Join Early Retirement Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 08-13-2011, 04:40 PM   #141
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,648
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
i said earlier



and here another poster provides explanation of that very thing, i.e. taxpayers (in this case corps.) spending money (expenses, capital investment) to reduce their tax burden via "deductions, depreciation and tax credits".



and to top it off, she even says (see the red highlight above) that such spending "stimulate(s) the economy". my premise seems well defended by the above post.
I'm bowing out as well. What seems not to be understood...is that the current spending from these companies is done based on good business decisions...not forced taxation. That spending does stimulate the economy. However, there have been many times we did not take the full 179 expense deduction because there was no ROI or did not hire that employee because we did not need them.....or it was not necessary to further our business. No one makes business decisions based on taxation.
It seems you'd rather force it thru higher taxation...or create another hefty expense small business owners have to factor in (as if they don't have enough already)....taking another % of the decisions partly out of the hands of the owners. This is wrong and counterproductive on so many levels. IMHO your view is not a 360 degree view and therefore (fill in the words).
I give up.
__________________

__________________
sheehs1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 Early Retirement and Financial Independence Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

Are you planning to be financially independent as early as possible so you can live life on your own terms? Discuss successful investing strategies, asset allocation models, tax strategies and other related topics in our online forum community. Our members range from young folks just starting their journey to financial independence, military retirees and even multimillionaires. No matter where you fit in you'll find that Early-Retirement.org is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with our members, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create a retirement blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 08-13-2011, 06:17 PM   #142
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheehs1 View Post
I'm bowing out as well. JDW...if you don't understand that buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two and receiving a tax credit for it......STIMULATES the economy there is no point in further discussion.
All of those things result in money back into the economy ! Why do you think the government grants it !
I give up.

LOL!!!!! i agree, i have making that point exactly. what you said, in essence, was that you realize that people will look for ways to reduce their taxes and "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two and receiving a tax credit for it" will stimulate the economy while reducing their taxes. all i have added to that is the premise that the higher the top tax rates are, the more motivation small business owners will have, and hence they will be more likely, to look for ways to reduce their taxes, and therefore more of them will start "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two". i find it amazing that you choose this (me agreeing with you) as a reason to bow out!
__________________

__________________
jdw_fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 06:42 PM   #143
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
LOL!!!!! i agree, i have making that point exactly. what you said, in essence, was that you realize that people will look for ways to reduce their taxes and "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two and receiving a tax credit for it" will stimulate the economy while reducing their taxes. all i have added to that is the premise that the higher the top tax rates are, the more motivation small business owners will have, and hence they will be more likely, to look for ways to reduce their taxes, and therefore more of them will start "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two". i find it amazing that you choose this (me agreeing with you) as a reason to bow out!
Since I didn't provide closure on that part of your position, allow me bow back in long enough to do so.

Yes, lower taxes on specific forms of income can stimulate a shift to those forms. But what you didn't prove, was part C of my earlier statement:


Quote:
A) That it is possible for most businesses to consistently (year after year) shift their income from a higher tax rate classification to a lower tax rate classification.

B) That this shift would generally result in economic/job growth.

C) That increasing the tax rates would create more of this activity than would occur at lower tax rates.
My numeric example showed that the higher tax rates on income lowered the value of the investment and lowered total income to the business owner. That is not an incentive. IOW, yes, lower cap gains tax rates will tend to shift income to cap gains. But further increases in income tax rates lowers incentives across the board, and does not make up the difference to the point the business owner ends up with MORE money in his pocket after taxes. If it did, my numeric example would show that.

You show me a legitimate after-tax numeric example that shows that, and we will talk.


