Mid Term Review time

[golfnut]

Should be getting my review any day now and it probably won't be a good one! If I look in the mirror, I probably serve it. Bottom line, I cannot stand my job and I'm almost FI . I have over 20 years with the Company and eligible for a small pension and subsidized HC. I wish there was a tactful way of asking for a severance package to get the hell out of Dodge. Got a strong feeling I will be put on written warning (which usually last 30 days) and finally probation (another 30 days). Rather not go thru this process.

Anyone got some suggestions. Note I do not want to resign since I plan on collecting unemployment. I do have my resume out there but jobs aren't too plentiful.

 

[Bikerdude]

Should be getting my review any day now and it probably won't be a good one! If I look in the mirror, I probably serve it. Bottom line, I cannot stand my job and I'm almost FI . I have over 20 years with the Company and eligible for a small pension and subsidized HC. I wish there was a tactful way of asking for a severance package to get the hell out of Dodge. Got a strong feeling I will be put on written warning (which usually last 30 days) and finally probation (another 30 days). Rather not go thru this process.

Anyone got some suggestions. Note I do not want to resign since I plan on collecting unemployment. I do have my resume out there but jobs aren't too plentiful.

Sounds like they are building a case to fire you. What happens after the final probation? OTOH 99 weeks of unemployment is a pretty good severance IMO just might be hard to get if fired or quit.

 

[golfnut]

Sounds like they are building a case to fire you. What happens after the final probation? OTOH 99 weeks of unemployment is a pretty good severance IMO just might be hard to get if fired or quit.

Thanks for the response. If one is fired due to "non-performance", are you saying you would be ineligible for unemployment?

 

[Bikerdude]

Thanks for the response. If one is fired due to "non-performance", are you saying you would be ineligible for unemployment?

In CT if you are fired you must have a hearing (your state law may differ) in which each side states their case. They then make a decision as to your eligibility to collect. This is why they are documenting everything. If it comes to this I would suggest consulting an employment lawyer so you don't blow it at the hearing. Money well spent IMO. Also if you are old and they replace you with someone younger you may have an age discrimination case. They are however hard to prove.

Disclaimer: I could be wrong on this.

 

[growing_older]

If it comes to that, in many cases a company will tell you that they will not contest an unemployment claim, especially if it avoids getting an employment lawyer involved. Even if they are documenting a case to have a paper trail, they may prefer to take the easier, less contentious route of suggesting you are being let go for "lack of work" or some such. Depends somewhat on company policy and attitude. Do you know what approach they took with others before you?

 

[TooFrugal]

I would strongly suggest consulting an employment attorney. Companies will often sweeten severance packages in order to avoid a lawsuit, which even if they win can be very costly. A good attorney may be able to negotiate a decent severance package for you and may be able to guide you on your unemployment benefits options.

Alternatively, even if you get put on probation, can you do a good job, turn things around and avoid getting fired? Or would you rather just leave at this point?

 

[donheff]

I wish there was a tactful way of asking for a severance package to get the hell out of Dodge. Got a strong feeling I will be put on written warning (which usually last 30 days) and finally probation (another 30 days). Rather not go thru this process.

Anyone got some suggestions. Note I do not want to resign since I plan on collecting unemployment. I do have my resume out there but jobs aren't too plentiful.

I didn't hear anything that sounds like the company is at fault here. The most reasonable thing to do is to quit. Your other option is to continue with your plan to get fired so you can get unemployment compensation. Just make sure your pension and HC is guaranteed if you get yourself fired.

 

[fisherman]

First of all is this really how you want to leave a situation?

Also be sure to check your state laws. In my deep red state of TN if you are fired it means no unemployment. Also for the company I use to work for if you were fired you could not keep your health benefits into retirement. Just had a friend there fired at 55 who was eligible to retire at 55 with health benefits lose them this way. He was not even offered the option to resign and keep them.

I live in what is called a right to work state which means they can fire you for any and NO reason and you lose all at that point so make sure you know your States employment laws.

 

[REWahoo]

Echoing what other have said, being "terminated for cause" (AKA "fired") in some states makes you ineligible for unemployment insurance. Better check the laws where you live before trying to game the system.

 

[walkinwood]

Just ask them to lay you off. Even if you don't get a severance, you'll get unemployment. It is a win/win - they don't have to go through the process or worry about litigation and you get unemployment out of it, and don't have to water down your principles along the way.

Personally, I couldn't accept payment for intentionally sub-standard work.

 

[RonBoyd]

So, you worked for a Company for 20 years and, now, want them to pay you to go away. And you are asking for our approval. I say dance with the one who brung you or get a new partner... but do it cleanly (take the high road).

 

[Runner]

I'm a lawyer and deal with this situation often. Unless you have done something criminal or near-criminal, it's a rare employer who won't allow you to resign in lieu of termination and agree not to contest unemployment compensation in exchange for you agreeing to waive any and all claims arising out of your employment and separation. Even my most hard-nosed law enforcement employer clients realize that this is generally the win-win solution since there is rarely a "100% legally clean" separation in the minefield that employment law has become. Of course, whether you should waive any and all claims is something that you might want to discuss with an employment lawyer to whom you can describe your precise situation.

