig a little deeper into what might be going on here, read this Diabetes Update: Insight into Why A1c Correlates So Strongly with Heart Attack

This woman is very smart and very responsible.

My 1 hr post meal glucose is usally less than 100, though I am sure I had some years where it was quite a bit higher. I have been testing for 5 years or so, and have never had a post meal higher than 130. In my case, this would not be true on any diet other than low carb.

IMO, we must have a take no prisoners attitude toward blood sugar rises, no matter how short lived.

Ha
Ha,

Thank you for this link. Very comprehensive.
__________________
tmm99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Tolstoy Understood Low Carb
Old 06-04-2011, 02:57 PM   #55
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Tolstoy Understood Low Carb

Reading Anna Karenina, written 1873-77, I ran across an interesting allusion to low carb eating for the purpose of losing weight. Thanks to the Kindle note taking feature I didn't have to get out of bed and look for pencil and paper to share it with you. Vronsky, a nobleman, is getting ready to ride in a steeplechase.

"On the day of the races at Krasnoe Selo, Vronsky had come earlier than usual to eat beefsteak in the common messroom of the regiment. He had no need to be strict with himself, as he had very quickly been brought down to the required light weight; but still he had to avoid gaining flesh, and so he eschewed farinaceous and sweet dishes."

And here is perhaps the first entire book to espouse low carb eating, written by Englishman William Banting in 1863. About William Banting, author of Letter on Corpulence, UK


Also, in another vein, here is more from Stephen Guyenet on a topic that I think is very unlikely to become the basis for a bestselling book-that dull, monotonous and bland tasting food leads to less obesity in those who habitually eat it.

Whole Health Source: Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part V

IMO, this is typical internet obsessiveness. Since starting to read some blogs and discussion boards in the last few years I have discovered how many truly obsessive, unblanced people there are out there in electronlandia. This guy Stephan actually tries to eat boring food for his health.

I have found that there is some effect. I hate boring food, but I hate cooking even more, so my meals have migrated more and more toward utilitarian attempts to stop hunger rather than adventures in taste. When you are eating only because you are beginning to notice a hole in your stomach, you naturally tend to eat less. Wine changes this, wine makes me feel a desire for tasty food, and sometimes energizes me to prepare it. Likewise, I love it when my woman friend cooks, as she is not this way. However, I may eat enough on these occasions to feel it the next day.

Coffee is interesting. I find I look forward to coffee the way I looked forward to candy on Halloween when I was a boy. Sometimes before bed I will want to hurry on an go to sleep, so that I will soon be waking up and making and drinking coffee. And my dance partner always makes espresso; I look forward to this almost as much as I look forward to dancing with her.

Ha
__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 04:00 PM   #56
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
Katsmeow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,400
Quote:
Originally Posted by haha View Post


Also, in another vein, here is more from Stephen Guyenet on a topic that I think is very unlikely to become the basis for a bestselling book-that dull, monotonous and bland tasting food leads to less obesity in those who habitually eat it.

Whole Health Source: Food Reward: a Dominant Factor in Obesity, Part V

IMO, this is typical internet obsessiveness. Since starting to read some blogs and discussion boards in the last few years I have discovered how many truly obsessive, unblanced people there are out there in electronlandia. This guy Stephan actually tries to eat boring food for his health.

I have found that there is some effect. I hate boring food, but I hate cooking even more, so my meals have migrated more and more toward utilitarian attempts to stop hunger rather than adventures in taste. When you are eating only because you are beginning to notice a hole in your stomach, you naturally tend to eat less. Wine changes this, wine makes me feel a desire for tasty food, and sometimes energizes me to prepare it. Likewise, I love it when my woman friend cooks, as she is not this way. However, I may eat enough on these occasions to feel it the next day.
I think there is something to be said for boring food. I've been working on losing weight, forever, it seems like. 20 years or so ago I got to my goal weight in Weight Watchers but as many do I slowly gained it back (accelerated by pregnancy weight gain).

I've been working seriously on weight loss (down 30 pounds from my high) and part of what is making it successful is to when I eat out not to not try so hard to find something extremely yummy tasting.

One problem I recognized that I had was seeing eating out as a "special occasion" where you should eat something highly pleasurable which tends to be things that are high calorie. That was fine when I was a kid and we eat out every month or two. Nowadays we eat out more so it was problematical.

So even when eating out I try to think of it as more eating fuel for the body and focusing more on calories and type of food rather than what is most pleasurable.

I also found that when I try to eat a wide variety of foods at home I tend to eat more.

Basically if I look at eating as a form of pleasure and enjoyment then I tend to eat more calories than if I look at eating more as fuel for the body and to not see it as a prime source of pleasure.
__________________
Katsmeow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 04:19 PM   #57
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Moemg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sarasota,fl.
Posts: 10,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsmeow View Post
I've been working seriously on weight loss (down 30 pounds from my high) and part of what is making it successful is to when I eat out not to not try so hard to find something extremely yummy tasting.

One problem I recognized that I had was seeing eating out as a "special occasion" where you should eat something highly pleasurable which tends to be things that are high calorie. That was fine when I was a kid and we eat out every month or two. Nowadays we eat out more so it was problematical.

.
I also find eating out problematic . The amounts they serve are huge and I get tired of taking doggie bags home . The worse for me is lunch . My gym pals like to do lunch on Friday's and I have to search for something to eat that is not laden with calories even the salads are huge and have high calorie counts . I usually just eat half and take the other half home to my SO or just order a plain salad .
__________________
Moemg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 04:30 PM   #58
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
Purron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moemg View Post
I also find eating out problematic . The amounts they serve are huge and I get tired of taking doggie bags home . The worse for me is lunch . My gym pals like to do lunch on Friday's and I have to search for something to eat that is not laden with calories even the salads are huge and have high calorie counts . I usually just eat half and take the other half home to my SO or just order a plain salad .
Same problem here. I have to think there's an opportunity here for a successful business venture...a restaurant chain that serves food for the diet conscious. Seems like most people I know are doing low calorie, low sodium, low carb, low fat, vegan, vegatarian, etc, etc, etc.
__________________
I purr therefore I am.
Purron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 05:19 PM   #59
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
TromboneAl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 11,201
Yesterday Lena and I got a half order of ribs (we smuggled in our own sugar free BBQ sauce) and we still needed a doggie bag.
__________________
Al
TromboneAl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2011, 07:21 PM   #60
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
haha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Hooverville
Posts: 22,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by TromboneAl View Post
Yesterday Lena and I got a half order of ribs (we smuggled in our own sugar free BBQ sauce) and we still needed a doggie bag.
Al, can you give a name and where to get this sauce? Or a recipe if you make it yourself?
Ha
__________________

__________________
"As a general rule, the more dangerous or inappropriate a conversation, the more interesting it is."-Scott Adams
haha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Anyone Watching Ice Road Truckers or Chasing Mummies? Telly Other topics 11 09-08-2010 04:53 PM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:27 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.