Berkshire Hathaway Now?

windsurf

Recycles dryer sheets
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
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352
I am a chump who pulled out (the irony of that challenge now versus forty years ago) :bat: in February ahead of (amidst) the doom and gloom. Wanting to average back in, how does Berkshire look right now as, say, a five year or longer play (Warren looks likes he's still got significant tread left)? :confused:
 
I am a chump who pulled out (the irony of that challenge now versus forty years ago) :bat: in February ahead of (amidst) the doom and gloom.
Hey, I spent a couple weeks of Feb rebalancing out at an average of $4700/share and watching the price go down as somebody dumped all theirs. Was that you?!?

Wanting to average back in, how does Berkshire look right now as, say, a five year or longer play (Warren looks likes he's still got significant tread left)? :confused:
Did you sell on an asset-allocation decision or a market-timing one? For us, it was ER-portfolio rebalancing and the kid's college fund. We're not adding to our current holdings. If you're not happy with your sale then you may experience difficulty with the next question.

Are you planning to buy as an asset-allocation decision or a market-timing one?

For us it's asset allocation. We still have 22% of our ER portfolio in Berkshire Hathaway and plan to keep it around 18-28%. I suspect that the next five years will look at least as good as the last five, except that Buffett will buy more foreign companies and fewer domestic stocks. I think that they'll experience explosive growth in their municipal-bond insurance business. I bet that supercat reinsurance rates will be a lot more profitable, too.

FWIW the annual meeting weekend starts in only five days (http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/meet01/2008meet.pdf). The share price will probably start to rise as CNBC and the rest of the financial [-]porn[/-] press flog the event. There may be an even bigger bump on 5 May as every other market-timer rushes into a thinly-traded stock, but Buffett's annual report worked very very hard to dampen unrealistic expectations and I expect that theme to be promulgated at the annual meeting.

Of course if Buffett drops on stage during the Q&A period, clutching a cherry Coke in one hand and a DQ Burger in the other and choking on a See's chocolate nougat, then all bets are off. Or if he announces that he's retiring from Berkshire to start a new hedge fund. Or if the CIO runoff winner is a turkey. But I believe that the shares are currently trading below their intrinsic value-- and far below the company's breakup value or its potential dividend rate.

Another great time to watch Berkshire Hathaway shares rise has been in Sep/Oct, after the Caribbean & northern Pacific hurricane seasons have wound down and if the company hasn't had a big hurt inflicted on it by a storm. But that price rise is usually caused by emotional investors who don't realize that Berkshire reinsures southern-hemisphere catastrophes as well as northern ones.

Maybe you'd be happier in an index fund or an ETF that happens to hold Berkshire shares.
 
I bet that supercat reinsurance rates will be a lot more profitable, too.
.

I bet not. That ship has largely sailed, unless Florida gets rid of its idiotic state-run cat insurance scheme.
 
But I believe that the shares are currently trading below their intrinsic value-- and far below the company's breakup value or its potential dividend rate.
Nords,

[major gaff deleted by the original gaffer]

It would seem that buying a company at a significant discount to its intrinsic value is a great opportunity. It is weird that BRK would be discounted in this way. What gives? 1/PE = 1/15 = ~ 6.7%. Not bad.
 
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It had a decent drop today after the bad Q1 earnings. I don't think there is a truly a bad time to buy Brk below $150K /5000 (b) but my almost useless crystal ball very hazily makes this observation.

The hoopla before during and after the Shareholder meeting has risen to unbelievable levels. Warren is making a conscious effort to raise the profile of Berkshire perhaps to make his phone ring more from oversea private business looking for a buyer. I think we will see an increase in the number of momentum shareholders and less long-term folks
like Nords and myself. We have seen an increase in volatility of the stock, and I don't think this is going to go away anytime soon.

As a shareholder I am less than thrilled with this (although the direction of the stock has been very positive over the last year). Watching your 1 share go up and down by >$10K in a few weeks reminds more of internet circa 1999 or financial 2008, than the Berkshire of old.

Finally, after GE I think Berkshire is probably the hardest big company to properly value. The concept of float is an integral part of understand Berkshire's value, I can say that after 6 years of reading and studying, I am still mostly clueless.

All that said, either Warren Buffett is one of the shrewdest, and yet most honest CEO, in America, or he is the best actor in the world. At some level buying Berkshire is an act of faith.
 
I am a chump who pulled out (the irony of that challenge now versus forty years ago) :bat: in February ahead of (amidst) the doom and gloom. Wanting to average back in, how does Berkshire look right now as, say, a five year or longer play (Warren looks likes he's still got significant tread left)? :confused:


Buy and hold Baby!
 
Their overvalued derivatives only accounted for 38% drop in profit. The rest (24%) was lower profits in their insurance businesses. That would indicate a correction of 24% to be valued according to last year.
 
My only fear in owning BRK is that Warren is 77 years old. No matter how many times he tries to assure the shareholders that he has a plan in place for his replacement, I still predict, if he were to suffer a heart attack, his stock price would plummet. JMO.
 
