Capitalism A Love Story

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I love Michael Moore too. He is what I call a true patriot.
 
I was interested to see that Elizabeth Warren is on the Congressional Oversight Panel (1:31). She's seems smart, and gives great interviews.
 
I have say I don't see how anybody can love either Michael Moore or his right wing equivalent Anne Coulter. They are both clever, and sometimes funny, but at the end of the day they are both highly skilled propagandists.

Propagandist is just a nice way of saying liar, but I guess some people loved [FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Geneva, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Leni Rieenstahl[/SIZE][/FONT] :confused:
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Lying? How? He shows you the movies,he shows you the interviews. Just like I said you either hate him or love him. Have you seen any of his movies? I don't know about Anne
Coulter. I think She's on Fox and I don't watch Fox.
 
mountaintosea said:
Lying? How? He shows you the movies,he shows you the interviews. Just like I said you either hate him or love him. Have you seen any of his movies? I don't know about Anne
Coulter. I think She's on Fox and I don't watch Fox.
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I have seen all of Michael Moore's films starting with Roger and Me, except his latest Sicko. I have also taken the time to double check the accuracy of his films. There are numerous website that have analyzed his claims. Admittedly many of the website are from right wing organizations, but they also include reports from Dr. Sanjay Gupta (who works for CNN, and under consideration of being Obama's Surgeon General so clearly no Republican) on Sicko. There are also films from liberal films makers taking Mr. Moore to task for his distortions e.g Bowling for Columbine.

I highly suggest you google Michael Moore/film name fact checks and read some of the sites.

The one thing Mr. Moore doesn't do is show you the interview. Instead he show snippets of the interview (in some case conducted months apart) and edits 15 to 30 second clips so they appear as one long interview. As I say he is very clever.

A classic Moore technique is to ask a couple of friendly questions.
When did you last give up smoking?
I have been trying stop for years but I finally did it last month,, it was painful.
Then hit them with a Zinger
When did you stop beating your wife?
That's outrageous I have never beat my wife, she hits me I've been slapped so hard that there are bruises
Then combine the answers into one segment.
When did you stop beating your wife?
I have been trying stop for years but I finally did it last month, I've [-]been[/-] slapped so hard that there are bruises, it was painful.
 
Well said clifp. MM is a smart guy who has found a customer base and knows how to keep pleasing them. Sometimes I agree with his point of view on a subject. But I never agree with the tactics he uses to make his points.........
 
clifp said:
I have say I don't see how anybody can love either Michael Moore or his right wing equivalent Anne Coulter. They are both clever, and sometimes funny, but at the end of the day they are both highly skilled propagandists.
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Thanks for saving me some typing clifp. ;)

For me, the shame of it is that (as you say) MM is very clever and ingenious. If he would put that talent to work to present an issue w/o the bias, he could be doing a real service.

I'd guess that anyone who claims to "love" his work already had their mind made up on the issue anyway.

If MM is so anti-capitalist, why doesn't he start a commune somewhere? They could all just share in the bounty of each others efforts. Without the "drag" of capitalist profits, there would be so much more (no pun intended) to go around. I'm sure someone in this commune could produce video cameras, and computers, and everything else he needs to enjoy cinematic creativity. Heck, without that dang profit, they could produce cameras and computers far better than those capitalist pigs!

Saw most of BFC when the kids had it checked out of the library, so someone help me out here - does Micheal Moore charge admission to his movies? Just wondering :whistle:

-ERD50
 
Sorry I don't watch CNN. I don't care what the "left" has to say about him. (Whoever they are) Of course his films have a point of view. Of course he edits. Every film, documentary etc. is edited. And of course I knew that was going to be your argument. He starts discussions where there is none. Sicko was a prime example of that. Who was talking about health care before his film? As a retiree I'm real focused on that issue. I'm concerned that the Dems are going to cave once again. If you don't think health care is an issue go to the health section of this board.

He gets a lot of heat and makes unpopular statements. He has a stage and he uses it. Good for him! I didn't see Roger and Me. But apparently that is the movie that really started his film career.

Now he has a new film out. Great! I find his films entertaining for the most part. They are controversial and again everybody will probably start their tongues wagging!
You don't like him, don't go see him. You don't like the way he edits because he "lies"? Then don't go see it. I posted the trailer because I was thrilled he has another film coming out. I have emailed it to people who I thought would be thrilled also (and they are). There are some people on this board who will be thrilled. OF COURSE HE HAS A CUSTOMER BASE! That's the nature of being famous! You make it sound like his films are unworthy because he has a customer base!!! How could one be popular or famous without a customer base? Like I said I'm thrilled.:clap:
 
I like what I've seen of Micheal Moore, although I haven't seen a lot by him. I have watched "Sicko" a few times....2 or 3 times I missed a few various minutes due to phone calls or other minor distractions, however I did see the whole thing in it's entirety once!

