Is the double dip coming?

Squawk Box in the morning's experts say no double dip in 2010. May have that slide down in 2011, tho. More fun times ahead, kids!

So the crash & hyperinflation that was supposed to come in 2009, and then in 2010 has again been rescheduled for 2011?

I guess eventually they might be right.
 
Misguided or not, I'm hoping all this confidence I'm hearing will keep the ball rolling.
 
So the crash & hyperinflation that was supposed to come in 2009, and then in 2010 has again been rescheduled for 2011?

I guess eventually they might be right.
That's the thing about being a permabear.

No matter how many times you're wrong about the market and the economy going into the tank, eventually you'll be right and people will think you're a genius.
 
That's the thing about being a permabear.

No matter how many times you're wrong about the market and the economy going into the tank, eventually you'll be right and people will think you're a genius.

Yeah. Sort of like a stopped clock is right twice a day.
 
I wouldn't say Roubini is completely wrong. I think he underestimates what the Fed can or will do to save an illogical economic model. As illogical as it seems, I hope they can continue to print our way to prosperity...my pension depends on it.
 
I wouldn't say Roubini is completely wrong. I think he underestimates what the Fed can or will do to save an illogical economic model. As illogical as it seems, I hope they can continue to print our way to prosperity...my pension depends on it.

I'd say he was pretty wrong, at least in gauging the recovery.

  • He said all of the major banks were bankrupt and would need to be nationalized.
  • In March 2009 he famously predicted the stock market was experiencing a sucker's rally
  • In July 2009 he said we wouldn't have growth before the end of the year, but we had 2.2% 3rd quarter growth and 5.6% 4th quarter growth.
  • In July he also said he expects U.S. growth to average 1% per-year for the "next couple of years". Which looks way too low now.
  • In July 2009 he projected the unemployment rate to be 11% by "year end".
  • As late as November 2009 he said job losses would continue at least through 2010 and was still calling for an unemployment rate of 11%.
  • In late November he was predicting declining Holiday Sales, but we ended up 1.1%
  • This month he was calling for a "U shaped recovery, at best" and a likely double dip recession.
Some of this still needs to be tested, but some of it is already known. What is known reflects an entire year of being wrong, on just about everything. It sure looks to me like he doubled down on "Doctor Doom" and went bust.
 
  • He said all of the major banks were bankrupt and would need to be nationalized.
  • In March 2009 he famously predicted the stock market was experiencing a sucker's rally
  • In July 2009 he said we wouldn't have growth before the end of the year, but we had 2.2% 3rd quarter growth and 5.6% 4th quarter growth.
  • In July he also said he expects U.S. growth to average 1% per-year for the "next couple of years". Which looks way too low now.
  • In July 2009 he projected the unemployment rate to be 11% by "year end".
  • As late as November 2009 he said job losses would continue at least through 2010 and was still calling for an unemployment rate of 11%.
  • In late November he was predicting declining Holiday Sales, but we ended up 1.1%
  • This month he was calling for a "U shaped recovery, at best" and a likely double dip recession.

Like I said, he underestimated the Fed. Would any of this stuff you posted have changed if the Fed didn't act so aggressivly? We'll never know for sure...
 
I guess there might be a case here to be a perma bull and never worry about a recession (of any kind) at all.

If I assume the Fed has unlimited capabilities and by their recent activity assume they will do anything they can to keep house prices up, the market up, big businesses in business, cars selling..... Then there is nothing ever to worry about. Probably no reason for this forum...
 
Like I said, he underestimated the Fed. Would any of this stuff you posted have changed if the Fed didn't act so aggressivly? We'll never know for sure...

It is his job to understand these things. And if one is going to position himself as some kind of oracle, it is entirely appropriate to measure him by his accuracy.
 
I'd also add that the notion that we've somehow just kicked the can down the road isn't entirely accurate. Since 2008 we've corrected a lot, but certainly not all, of the economy's imbalances. Housing prices have corrected. Mortgages have defaulted. Banks have taken billions in writedowns, and raised billions in new capital. The personal savings rate has improved by 4x. A combination of new savings and defaults has resulted in the largest decline in consumer debt since 1945. So while imbalances remain, the pessimists also tend to over look the fact the we are making actual progress in fixing some of the mess.
 
162,000 jobs (mostly private sector jobs) is a start. :)

Oh, and January & February were revised upward. So instead of losing 62,000 jobs in the first two months we netted no change in jobs. Overall, plus 224,000 jobs relative to where we thought we were in February.
 
162,000 jobs (mostly private sector jobs) is a start. :)

Oh, and January & February were revised upward. So instead of losing 62,000 jobs in the first two months we netted no change in jobs. Overall, plus 224,000 jobs relative to where we thought we were in February.

And this really good news is released on a day when the markets are closed - go figure!
 
162,000 jobs (mostly private sector jobs) is a start. :)

Oh, and January & February were revised upward. So instead of losing 62,000 jobs in the first two months we netted no change in jobs. Overall, plus 224,000 jobs relative to where we thought we were in February.

ADP says we lost 23,000 private sector jobs.