My only fear in owning BRK is that Warren is 77 years old. No matter how many times he tries to assure the shareholders that he has a plan in place for his replacement, I still predict, if he were to suffer a heart attack, his stock price would plummet. JMO.

And produce a buying opportunity?
 
I'm holding my BRKB. No question BRK is getting more volatile in recent years, and that doesn't bode well for what will happen when those burgers and steaks catch up with Warren. I think BRK is becoming a stock where nervous nellies shift their stashes when the TV pundits tell them the economy is in trouble. It seems to go up when the economy as a whole goes down, which is a very useful characteristic to have.

Certainly when Warren passes on the stock will take a dip as the nervous nellies run for the exits. But I predict it will recover pretty fast, and in a couple of years later will be back onto even nervous nellies shortlist... after all once he's dead we don't have to worry about that anymore.

In some sense it comes down to how efficient do you believe the market is. If you believe the market is efficient, then the risk of WB's death is already correctly priced into the current price, and is hardly worth considering if you are a long term holder.

I can't say I am sure the market price of BRK is close to the intrinsic value, but I do have to believe that if any business trades near its intrinsic value, BRK would be that business. I suppose this is where the faith that clifp talks about comes in. Whereas most CEOs have big incentives to inflate the market value of their company, WB seems to not be interested in that game.
 
And produce a buying opportunity?

I believe that's what they said after Peter Lynch left Fidelity Magellan. You're buying Berkshire for one reason and one reason only...you're buying it because Warren is awesome. Without Warren, you're buying the Warren minion fund. It's not like the company actually makes anything.
 
I believe that's what they said after Peter Lynch left Fidelity Magellan. You're buying Berkshire for one reason and one reason only...you're buying it because Warren is awesome. Without Warren, you're buying the Warren minion fund. It's not like the company actually makes anything.

Thank you for that wonderful chestnut of "wisdom." It shows me all the time and effort you put into fully understanding BRK (and all the other tickers you mention).
 
You're buying the Warren minion fund even if you buy today. Warren only spends a small percentage on buying new companies every year, so between now and when he dies he's unlikely to significantly change BRK through acquisitions. So if you're only interested in what he'll buy in the future don't buy BRK now. Buying BRK only gives you what he bought over the many decades of his successful career.
 
Thank you for that wonderful chestnut of "wisdom." It shows me all the time and effort you put into fully understanding BRK (and all the other tickers you mention).

Yeah, what do I know. I just keep picking stocks that go up.
I don't have the luxury of being a big enough hedge fund to sack the market when I have short plays working.
Oddly enough, you've never wowed me with any of your nuggets either.
 
Yeah, what do I know. I just keep picking stocks that go up.
I don't have the luxury of being a big enough hedge fund to sack the market when I have short plays working.
Oddly enough, you've never wowed me with any of your nuggets either.

I'll give you "nuggets." Got any lemon slices?
 
You're buying the Warren minion fund even if you buy today. Warren only spends a small percentage on buying new companies every year, so between now and when he dies he's unlikely to significantly change BRK through acquisitions. So if you're only interested in what he'll buy in the future don't buy BRK now. Buying BRK only gives you what he bought over the many decades of his successful career.

I agree..........Charlie Munger is also in his 70's, and he won't live forever either. IMHO, you buy Warren because it IS Warren. Whomever the unlucky group is to take over Berkshire will in all likelihood NOT have the same instinct as Warren has.

Guys like Carl Icahn, T. Boone Pickes,. Warren Buffett, and Peter Lynch don't come around often at all......;)
 
You're buying the Warren minion fund even if you buy today. Warren only spends a small percentage on buying new companies every year, so between now and when he dies he's unlikely to significantly change BRK through acquisitions. So if you're only interested in what he'll buy in the future don't buy BRK now. Buying BRK only gives you what he bought over the many decades of his successful career.

This may be true, but like many stocks you may be buying, it's the "perception" of value that appeals to you.
Mark my words, when Warren's gone, BRK falls drastically.
 
If you are looking to buy the "perception of value", yes BRK will probably disappoint when he kicks the bucket. But if you're looking to buy a solid stream of future income at a good price, stay and enjoy the ride.
 
If you are looking to buy the "perception of value", yes BRK will probably disappoint when he kicks the bucket. But if you're looking to buy a solid stream of future income at a good price, stay and enjoy the ride.

I'm confused by what you mean by "a solid stream of future income"?...Did they start paying a dividend I don't know about?
 
I agree..........Charlie Munger is also in his 70's, and he won't live forever either.
Uhm, FD, Charlie's birth date was 1 Jan 1924... he's 84 years old.

He made a comment last weekend about that up-and-coming youngster named Warren Buffett who might someday, with enough time & experience, live up to his potential.

Munger also commented that he's running for President so that McCain won't feel so bad about being the oldest candidate.

