Thoughts on TESLA

[gerntz]

, I just see absolutely no reason the rest of us should be financing someone else's car purchase, especially an upscale car. It really does boil my blood.

Regardless, enjoy your (our?) new purchase!

-ERD50

Agree. The concept is evil.

 

[clifp]

The "enabling technology" will be smart metering. A plug-in hybrid is a superbly flexible consumer of electricity, and a way to offload the problem of storing electricity to consumers in a very advantageous way (payback for the batteries is quick). If I can plug in at home or in town and just get electricity when there's a true surplus of wind or solar electricity on the grid (or produced at my home), then it really is cleaner than an ICE. But if that doesn't happen and the available electricity at home is expensive or dirty for a night or a week, then my car won't buy any and I'll use gasoline (or diesel, or whatever the ICE is set up to burn).

I can understand objections to EVs. But I have to say the appeal of Hybrids is lost to me. They strike me as the toaster oven of the car universe.

You are lugging around and having to maintain all the crap associated with ICE cars radiators, fuel injection systems, transmissions and plus an engine. In order to avoid having to spend a few extra hours charging your car for long distance trips. Even less of a big deal with Tesla supercharging networks.

Or you are spending thousands of dollars and lugging around a heavy battery and a motor, to boost your MPG from 30 to 50 MPG. For the average person who drives 12,000 miles a year, that is a difference between 400 gallons a year vs 240 at $4/gallon a year that's only $640 a year.

I have driven two hybrids, a Prius which I hated, and Ford C-Max which was ok.

I do have toaster oven, but if I want toast, I use a toaster, and if I want to bake something I use my oven. My toaster oven mostly just takes up counter space.

 

[ERD50]

No, I didn't say the car battery would be used as you've described. Every bit of energy stored in the car battery would eventually be used to turn the wheels of the car--just as designed. The car is a flexible >consumer< of electricity: Buy electricity if it makes sense, don't buy it when it doesn't make sense ($$ or environmentally--hopefully that choice is left to the consumer). Having the ICE on board allows you to be a more discerning consumer.

Sorry, I see now that I read the storage/return part into it, as that is usually part of what people are talking about when they go there.

Yes, I think I mentioned way back that an app could be really smart - like have a calendar and say that on Mon-Fri you must have at least 80% charge by 6AM, and Sat/Sun would accept 60% charge by 8AM. But you will accept a full 100% if rates are below $X.xx/kWh. If you ever need 100% charge by a certain time, there would be an easy way to update it for that event.

The utility could get really smart about it if they know how long it takes to charge your car and the current state. If the reports were for high winds from 1AM to 3AM, they could schedule as much charge as possible for those hours and level load the rest to make sure everyone gets their charge by the time they specify.

I would not want to code that, but it probably isn't that hard for a real programming team.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50
Yes, but if future hybrids get 50 mpg, that's ...

You do like to change the subject, don't you?

I wasn't talking about future hybrids; I was talking about my car.

Didn't mean to change the subject, I was just tying that back to other comments about the future of EVs. A reminder that hybrids are not standing still.

-ERD50

 

[NW-Bound]

Friend took his T to MN last winter. Couldn't get it to start at -20. Even took a trickle battery 1hr to get the T's batteries to the point they would start. Distance on a charge greatly reduced.

So when they ban ICE's in 20 years, suppose people in MN won't have drivable cars in winter.

Lithium batteries cannot be charged below freezing; irreversible damage will occur, and the batteries that are cold-charged may later erupt in flame. Hence, battery packs for consumer products all have electronics with a temperature sensor to block the charging when appropriate. Some special lithium batteries can be charged at 14F, and that's it.

However, I read that discharging is OK. And a battery in use tends to heat itself up.

About no ICE in 20 years, people in MN and cold climate will be in a lot more hurt than having no cars in the winter. What do they use right now for heating? Without burning something (no carbon, remember?), what will they use for heating? Solar power on cloudy and snowy days?

 

[ERD50]

I really like the idea of never having to visit a gas station again. The car has a 310 mile range and we very rarely take long distance trips, so I don’t ever see a need to charge the car away from home.

