The Volkswagen Whee ..

[Lakewood90712]

My first position with MegaMotors in 1981 was in emissions certification and because Mega had had their hands slapped by the EPA in the recent past, we got a lecture on how we had to even avoid the appearance of doing anything underhanded. The EPA rules at the time specifically addressed defeat devices even giving examples like using a hood open sensor to change the control strategy. The cars were run with the hood open on a chassis dynamo meter during the test. In recent years, auto companies just self certify with occasional auditing by the EPA to ensure compliance.

Ford was using Rousch for emissions lab testing, and because Rousch had such a reputation for , oh, call it" creative use of the numbers " Ford got extra EPA scrutiny for quite a while .

With the clean diesel cars coming from europe, I was amazed VW was getting Nox emissions levels so low, without using the pain is the ass "Diesel exhaust fluid " additive system that some car other makers , and most large diesel trucks use.

It was too good to be true.

 

[Lakewood90712]

And there in lies the problem. Put a few of these high fliers behind bars and maybe, just maybe the culture will change. The company paying a fine is a joke.

A few guys from Freddy Mac went to the slammer, pre 2008 housing meltdown. That was the last I have seen of high level folks getting time in the big house.

 

[NW-Bound]

Interesting.... has anyone found what would change in the car performance if they ran the cheat all the time. I would assume it would then be compliant at least with emissions.

I would assume that all cars these days modify settings based on conditions. Older cars did this more mechanically. But adjusting for the test does sound like a cheat. I just wonder if they ran the cheat all the time, what do they give up? mileage? performance? It would be interesting to know... and this could be a very easy fix... just software. But what was so important to use this cheat?

From a Web source:

Volkswagen hasn't explained exactly why it cheated, but outside analysts have a good guess. The NOx emission controls likely degraded the cars' performance when they were switched on — the engines ran hotter, wore out more quickly, and got poorer mileage. Some experts have suggested that the emission controls may have affected the cars' torque and acceleration, making them less fun to drive. (Indeed, some individual car owners have been known to disable their cars' emission controls to boost performance, though this is against the law.)​

In the world of drivers obsessed with horsepower performance, this cheat gives VW an advantage over its competition.

By the way, most of these cars in circulation are in Europe, not the US.

See: Volkswagen's appalling clean diesel scandal, explained - Vox.

 

[Totoro]

A few guys from Freddy Mac went to the slammer, pre 2008 housing meltdown. That was the last I have seen of high level folks getting time in the big house.

It does happen, rarely:

Former OtisMed CEO sentenced to two years in prison for shipping device after FDA rejected it - FierceMedicalDevices

Former peanut company CEO sentenced to 28 years for salmonella outbreak | Reuters

https://www.fbi.gov/atlanta/press-r...federal-prison-for-running-forex-ponzi-scheme

San Jose: Jerry Wang, CEO of Herguan University, sentenced to prison - San Jose Mercury News

Not big shot companies, still. In Russia you have some billionaires getting jail time too every so often and in China they get death sentences, but those are very different stories from what you meant.

 

[aja8888]

If you want to follow the action on the TDI Club forums, here it is:

Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs trigger massive recall, stop sale - TDIClub Forums

 

[Midpack]

GM’s scandal has cost the company more than $2 billion, including a $900 million fine the automaker agreed to pay to the U.S. government last week as part of a criminal settlement.

Toyota paid a $1.2 billion fine last year in its own criminal settlement with U.S. prosecutors.

But Volkswagen said Tuesday that it would set aside 6.5 billion euros ($7.3 billion) to account for the costs associated with its emissions scandal, which was exposed Friday by the Environmental Protection Agency. The EPA has the authority to fine Volkswagen up to $18 billion for violating emissions standards on some 482,000 diesel cars in the U.S.

The company admitted that the deceptive software may be installed on 11 million vehicles worldwide and has apologized and ordered an external investigation. The software causes vehicles to emit harmful pollutants at rates of up to 40 times acceptable standards, except when regulators are testing the cars.

From USA Today. They noted GM and Toyota didn't set out to deceive anyone - they failed to catch mistakes and then allegedly tried to hide them. Whereas VW set out to deceive...ouch.

 

[Mo Money]

Bummer. I am one of the affected owners. And I am piss*d. Some posters above mentioned that people in my shoes may be slow to get their vehicles "fixed." But with state inspection and periodic maintenance, there's unlikely to be an easy way to avoid the "fix."

Class actions will yield some half-as*ed settlement where I'll get some piddling compensation for the likely substantial reduced mileage I'll suffer when the "fix" occurs.

This was a crime. And every country out there that's not third world will be prosecuting and suing VW. Millions of vehicles are likely involved. Europe will be a great white shark compared to US regulators....