We sold about a third of our shares to take our ER portfolio AA down to 23%, and we sold the shares in the kid's college fund because she only has two years before she starts. But all y'alls feeling uncomfortable about owning your Berkshire shares are welcome to tell Clif & me how much you'd take for them. $4700/"B" share seems fair to me, even if today's close was $4345/share.
 
Nords,

I am taking a flyer on BRK-B. Bought one share this morning. I figure to hold on to it until one of us (Warren or me) croaks.

My first stock in many years. I am borrowing Uncle Mick's hormones today.
 
What % of BRKA and BRKB does Buffet own, and how will those be affected when those shares are liquidated by/for the Gates Foundation? Has any of that liquidation happened yet?
 
I put an order in at Vanguard (IRA) last night for 10 shares. Already had 5 bringing the allocation up to a little over 6% of sheltered funds. I plan to hold them until Nords gives the sell signal or when Warren turns 90, whichever comes first. :D
 
What % of BRKA and BRKB does Buffet own, and how will those be affected when those shares are liquidated by/for the Gates Foundation? Has any of that liquidation happened yet?
Page 42 of the annual report (http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/2007ar/2007ar.pdf) lists 1,081,024 "A" shares and 14,000,080 "B" shares outstanding at the end of 2007. (An "A" share is worth 30 "B" shares.) The report also says those are an equivalent 1,547,693 "A" shares.

Buffett's 2006 letter to the Gates foundation says that he's earmarked 10 million "B" shares for the Gates Foundation over the next 20 years, giving them up to 500,000 shares a year. (The number of donated shares actually drops each year since he gives 5% of the remaining balance. See the details at http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/donate/bmgfltr.pdf) He's also giving away a total of another 2,050,000 "B" shares to his kid's foundations and his first wife's foundation over the next 20 years in the same manner. So starting in July 2006, over the next 20 years he's giving away the equivalent of 401,667 "A" shares. All five foundations are more or less required to cash out his donations within the year, so none of the foundations will accumulate a position in Berkshire.

Buffet's SEC filing at the end of 2007 (SEC FORM 5) lists 2,564,355 "B" shares and 350,000 "A" shares, the equivalent of 435,478 "A" shares. So right now he owns 28% of the company but by the time he's nearly 96 years old he'll be down to less than 5%. Chairman/son Howard Buffett, directors, institutions, and others also have Berkshire shares which you could see summarized at places like BRK-A: Major Holders for BERKSHIRE HATH HLD A - Yahoo! Finance .

Berkshire's daily "B" share volume is rising and has already at least doubled over the last five years, which could be considered both good and bad. Volatility will be reduced and Berkshire may someday join the S&P500. But people are probably already day-trading the shares and someday an options market could start up. From the charities alone roughly an extra 600,000 "B" shares/year will hit the open market-- at least 3000 each trading day where volume is already 20,000 shares/day.

Upon further consideration of the idea hat Buffett is a one-of-a-kind with no replacement, I've decided that's hogwash. He found Lou Simpson & Ajit Jain through the typical executive-search process and he'll continue to do the same with future Berkshire execs and his CIO candidates. Buffett used to be much more reclusive & secretive but he's deliberately raised his profile over the last 10 years to attract motivated candidates. He's cherry-picking the best and I suspect that he's better at training his successors than he gets credit for. Howard Buffett is expected to assume Chairman when Buffett steps down or dies, and Howard's main job will be to preserve Berkshire's culture. It's reasonable to expect that he & Gates (also on the board) will be able to preserve the current system. But, hey, I won't complain if they start paying dividends.

We hold ~23% of our ER portfolio in Berkshire because we can handle the volatility and the single-stock risk-- I have a COLA'd pension and spouse will be getting her own in 2022. We also bought at a low in 2001-2002 and would do the same again if our allocation dropped below 18%. We have no further plans to sell unless our allocation gets above 28%, so don't depend on our signals.

Some (former) Berkshire holders have lost quite a bit of money, especially in the 1980s (when the shares dropped 50%) and again in the late 1990s. So don't buy Berkshire shares unless you're a long-term shareholder (five years or more) or you're using testosterone money. If the Buffett transition is messy then the shares could take another 50% hit in a matter of days.

Other alternatives to Berkshire include the Danaher brothers and Eddie Lampert. I fear that neither have both Buffett's reputation and his ability. (Of course I could be wrong.) If anyone is aware of another Buffett wannabe with publicly-traded shares then I'd love to hear about it, but I think that "Chainsaw Als" are much more common than Buffetts...
 
Other alternatives to Berkshire include the Danaher brothers and Eddie Lampert. I fear that neither have both Buffett's reputation and his ability. (Of course I could be wrong.) If anyone is aware of another Buffett wannabe with publicly-traded shares then I'd love to hear about it, but I think that "Chainsaw Als" are much more common than Buffetts...

I think Lampert isn't fit to tie Warren's shoes. The only guys out there that I know of that look like Berkshire are LUK. The founding partners are no spring chickens, but its not as much of a one-man show as BRK. The moves I see LUK making now tell me that they have in no way lost their edge. But I will freely admit that I haven't any idea how to value LUK.
 
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