And, the car has no required service other than tire rotation and changing the brake fluid every 2 years. So much fewer trips to the service center than my Lexus requires. Every time I do a routine 5,000 mile maintenance on the Lexus I spend at least $300, and once it get to around 15,000 it seems to run closer to $1,000. Over many years that really begins to add up compared to the Tesla.

Our ICE maintenance costs are no where near that. Why are yours so high? Looking back at our 2011 Honda CRV:

Oil/filter changes once a year which is about $60.

A battery at $70 year 4 (but maybe an EV accessory battery would need replacement? I don't know). Probably need one by next year.

Had the brakes flushed once, ~ $112. Spec is every 3 years (not 2), so cost is less than a Tesla? We are due, but I expect we need brakes soon, so will just do it then.

I do air filter myself, only every few years, a 5 minute 'job' (no tools needed) and filter is ~ $10.

So seven years, and for non-EV stuff we are talking average of less than $80 a year. . And maybe another ~ $60/year if I needed a brake job, and amortize that. Roughly $140/year, add another $$10 to include next battery replacement.

Now, we only do ~ 6,000 miles a year on that car, but these would not be much higher with higher mileage - the oil changes are done at one year but the 'minder' still says OK, so we could probably get 10,000 miles on that oil change if it was within a year. Would probably have had the brakes done once at higher mileage, but that's about it.

How does that compare to Tesla's recc service. I bet they are a lot higher, as a local garage won't handle some of that? And I've seen they recc battery coolant replacement at year 4. My (radiator) coolant is on the minder, with no mileage listed in the manual, and it has not asked for it yet. My trans fluid is lifetime if I don't tow (I don't).

Tire rotations, cabin filter, wipers, etc are common to EV, so no change there.

I'll bet that Tesla's maintenance costs are higher (probably by a lot) than mine, because little is tied to the ICE, and you have to go to Telsa for this, which I bet it far higher than Matt (who I know and can actually trust) at my local shop.

I can understand objections to EVs. But I have to say the appeal of Hybrids is lost to me. They strike me as the toaster oven of the car universe.

You are lugging around and having to maintain all the crap associated with ICE cars radiators, fuel injection systems, transmissions and plus an engine. In order to avoid having to spend a few extra hours charging your car for long distance trips. Even less of a big deal with Tesla supercharging networks.

Or you are spending thousands of dollars and lugging around a heavy battery and a motor, to boost your MPG from 30 to 50 MPG. For the average person who drives 12,000 miles a year, that is a difference between 400 gallons a year vs 240 at $4/gallon a year that's only $640 a year.

I have driven two hybrids, a Prius which I hated, and Ford C-Max which was ok.

I do have toaster oven, but if I want toast, I use a toaster, and if I want to bake something I use my oven. My toaster oven mostly just takes up counter space.

But the truth is (see above), very few of us spend much money at all maintaining the ICE/trans. They've come a long way baby.

And yes, I don't drive enough miles per year per vehicle to justify a hybrid (or an EV for that matter). But going from 30mpg to 50 mpg means a big reduction in emissions (and car mfgs need to meet CAFE & EPA standards), w/o range anxiety or needing access to a charger. Don;t forget, lots of people live in apartments or have street parking. Chargers can't be taken for granted for everyone - but they can still drive a hybrid

-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

I can understand objections to EVs. But I have to say the appeal of Hybrids is lost to me. They strike me as the toaster oven of the car universe.

You are lugging around and having to maintain all the crap associated with ICE cars radiators, fuel injection systems, transmissions and plus an engine. In order to avoid having to spend a few extra hours charging your car for long distance trips. Even less of a big deal with Tesla supercharging networks.

Or you are spending thousands of dollars and lugging around a heavy battery and a motor, to boost your MPG from 30 to 50 MPG. For the average person who drives 12,000 miles a year, that is a difference between 400 gallons a year vs 240 at $4/gallon a year that's only $640 a year.

I have driven two hybrids, a Prius which I hated, and Ford C-Max which was ok.