 

[samclem]

VW's marketing has heavily targeted non-price-sensitive folks who want a fun to drive car and who want to be (or seen to be) environmentally conscious. Any de-tuning to meet the emissions requirement is going to hurt the "fun to drive" factor for these diesels, and the company's green credibility is now as thoroughly shot as possible. So years of building up a particular brand identity is on the scrap heap--that's hard to put a price on. Heads will (and should) roll, and it won't be long.

I read a story in the WSJ a few weeks ago about a government program that pays whistleblowers. Some folks get paid a lot of money, but the path is a difficult one (specialized lawyers and procedures, etc). An improved program like that would seem to be a good way to catch this sort of thing. Scores of people in VW must have known about this.

 

[papadad111]

I heard that fiat Chrysler may have similar issues.

Farfegnugen !!! like an investor.

Who has clean diesel ?
Who stands to benefit from this recall?

Any China impact ( being worlds largest car market) ?

I wouldn't touch VW as i don't know what i don't know as far as total liability yet.

But at some point, value will emerge

Those owning major international funds likely own a percent or two of VW as part of their ETF or MF

 

[samclem]

Any China impact ( being worlds largest car market) ?

Almost zero. Diesel cars aren't popular in China at all.

 

[Marc]

Why is no one blaming unachievable (at least with reasonable cost and performance) standards set by EPA and California? Why do we pay more for diesel than gasoline; the opposite of Europe? Why can we always find a good turbo diesel in Europe that gets great gas mileage while at the same time those cars aren't sold in USA?

I am not saying VW is not without the greatest blame; but the government needs to share the blame.

Marc

 

[NW-Bound]

Yes, the regulation agencies may demand impossible high standards, but if car makers are honest and say that they cannot deliver, then the populace will just have to drive smaller cars or walk. Or the car drivers can apply pressure for the government to relax the requirements.

Some car makers cheat so that they can sell while the competition cannot, and therefore gain market share. They try to use the stringent requirements to their advantage in a deceitful way. And the government and people will say that the honest car makers are "behind the curve" and do not have "advanced technology".

By the way, most of these diesel cars are sold and used in Europe, where there's a demand for high MPG due to the fuel cost as you noted. The impact in the US caused by VW is not that great.

 

[aja8888]

Why can we always find a good turbo diesel in Europe that gets great gas mileage while at the same time those cars aren't sold in USA?


Marc

Those cars are sold in the USA. I have one now and have had several of them in the past. They are the ones (2009 - 2015) that VW is being scrutinized about. They same cars (except for a few models) that are running around Europe and other places.

BMW, Mercedes and Audi sell diesels in the USA. VW has been selling diesels here since about 1981..or so.

Seat and Skoda are owned by VW and those cars are running the same 2.0 L diesel engine as the VW's in Europe. WV also runs a 1.6 L diesel in the Polo in other countries (and maybe a 1.4 L engine). There are other diesels in other countries....Datsun, Hyundai, Volvo, Subaru to name a few.

VW, as the current largest car manufacturer in the world, is going to be screwed over this deal.

 

[Texas Proud]

Why is no one blaming unachievable (at least with reasonable cost and performance) standards set by EPA and California? Why do we pay more for diesel than gasoline; the opposite of Europe? Why can we always find a good turbo diesel in Europe that gets great gas mileage while at the same time those cars aren't sold in USA?

I am not saying VW is not without the greatest blame; but the government needs to share the blame.

Marc

Sorry.... but the gvmt does not share the blame for outright fraud....

If a car company cannot meet the requirements, then they should get out of the market... simple...

 

[Midpack]

This was a crime. And every country out there that's not third world will be prosecuting and suing VW. Millions of vehicles are likely involved. Europe will be a great white shark compared to US regulators....

11 million according to VW, noted above...

 

[ejman]

Why is no one blaming unachievable (at least with reasonable cost and performance) standards set by EPA and California? Why do we pay more for diesel than gasoline; the opposite of Europe? Why can we always find a good turbo diesel in Europe that gets great gas mileage while at the same time those cars aren't sold in USA?

I am not saying VW is not without the greatest blame; but the government needs to share the blame.

Marc

I think you are right about this government blame business. Think how much cheaper food would be if food producers didn't have to follow FDA regulations. All the money we as consumers could save!

 

[harley]

I don't have any articles to back me up, but I remember over the last decade or so VW was making a lot of noise about becoming the largest car company in the world. And they did it, just recently. I suspect this cheat was a part of that drive.