 

[golfnut]

Just ask them to lay you off. Even if you don't get a severance, you'll get unemployment. It is a win/win - they don't have to go through the process or worry about litigation and you get unemployment out of it, and don't have to water down your principles along the way.

Personally, I couldn't accept payment for intentionally sub-standard work.

Note it is not a case of "intentionally sub-standard work". For nineteen of my years at this company, I received excellent reviews. New mgmt comes in after a restructuring and all of a sudden, I can't doing anything right. Note some of my "older" colleagues are in the same boat (but they go along with the drill more easily than I do). This is not uncommon with megacorps.

Had my review, as predicted it was not good but no written warning. Manager made some comments to me which were uncalled for but I kept my cool. Might just take the high road real soon and resign (retire).

Anyhow thanks for the responses.

 

[Sue J]

My DH went through a similar progression. After 2 years of slow torture he finally was told that his contract was not renewed. Same type of thing where he was a respected and valued employee for 20 years and then all of a sudden he can't do anything right and neither can any of his cohorts in his age range. He was the last of about 6 or 7 who have been eliminated in the past few years.

He was a public employee in a county social service agency with a superintendent overseen by a board. If they want to fire you they have to find cause and justify it to the board. To avoid the board they progressively document all your shortcomings and offenses and then they have a reason to not renew the yearly contract.

DH saw it coming and we prepared, buying back previously cashed-out years of service and then we hunkered down and saved as much as we could until it finally happened in Jan, 2010.

He was eligible to retire with a COLA-ed pension so that's what we did. He's been officially retired since June, 2010 and we are doing just fine. He's so glad to be away from the horrible atmosphere at work and he's getting used to his new life. Most days he's pretty relaxed and normal, some days he just has to giggle.

More details about his situation if you are interested -
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/dhs-job-not-renewed-hes-retiring-49415.html

Good luck with your decision, there is life after the crap.

 

[golfnut]

My DH went through a similar progression. After 2 years of slow torture he finally was told that his contract was not renewed. Same type of thing where he was a respected and valued employee for 20 years and then all of a sudden he can't do anything right and neither can any of his cohorts in his age range. He was the last of about 6 or 7 who have been eliminated in the past few years.

He was a public employee in a county social service agency with a superintendent overseen by a board. If they want to fire you they have to find cause and justify it to the board. To avoid the board they progressively document all your shortcomings and offenses and then they have a reason to not renew the yearly contract.

DH saw it coming and we prepared, buying back previously cashed-out years of service and then we hunkered down and saved as much as we could until it finally happened in Jan, 2010.

He was eligible to retire with a COLA-ed pension so that's what we did. He's been officially retired since June, 2010 and we are doing just fine. He's so glad to be away from the horrible atmosphere at work and he's getting used to his new life. Most days he's pretty relaxed and normal, some days he just has to giggle.

More details about his situation if you are interested -
http://www.early-retirement.org/forums/f28/dhs-job-not-renewed-hes-retiring-49415.html

Good luck with your decision, there is life after the crap.

Thanks for the response. I'm glad it turned out great for you and your hubby.

 

[clifp]

Note it is not a case of "intentionally sub-standard work". For nineteen of my years at this company, I received excellent reviews. New mgmt comes in after a restructuring and all of a sudden, I can't doing anything right. Note some of my "older" colleagues are in the same boat (but they go along with the drill more easily than I do). This is not uncommon with megacorps.

Had my review, as predicted it was not good but no written warning. Manager made some comments to me which were uncalled for but I kept my cool. Might just take the high road real soon and resign (retire).

Anyhow thanks for the responses.

Glad you didn't get a written warning. Since you are close to FI anyhow and clearly burned out. I see no harm in letting your boss know next time there are rumors of a RIF coming that you are ok with them letting you go.

It is quite possible that the new management is just setting the ground work for layoffs.

 

[TooFrugal]

since there is rarely a "100% legally clean" separation in the minefield that employment law has become

I worked at a mega corp where I basically was the go to manager for everyone they wanted to fire in the department. A big part of it was that I was always very careful to consult with the legal department every step of the way and kept painstaking detailed records.

Some of the other managers were not as careful and in one case I think it cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars. (The guy's wife was an employment attorney.) In another case it was tens of thousands of dollars.

So if you think you still might be on the road to being put on probation or getting fired, you really may have more leverage than you think. Companies hate employment law suits because when it goes to a jury logic doesn't always prevail so it is kind of a wild card for companies and most will do quite a bit to avoid even the possibility of a lawsuit. Especially if you are older and have a history of good reviews.

 

[walkinwood]

Note it is not a case of "intentionally sub-standard work". For nineteen of my years at this company, I received excellent reviews. New mgmt comes in after a restructuring and all of a sudden, I can't doing anything right. Note some of my "older" colleagues are in the same boat (but they go along with the drill more easily than I do). This is not uncommon with megacorps.

Had my review, as predicted it was not good but no written warning. Manager made some comments to me which were uncalled for but I kept my cool. Might just take the high road real soon and resign (retire).