I do have toaster oven, but if I want toast, I use a toaster, and if I want to bake something I use my oven. My toaster oven mostly just takes up counter space.

I’m sorry your toaster oven isn’t living up to expectations. Perhaps it’s time to get a better one, or just sell it if you don’t need it. I hear the new Brevils are excellent.

My hybrid seems pretty good to me. With a 600 mile driving range I can stop for gas once a day. I save those ‘few extra hours’ every day of my trip. And the $640 allows me 10 upgrades of my hotel room from the Crabgrass Inn to one with cleaner rooms and a hot breakfast in the morning.

Someday I may purchase a 100% EV. Until then The hybrid meets my needs better than a traditional ICE car or a pure EV.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Got passed by a lady in a red Tesla yesterday, like Ricky Bobby said" I have to admit, I got a little chubby". She as behind me on the freeway, and we both moved over at the same to pass a slower truck. She jumped over a second lane and flew past me. What a great looking car.

I drive nice and slow, always have. But the acceleration on my Model 3 is stunning. I've accelerated out of situations several times. I recently drove friend's Lexus and a BMW (I've owned 3). Once you get accustomed to the acceleration of Tesla, driving the ICE's I drove was quite a disappointment.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

OK. That's not too bad.

I do wonder about the future when EVs are mandated. There is going to be real pain for a lot of people in older homes with substandard electrical services. Heck, I had a 200 amp service, but needed a new panel when I got upgraded A/C. There just wasn't any breaker room left. And of course, some installations will be difficult and require trenching outside, etc.

And what about all the apartments?

Interesting times ahead.

While home charging is obviously a simple way to charge, charging stations are going up all over the U.S. The UK is getting chargers in 2500 Tesco's.

Tesla is putting chargers in Target in the U.S.

Walmart is getting the Volkswagen chargers, which can charge even faster than Tesla's.

My point is that there will be chargers installed at so many locations, lack of charging solutions won't be a problem.

There are 3 places I can charge for free within a mile from my house and I have never even stopped to use them.

 

[NW-Bound]

Aren't these still just Level 2 chargers? It would take 7 to 9 hours to charge if the battery is depleted (each hour of charging adds 25 miles of range).

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

With GM, Ford and Fiat all saying adios to the sedan for the most part in the near future, have to wonder if Tesla is out of touch with consumer demands with focus on 3 and X.

My Tesla X is an SUV.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Aren't these still just Level 2 chargers? It would take 7 to 9 hours to charge if the battery is depleted (each hour of charging adds 25 miles of range).

I hear your point, but what people do is similar to how people charge their phones. Do you wait until you are at 0% charge on your phone to plug it in?

I drove from Pasadena to Whittier today. About 25 miles. I stopped in Downey. Plugged in at a Supercharger. Plugged in at 55% I believe it was. Walked my Yorkshire terriers. Got rid of my junk email on my phone. Drove off at 81%. Took 20 minutes perhaps. Completely free charging.

There have been posts from others who portray charging an EV as a huge ordeal or an unrealistic burden. Those of us with an EV realize how simple it is.

 

[NW-Bound]

It depends on the usage of the car, the same as with the cell phone.

I once worked at a job where I had to commute 100 mi round trip each day. A Tesla would work well for me, as I imagine I would recharge every night at home. A LEAF would not work.

But I would not use an EV for a cross-country drive, as I like to take the back roads, let alone the recent trek through Alaska and the Yukon (it will be a long time before they can make an affordable electric motorhome anyway).

With the cell phone, I carry a battery booster when I travel. It's too tough to find a place to plug in during the day when visiting foreign cities. The battery booster has several times the capacity of the cell phone battery, so that works well. EV cars do not have this convenience, although I have seen one guy tow a trailer carrying an extra battery pack behind his EV to achieve a 2x range.

 

[JoeWras]

While home charging is obviously a simple way to charge, charging stations are going up all over the U.S. The UK is getting chargers in 2500 Tesco's.

Tesla is putting chargers in Target in the U.S.