I've found what I have seen of his works to be quite thought provoking. If the new one comes to the local theater, I'll most likely go see it. If it doesn't, I'll catch it on the tube sometime down the road.
 
mountaintosea said:
You make it sound like his films are unworthy because he has a customer base!!!
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No, his films are "unworthy" because he uses distortions to make invalid points that are accepted by many as "truth". That is worse than unworthy, that is deceitful, and that deceit can be harmful if it leads to actions based on false premise. "Unworthy" would just be boring or useless, not harmful.

Further, it actually undermines his points for critical viewers. If I see someone using false logic to make their point, I tend to believe that their point is wrong, even though it may actually be right, despite the distortion.

As youbet says, sometimes I agree with his points - but I can't agree with how he gets to it.

So it is counterproductive. If you fed all the fact checks from his films into a computer that had no other info, and then told the computer that MM was producing a film against Capitalism, the computer would determine that Capitalism = GOOD.

edit/add:
He gets a lot of heat and makes unpopular statements.
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Not from me. I admire people with the courage to make unpopular statements. But they need to back those statements up with real facts, not distortions. What's the saying - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? He makes extraordinary claims, then uses distortions to back them up. If that is "entertainment", I'd rather see it on Saturday Night Live than on something labelled a "documentary".

-ERD50
 
ERD50,

Thank you! You just made my point. And of course if he criticizes present day capitalism he must be totally anti-capitalist what like MAYBE a Commie? Therefore what he's undemocratic and what else? Reminds of the Bush days where if an antiwar sentiment was expressed then by golly one was down right unAmerican! BTW since when is giving billions of dollars to corporations who then give it out as bonuses, capitalistic? Sounds like good old fashioned corporate welfare to me!
 
Let's all try to be nice to each other and stay on the original topic. A generalized argument about the wonders/evils of capitalism will probably get out of hand. Thank you.
 
His point in Sicko was our health care system in this country needs fixing. It's a big discussion right now as I'm sure you know. So that does not seem like an invalid point to me. I get the feeling that you did not watch the video. If you did you would realize he is criticizing the bailout.
 
mountaintosea said:
ERD50,

Thank you! You just made my point.
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Well, I'm not sure which comment you are responding to, but in consideration of Gumby's request let's stick to MM the cinematographer.

mountaintosea said:
His point in Sicko was our health care system in this country needs fixing. ...
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Yes, yes, and I agree that HC needs fixing. But as some of us have said, do his arguments stand up to scrutiny?

Nope, didn't watch Sicko, but after watching most of BFC and reading analysis of and seeing excerpts of some of the other efforts I think I see an obvious trend. I doubt that my time would be rewarded. If MM suddenly starts producing unbiased films, I'm sure I'll be made aware of it, and I would be glad to watch them. As I said, I do think he is talented.

-ERD50
 
mountaintosea said:
Sorry I don't watch CNN. I don't care what the "left" has to say about him. (Whoever they are) Of course his films have a point of view. Of course he edits. Every film, documentary etc. is edited. And of course I knew that was going to be your argument. He starts discussions where there is none. Sicko was a prime example of that. Who was talking about health care before his film? As a retiree I'm real focused on that issue. I'm concerned that the Dems are going to cave once again. If you don't think health care is an issue go to the health section of this board.

He gets a lot of heat and makes unpopular statements. He has a stage and he uses it. Good for him! I didn't see Roger and Me. But apparently that is the movie that really started his film career.
Click to expand...

Ok, you don't watch Fox or CNN or know who Ann Coulter is. I am pretty sure you also have not done as I suggest and Google Moore's films. I am not even sure if you pay much attention to the news because believe it or not there were a few people who talked about health care prior to 2007 and the release of Sicko. You may want to listen to a pretty much any Democratic Presidential candidate speeches since oh I don't know say 1964 and quite a few Republicans as well.

I don't mind the Moore has opinions, heck I agreed with more than I disagreed with him in Bowling for Columbine. I am extremely open to different points of views. The problems with Moore is calls his films documentary. Documentaries are to suppose to be factual, filmmaker are allowed to have a point of view, and they don't even have to present both sides of story.

Where Moore crosses the line is when he tells us the bad folks in Greedville are killing people because they replaced the red lights with green lights in the traffic signals. He then uses to trick photography to "prove" that red lights have replaced, and than adds scenes of horrendous accidents to scare you and interviews of the poor accident victims and their family
to generate sympathy. He neglects to mention that neither the accidents or the victims are related to the folks at Greedvillle. At this point Moore become a propagandist not a documentary.

So while you may be thrilled about a new Moore film, I shudder to think about the damage he will do an intelligent discussion on what we should be doing to reform/regulate financial institutions. Because the real problem with Moore films is millions of people leave them believing they are more knowledgeable about subject,when in fact they have been manipulated.