We've got a VW Beetle TDI that we love. It's a 2002, so it's not part of this problem. We've been spending a lot of time researching it's eventual replacement, and were pretty firmly in the VW TDI camp again. We loved the combination of mpg, performance, and environmental friendliness. After this betrayal we won't be looking at VW again, probably for at least a decade. Even if they stay in business after the fallout, their loyal customer base is gone.

We're now leaning toward the Mazda 3. Everybody we know that has one says they get much higher mileage than what's on the sticker. If anybody knows anything bad about them I'd be interested.

 

[Marc]

I think you are right about this government blame business. Think how much cheaper food would be if food producers didn't have to follow FDA regulations. All the money we as consumers could save!

Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. No one is saying that these cars are unfit to drive and every owner has been able to calculate his own effective gas mileage. What this is about is 40x more pollution. I have wanted to get a diesel here ever since I lived in Japan and Belgium where they were common. I really liked the Audi A2 hatch in Europe but it was never offered here. I think VW might disappear (ala Enron and Arthur Andersen) due to their extreme fraud; however, I think it also might be end of diesel passenger cars in USA, too.

We're now leaning toward the Mazda 3. Everybody we know that has one says they get much higher mileage than what's on the sticker. If anybody knows anything bad about them I'd be interested.

I have a Mazda CX-7 (since replaced in lineup by CX-5) that has same engine as Mazda 3. I love my Mazada, and I really love the Mazda 3 too, just a little small for hauling stuff around.

Marc

 

[beanctr88]

In summer 2014 I was down to buying the diesel Passat or a Mazda 6. So glad now that I bought the Mazda. The Passat was fun to drive, but my co-workers who are mechanics talked me out of the purchase as they convinced me that German vehicles are too expensive to maintain. I need to thank them. Those cars are now unsellable at any reasonable price.

 

[Marc]

Those cars are now unsellable at any reasonable price.

I think the first lawsuits, and settlements, will be for "diminished value," the same reasoning as settlements for accidents. Of course, that is all pre-supposing that the government lets the cars stay on the road with the amount of emissions they are actually emitting.

 

[ExFlyBoy5]

I have a good friend that owns an auto shop that specializes in only VW and Audi cars. When I sent him the original notice of violation on Friday, he was up in arms that it was because of onerous government regulations. Since the weekend has passed, he's now singing another tune. He feels quite violated by the folks at VW.

In all honesty, I hope this sinks them for good. It should send a good message to other corporations who are contemplating fraud on such a grand scale.

Sent from my mobile device so please excuse grammatical errors.

 

[travelover]

............ It should send a good message to other corporations who are contemplating fraud on such a grand scale..............

Naw, the personality traits needed to get to be a top exec dictate that you feel that you are the smartest guy in the room and such recklessness will be repeated ad infinitum.

 

[aja8888]

I think VW might disappear (ala Enron and Arthur Andersen) due to their extreme fraud; however, I think it also might be end of diesel passenger cars in USA, too.

I seriously doubt VW will disappear as they make a lot of non-diesel cars and trucks. Also, the diesel problem is limited to certain models and years. It may be the end of diesel passenger cars in the U.S. after the next round of emissions tightening for NOx. Watch what's in store for gasoline engines here in a few years as EPA will be focusing on particulate emissions for those engines. You will see NOx traps, filters, possibly DEF for NOx reduction making the gassers as complicated as the diesels for emission control.

I think the first lawsuits, and settlements, will be for "diminished value," the same reasoning as settlements for accidents. Of course, that is all pre-supposing that the government lets the cars stay on the road with the amount of emissions they are actually emitting.

EPA has already stated publicly the subject cars are OK to stay on the road.

VW will supply a "fix" that will most likely work for the cars that have Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) emissions control (2014 - 2015 Passats) which would be increasing the DEF treatment cycle. The older cars are not using SCR and there may not be an easy fix for those cars. Those may be bought back by VW and the owner's compensated. This is the thinking here in the U.S. (TDI Club members). This is speculation right now.

 

[Lakewood90712]

If prices for these used VW diesels are really headed to the cellar , I will be looking to pick one up, being the cheap ass I am. I have no doubt VW will come up with a compliance / retrofit strategy.

 

[aja8888]

If prices for these used VW diesels are really headed to the cellar , I will be looking to pick one up, being the cheap ass I am. I have no doubt VW will come up with a compliance / retrofit strategy.

Strangely enough, when VW had trouble meeting Tier II Bin 5 emission standards in 2007 - 2008 and did not sell a TDI those years, the price of older TDI's went up, not down.

There may be panic sellers of the 2009 - 2015 TDI's, but the owners that don't get them re-flashed with the coming "fix" (that will effectively de-tune the performance), will probably see their cars value stay high.

I'm keeping my 2014 Passat that gets almost 50 MPG on the highway and 42+ around town.