48,000 of the jobs created were census workers
40,000 considered temporary
Unemployment unchanged 9.7%
Underemployment rate rose from 16.8 to 16.9%
Discouraged workers giving up looking-308K last year, more that 1 million this year.
We're working for less and working longer hours.

I'm glad the main stream news is painting this so positive and it seems people are buying it. Confidence is one of the biggest driving forces in the economy. I hope it's enough to keep the ball rolling.
 
I'm glad the main stream news is painting this so positive and it seems people are buying it. Confidence is one of the biggest driving forces in the economy. I hope it's enough to keep the ball rolling.

I'd say you're discounting good news far more heavily than the "mainstream media" is discounting bad news. Last January we were shedding 700,000 jobs per month. Now we're adding jobs. Since last January the sequential monthly trend has been unquestionably positive, with almost every month better than the prior one.

How can you look at this chart and conclude the employment picture isn't far, far better than it was?
 

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Oil and interest rates creeping up...

Bonds are taking a beating today...

TIPS auction today, they are taking a beating right now.

Maybe buy a little:confused:

Gotta wonder if they have a plan B to keep those yields down?

Nothing like a little international turmoil to create a flight to "safety"...
 
With 10-year treasuries hitting 3.99% and likely to cross 4% soon, I think the bond market (which has been skeptical about economic recovery thus far) is now voting that the economy is strengthening and NO DOUBLE DIP.

Extra Fed meeting today - they will probably raise the discount rate again.

Audrey
 
The high oil prices!

Hard to believe that oil is above $86.5!

High oil prices actually act like a Fed rate hike - they tend to slow the economy down.

Audrey
 
At some point, sure. But what is 'high'?
What really endangers our economy is being to reliant on any critical part. Be that energy, transportation, or other resources.
Imagine the country has zero fresh water. We import 100% of it from one country.
That, in my mind would be a HUGE danger to our economy. Now, if we imported water from 30 countries, our risk would not be so bad.
(please note, this is not an analogy of our situation with oil, just a way to show risks).
At some point, high oil prices will lead to downward pressure on the economy. If the growth doesn't have enough upward pressure, downturn, here we come. The more diversified we are (pumping our own oil, using less, using alternatives) the less downward pressure.
 
Doesn't a high oil price lead an economic downturn?

The conventional wisdom of this talks itself into circles.

1) Strong economy = strong demand for oil.
2) Strong demand for oil = higher oil price
3) Higher oil price = weaker economy
4) Weaker economy = lower demand for oil
5) Lower demand for oil = lower oil price
6) Lower oil price = stronger economy?

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Demand led pricing strength is a sign of a good economy.
 
How can you look at this chart and conclude the employment picture isn't far, far better than it was?

I agree it IS far better than it was. I just don't think it's anything to cheer about. In another post I wrote we apparently need 100,000 jobs just to stay even. During the bubbles we were making 200,000 jobs or so. If we have a robust recovery bordering on a bubble we net positive 100,000 jobs a month. 84 months needed to get back were we were before we lost 8.4 million jobs.

Earlier I questioned the disparity between ADP and BLS job data. Timely article today.
David Rosenberg: Here's 7 Economic Stats You Shouldn't Believe - Yahoo! Finance
 
I agree it IS far better than it was. I just don't think it's anything to cheer about...

I am certainly cheering that we are not loosing 700,000 jobs a month anymore.
 
Ambiguous data usually leads people to the conclusion they are looking for. There’s no evidence or reason to think the US economy is going to get much better that it is right now, but there’s also none to think it’s going to get any worse. I don’t care much for John Mauldin’s writing but I do like the term he coined to describe our economy going forward – the muddle through economy.

There’s an interview with Peter Bernstein on Consuelo Mack Wealthtrack on 10/21/05 that comes to mind.
And that's dangerous. But it's very hard to make the case that returns will be, say, after inflation, more than 6% to 7%. That's the most optimistic expectation. We start from a point where we've had a very -- a huge bull market in the 1990s, only part of which has been given back. Equities are still valued at historically high prices. Interest rates, I don't have to tell you, are historically low. And so you start from there, and there you are. I think something very important to think about this, that a period of low returns, you think, well, every year maybe we'll have 4%, 5%. It doesn't work that way. Low returns result from high volatility. You have a big year, and then a bad year, and the pattern of low return periods is high volatility, not low volatility. It's a scary time.
./.
I look at it that I think the number one rule of asset allocation is the returns on capital are highest where capital is scarce. In other words, you want to be the provider of scarce capital, where nobody else will lend, you want to be the lender. And I think courtesy of partly the Federal Reserve’s generosity over the past six, seven, eight years there is no asset class starved for capital. Hedge funds, commodity funds, venture capital, private equity -- you name it -- everybody is flush with cash. I think what that says is asset returns across the board are going to be muted relative to people's expectations. In other words, low returns not only for equities but for everything. And I think what that means is it's a great time to be very broadly diversified. The opportunity cost of missing out on the asset class is extremely low because there is no "the asset class."
Seems to me that the most important thing right now is to avoid making big mistakes and expect a great deal of volatility.
 
I am certainly cheering that we are not loosing 700,000 jobs a month anymore.

When we were losing 700K a month, you should've been cheering we weren't losing 900K. :)
 
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