Walmart is getting the Volkswagen chargers, which can charge even faster than Tesla's.

My point is that there will be chargers installed at so many locations, lack of charging solutions won't be a problem.

There are 3 places I can charge for free within a mile from my house and I have never even stopped to use them.

But you realize that it won't be a nitch if *every* vehicle needs a charger. Right now, it is easy for you because you are such a small minority. Walmart, or in our case our park system, throws up 2 chargers to show support for EV. They will need 2000 very soon if ICE is gone by 2040. A hell of a lot of infrastructure has to go up.

Breaking news: The UN secretary general just pleaded for zero emissions by 2050. Better start working on that infrastructure now. I'm serious, this is going to be a lot of work.

 

[bobandsherry]

My Tesla X is an SUV.

My bad, meant to say 3 and S.

 

[Totoro]

They will need 2000 very soon if ICE is gone by 2040. A hell of a lot of infrastructure has to go up.

Although I too have no crystal ball, I very much doubt we need anything near that.

Much will depend as well on e.g. the availability of self-driving cars, and the amount of cars owned by people that don't have their own charging infrastructure at home.

 

[JoeWras]

Although I too have no crystal ball, I very much doubt we need anything near that.

Much will depend as well on e.g. the availability of self-driving cars, and the amount of cars owned by people that don't have their own charging infrastructure at home.

Then all apartment complexes will have to install these. They have to go somewhere. Will all homes be easy to retrofit the station?

 

[ncbill]

I can understand objections to EVs. But I have to say the appeal of Hybrids is lost to me. They strike me as the toaster oven of the car universe.

You are lugging around and having to maintain all the crap associated with ICE cars radiators, fuel injection systems, transmissions and plus an engine. In order to avoid having to spend a few extra hours charging your car for long distance trips. Even less of a big deal with Tesla supercharging networks.

Or you are spending thousands of dollars and lugging around a heavy battery and a motor, to boost your MPG from 30 to 50 MPG. For the average person who drives 12,000 miles a year, that is a difference between 400 gallons a year vs 240 at $4/gallon a year that's only $640 a year.

I have driven two hybrids, a Prius which I hated, and Ford C-Max which was ok.

I do have toaster oven, but if I want toast, I use a toaster, and if I want to bake something I use my oven. My toaster oven mostly just takes up counter space.

Plug-in hybrids (your first example) really have indeed proven not worth it...people are either buying pure EVs (Tesla) or 'regular' (Prius) hybrids.

However, the latter do save you money...e.g. on the 2019 RAV4 the hybrid option costs as little as $800 extra:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme...-it-will-hit-500000-sales-per-year-in-no-time

I won't be buying a pure EV anytime soon, but would absolutely choose the hybrid on the RAV4 or any other new vehicle I bought.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

But you realize that it won't be a nitch if *every* vehicle needs a charger. Right now, it is easy for you because you are such a small minority. Walmart, or in our case our park system, throws up 2 chargers to show support for EV. They will need 2000 very soon if ICE is gone by 2040. A hell of a lot of infrastructure has to go up.

Breaking news: The UN secretary general just pleaded for zero emissions by 2050. Better start working on that infrastructure now. I'm serious, this is going to be a lot of work.

Regarding the breaking news, is everyone aware that the President of France added carbon taxes to gasoline to " discourage the use of ICE's and promote EV's"? Yes they are rioting in the streets over there but I have read its not about the carbon taxes that there are other issues. I mention this to illustrate that the cut off might be 2040 for sales of ICE vehicles ( all ICE's are banned in 2050 from being on the roads btw) but the governments will be turning the screws on those that stick with the ICE's for now. The President said the gasoline taxes are permanent just yesterday.

If France is hitting ICE owners in the pocketbook (7 dollar a gallon gas, I read the taxes were 60%), you know it will be the U.S. "soon".

Please don't respond with anything that causes Porky to visit.

 

[mpeirce]

Tesla is putting chargers in Target in the U.S.

Explain to me how this is useful?