The German people didn't have Google or the internet when Leni Riefenstahl made Triumph of Will which was widely popular, critically acclaimed and created a lot of discussion back in its day. We don't have to remain ignorant.
 
mountaintosea said:
And of course I knew that was going to be your argument.
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That's not true either.

If you don't want Mikey's pros and cons discussed and commented on, don't start a thread inviting such discussion and comments.
 
The irony here is Michael Moore is making a movie lambasting Capitalism as an institution and laughing all the way to the bank since he will be earning millions (tens of millions??) off this movie. Capitalism indeed.

And the bank bailouts may end up returning a profit for the government depending on the future of our economy and the speed, breadth and depth of the recovery. In the meantime, the average people who have virtually no savings didn't lose anything in the banking collapse. In contrast, wealthier individuals (like us) loss our ASSets in this downturn. Guess who pays taxes (to cover any shortfalls in TARP etc) and who doesn't.

I'll do my part and not pay to see this movie, but rather see it for free somehow. Maybe watch a pirated copy - take Capitalism completely out of my transaction with Michael Moore. Clearly he would have no grounds on which to complain given his lack of love for Capitalism. :)
 
FUEGO said:
The irony here is Michael Moore is making a movie lambasting Capitalism as an institution and laughing all the way to the bank since he will be earning millions (tens of millions??) off this movie. Capitalism indeed.
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This is, to me, the delicious irony. So many of the people who rail against "capitalism" are among the most successful capitalists out there. They make money by convincing people how bad capitalism is. Are they doing this for free? Are they giving away their work? Nope -- they want to profit from bashing the profit motive.

Capitalism has some undesirable side effects, I think. When taken to completely unregulated extremes it can lead to the type of unequal wealth distribution that creates social unrest and has contributed to revolutions in France and Russia. But on the plus side, I know of no system which creates as much wealth. So the trick is to encourage the risk taking and entrepreneurial spirit of capitalism without allowing the type of "excesses" that could destabilize society and dismantle the vital middle class. In other words, increase societal wealth without seeing fewer and fewer people benefiting from it.
 
ziggy29 said:
Capitalism has some undesirable side effects, I think. When taken to completely unregulated extremes ...

So the trick is to encourage the risk taking and entrepreneurial spirit of capitalism without allowing the type of "excesses" that could destabilize society and dismantle the vital middle class. In other words, increase societal wealth without seeing fewer and fewer people benefiting from it.
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I agree with the observations, however I don't think the solution is "tricky" at all.

From what I've observed, the only time "excesses" come into play is where there is not a free and transparent market. I've used this line before, but essentially "greed has little power in a free market". A "greedy" entrepreneur cannot overcharge if there are competitors.

For the most part, I think free markets can work pretty well on their own. In some cases, the consumer is at a disadvantage with respect to transparency. I can't really tell if my food was cut with some cheap (and maybe unhealthy) substitute, etc. So I do think some government (or preferably, industry) action is required - labeling laws and enforcement for example. If the govt and industry focused on transparency, and opening up closed markets, I think we would all be better off.

Keeping the regulation simple but effective will encourage competitive capitalism, which results in more jobs and more value to consumers, which helps the "little guy".

-ERD50
 
So basically Mr. Moore is making a movie where he displays his ignorance of the financial markets and he invites his viewers to roll around in the filth with him. I think I will be avoiding this movie and anything related to it.
 
Ziggy I agree with you. Brewer watch the movie then voice your opinion about his movie. It appears to be a movie regarding the bailout. So that's anti-capitalism and filthy? I'm sure all of you who don't want to contribute to Mike's wealth can very easily find it online.
I shouldn't post if I don't want a discussion? You guys don't discuss you lambast. Like I said, I posted the video because I thought some people would be interested in seeing his movie. But I know that he has a lot of detractors out there. I don't watch CNN or Fox because I haven't had a TV since the early 80s. (I wouldn't watch Fox news if I did.) And I know who Anne Coulter is, but I'm not going to agree with a statement that she lies when I don't watch or listen to her. And believe it or not I'm also aware of the criticisms surrounding Moore's films. Also I'm not a Democrat etc. I was around when the Clintons tried to reform health care. Unfortunately I was too busy working to pay much attention. And yes Senator Edward Kennedy has been trying for decades to get a decent HC bill. But I like Moore's in your face style and he brings issues to the table which really stir people up! Like some of you for instance! He's a lightening rod.
 
Why on earth would I give this numbskull money to blather idiotic nonsense at me? He obviously has no idea what went on over the last couple of years but is nevertheless ready to make some money pandering to all the mouthbreathers out there. No thanks.
 
"Yeah, but it's the only game in town!" - Canada Bill Jones, after George Devol told him the Faro game in Cairo, Illinois was crooked.

Somehow this thread reminded me of this quote. :whistle:
 
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