-ERD50
__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 06:49 PM   #144
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
i stand by my response of

Quote:
this isnt correct. the taxes due on the business' profit by the potential buyer of the business may influence whether that buyer does in fact buy it but when the business owner is do an analysis of his/her business to determine its value for sale a business owner doesnt include the personal income taxes s/he would be paying on the profit if s/he still owned it.
And as I replied at the time - your numbers ignore the effect (on income) of the very taxes that you apply. So no, they don't support your view, they counter it. I'll repeat the criteria this needs to meet to be convincing:
i have bought many income producing properties and reviewed the APODs of many more and NEVER have i seen the owners personal income taxes as an expense therefore i dont believe you when you say that an owners personal income taxes will show up on a business' expense report, cash flow report or balance sheet. therefore i stand by my statement, even though you dont like it.

i also think it is kinda backhanded for you to try and dispute my premise (higher tax rates in the top tax brackets will stimulate job/economic growth because the psychology of taxpayers is to try and pay less taxes) by absolutely not discussing said psychology. it seem like you didnt like my premise, couldnt refute it (by discussing said psychology) so you changed the argument away from psychology. your numbers argument says nothing about the psychology of taxpayers and therefore doesnt prove your position.
__________________
jdw_fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 06:57 PM   #145
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,012
how does any of this

Quote:
Originally Posted by ERD50 View Post
Since I didn't provide closure on that part of your position, allow me bow back in long enough to do so.

Yes, lower taxes on specific forms of income can stimulate a shift to those forms. But what you didn't prove, was part C of my earlier statement:




My numeric example showed that the higher tax rates on income lowered the value of the investment and lowered total income to the business owner. That is not an incentive. IOW, yes, lower cap gains tax rates will tend to shift income to cap gains. But further increases in income tax rates lowers incentives across the board, and does not make up the difference to the point the business owner ends up with MORE money in his pocket after taxes. If it did, my numeric example would show that.

You show me a legitimate after-tax numeric example that shows that, and we will talk.


-ERD50
in any way address this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
LOL!!!!! i agree, i have making that point exactly. what you said, in essence, was that you realize that people will look for ways to reduce their taxes and "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two and receiving a tax credit for it" will stimulate the economy while reducing their taxes. all i have added to that is the premise that the higher the top tax rates are, the more motivation small business owners will have, and hence they will be more likely, to look for ways to reduce their taxes, and therefore more of them will start "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two". i find it amazing that you choose this (me agreeing with you) as a reason to bow out!
there is no mention of "lower taxes on specific forms of income" in the post of mine you quoted.
__________________
jdw_fire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 07:15 PM   #146
Thinks s/he gets paid by the post
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,648
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
LOL!!!!! i agree, i have making that point exactly. what you said, in essence, was that you realize that people will look for ways to reduce their taxes and "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two and receiving a tax credit for it" will stimulate the economy while reducing their taxes. all i have added to that is the premise that the higher the top tax rates are, the more motivation small business owners will have, and hence they will be more likely, to look for ways to reduce their taxes, and therefore more of them will start "buying equipment and taking immediate 179 depreciation or hiring an employee or two". i find it amazing that you choose this (me agreeing with you) as a reason to bow out!
After a second glance at your reply, I had edited my post...but somehow you got the un-edited version of it. Perhaps working on yours as I edited mine. My point stands. Businesses are going to make the best business decision they can regardless of taxation for the reasons already offered.
You have misquoted and misinterpreted the statements. Small businesses do NOT look at ways to reduce their taxes. They spend their time trying to grow their business. I can assure you....not in one board meeting in over 25 years .....have we spoken about ways to reduce taxes. But you seemingly refuse to believe that for some reason.
The End...
__________________
sheehs1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2011, 07:48 PM   #147
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso)
Give me a forum ...
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern IL
Posts: 18,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw_fire View Post
how does any of this

in any way address this?

there is no mention of "lower taxes on specific forms of income" in the post of mine you quoted.
It was in the general context of the debate: In our examples, capital gains income is taxed lower than operating income. Specifically, 15% cap gains tax, and we compared 25% and 50% operating income tax rates.

-ERD50
__________________

__________________
ERD50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Size Of Government - What Do We Really Want? cb7010 FIRE Related Public Policy 183 07-20-2011 08:55 AM
jobs news July 8--losing government jobs palomalou FIRE Related Public Policy 72 07-12-2011 07:31 PM
State Income Tax Strategy - CA and WA Da Nag FIRE and Money 8 07-05-2011 05:29 PM
How Much Can I Withdraw from Trad IRA and Pay No Income Tax? kelso FIRE and Money 10 07-05-2011 08:44 AM

 

 
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:08 AM.
 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.