I stop at Target in my EV. I plug in for the 15 minutes it takes to buy a few items. I leave with, what, an extra 5 miles of range?

Also, will most of the parking spaces at Target have a charger?

 

[Chuckanut]

If France is hitting ICE owners in the pocketbook (7 dollar a gallon gas, I read the taxes were 60%), you know it will be the U.S. "soon".

Please don't respond with anything that causes Porky to visit.

My understanding is that those who object to the new taxes are the people who live in rural France where public transportation is not that great, and they have to drive longer distances to conduct their daily business. These taxes hit the less affluent rural areas harder than they hit people in big cities like Paris. That's what I have read.

In any event, I think we are each able to judge on our own what type of vehicle meets our individual needs.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Explain to me how this is useful?

I stop at Target in my EV. I plug in for the 15 minutes it takes to buy a few items. I leave with, what, an extra 5 miles of range?

Also, will most of the parking spaces at Target have a charger?

It will be useful to Ready when her family goes to Target. The chargers at Target will only help Tesla owners.

In the example you offer, she could charge from 50% up to 70% in 15 minutes. Thats my rough estimate. The 20% increase is worth 62 miles in the car she is getting tomorrow which is the same as mine. I take 15 minutes or less in Target like you do. Others will spend a lot more time.

Tesla announced 100 Targets will get superchargers.

Anyone interested in where the Tesla chargers are or will be placed ( the Target ones are not on the map yet) or the Volkswagen chargers locations, can google it and see your options.

As for your last question, there are Tesla superchargers with 50 parking spots, though they are rare. Most are 8-12. I've been using them since March, people rotate in and out rather quickly. The Target five blocks from my house has a few hundred parking spots, so I know all parking available won't have chargers.

 

[NW-Bound]

It will be useful to Ready when her family goes to Target. The chargers at Target will only help Tesla owners.

In the example you offer, she could charge from 50% up to 70% in 15 minutes. Thats my rough estimate. The 20% increase is worth 62 miles in the car she is getting tomorrow which is the same as mine. I take 15 minutes or less in Target like you do. Others will spend a lot more time.

Tesla announced 100 Targets will get superchargers...

The 62 miles in 15 minutes is what one gets from a supercharger, not a Level 2 public charger. Indeed, some Target stores will have Tesla superchargers.

The more common Level 2 chargers will deliver only about 5 miles in 15 minutes.

It's too bad that the EV industry has not come up with a standard for supercharging. I guess the difficulty comes from the fact that the supercharger provides a high-voltage and large DC current directly to the battery, and bypasses the AC-to-DC converter inside the EV, and batteries in EVs are all of proprietary designs and of different voltages.

 

[samclem]

I stop at Target in my EV. I plug in for the 15 minutes it takes to buy a few items. I leave with, what, an extra 5 miles of range?

It's the fun of going new places. ("The charger's at Target, so I'll go there, though if I'd gone to Meijer I could have gotten everything on my list in one trip and paid less").



It's the lack of worry. ("Will that SOB with the red Model 3 be Bogarting the sole charger in front of the bookstore gain?")


It's the community spirit. ("I nod to my eco pals as we slip around the frozen charger area for our daily top-up charge. Sure, my hands get cold, but I need the juice! Cold weather kills our range, and if there's another pileup on the expressway, I'll be happy I have this Jon-E handwarmer. ")


It's the convenience. (" I do a dozen Level Two 15-minute top-offs and I can skip the 5 minute stop at the gas station I used to do once per week.")

 

[NW-Bound]

But you realize that it won't be a nitch if *every* vehicle needs a charger. Right now, it is easy for you because you are such a small minority. Walmart, or in our case our park system, throws up 2 chargers to show support for EV. They will need 2000 very soon if ICE is gone by 2040. A hell of a lot of infrastructure has to go up.

Breaking news: The UN secretary general just pleaded for zero emissions by 2050. Better start working on that infrastructure now. I'm serious, this is going to be a lot of work.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Meanwhile, Musk said that Tesla charging stations will eventually be solar-powered.

Sure, why not? But look at the drawing below. Can you see what's wrong?