Anyhow thanks for the responses.

Golfnut,
I thought I read that in your initial post. Apologies.
Like others have said, you have a good amount of leverage. Ask for a package. If you're going to quit anyway, ask. Then ask your manager's manager, and then upwards from there. What are they going to do? fire you?

 

[Stevewc]

Had my review, as predicted it was not good but no written warning. Manager made some comments to me which were uncalled for but I kept my cool.
Anyhow thanks for the responses.

This was a very wise move.
The best thing I ever did was learn to let them do the talking, have their mickey mouse say, sign the paper and get the hell out of the room as quickly as possible.
Its a tough lesson but I think the best policy in most cases.
My intent and focus became retiring. For the last 7 or 8 years I didn't care if I got a raise or not. Didn't mean anything to me. My goal was set and my eyes were on getting out.
Nothing else mattered to me.
It was actually liberating to sit through an evaluation knowing the joke was on the clown doing the E-val.
I was going to be leaving them in the hell hole and BS they loved and lived in.
The last supervisor was shocked when I pulled the rip chord. I gave almost zero notice and took several vacation days to ride out what little I had to give. I had planned my exit for years and years and it played out beautifully.
Like the old show " The A Team"
I love it when a plan comes together.
Steve

 

[golfnut]

I'm a lawyer and deal with this situation often. Unless you have done something criminal or near-criminal, it's a rare employer who won't allow you to resign in lieu of termination and agree not to contest unemployment compensation in exchange for you agreeing to waive any and all claims arising out of your employment and separation. Even my most hard-nosed law enforcement employer clients realize that this is generally the win-win solution since there is rarely a "100% legally clean" separation in the minefield that employment law has become. Of course, whether you should waive any and all claims is something that you might want to discuss with an employment lawyer to whom you can describe your precise situation.

Runner, you hit the nail on the head. Was given a "60 Day Performance Improvement Plan" today. Did not sign it. Told HR and my manager, I need to mull it over. Basically, if I do not meet the performance criteria set forth in the plan, employment can be terminated between now and 11/15. I could also resign and get paid thru 11/15. Not sure if accrued PTO days would be added on after the 11/15 date. Guess I better ask.

What is interesting is my performance rating is a 2 out of five. 2 means periodically meets requirements. We were previously advised that this is not considered a bad rating.

TooFrugal, you responded as follows:

So if you think you still might be on the road to being put on probation or getting fired, you really may have more leverage than you think. Companies hate employment law suits because when it goes to a jury logic doesn't always prevail so it is kind of a wild card for companies and most will do quite a bit to avoid even the possibility of a lawsuit. Especially if you are older and have a history of good reviews.

How do I do I let the company know that I will be addressing this with an attorney in a non-threatening fashion? I had good reviews for 19 out of 20 years. Would it be worthwhile to go back to them and ask for a 6 month package and I will resign immediately (since I am an old guy)??


Guess the silver lining here is my miniscule noncolad pension and retiree subsidized hc will not be adversely affected.


By the way, thanks for all the feedback so far.

Golfnut

 

[haha]

I had good reviews for 19 out of 20 years.

It may be too personal to ask, but what happened to break this very long string of good reviews? Was it some personal calamity? Or just some kind of corporate mess around?

I am not lawyer, but it would seem that if you plan to speak to a lawyer, don't tip off your employers. It cannot be done in a way that will not immediately turn you into an enemy. Find out from the expert where you stand, and then act in accordance with his suggestions to maximize your outcome, or at least minimize the negative possibilities.

Ha

 

[golfnut]

It may be too personal to ask, but what happened to break this very long string of good reviews? Was it some personal calamity? Or just some kind of corporate mess around?

I am not lawyer, but it would seem that if you plan to speak to a lawyer, don't tip off your employers. It cannot be done in a way that will not immediately turn you into an enemy. Find out from the expert where you stand, and then act in accordance with his suggestions to maximize your outcome, or at least minimize the negative possibilities.

Ha

Thanks for the response. As expected, today my manager asked me for the signed improvement plan. I advised him that I am seeking legal counsel prior to signing it. I also called an attorney to discuss the situation.

 

[Livin Large in MT]

So sorry to hear about this; too often employers find convenient ways to terminate perfectly acceptable employees right before they can retire. I worked in our state dept of labor and adjudicated unemployment claims and saw cases just like yours and much much worse regularly. It is sickening...
You are wise to contact your attorney; you also (I hope) should have your personnel records copied and in your possession and any other emails and letters you think would be good to have (much of that info will be good to have if only to prove that you should receive unemployment if it comes to that). Once you tell an employer you are contacting an attorney they can and usually do lock up all records that you may have. You could even be escorted from the building so make sure you have everything you need. At this point you have to suck it up, act confident and be very very tough. Be on the lookout for signs that they want to negotiate. Be friendly but firm. Hang in there; keep smiling and act like you don't have a care in the world. It isn't easy but you can be successful; my spouse went through a similar situation. We went through hell for over a year responding to written accusations and so forth...finally he was able to cut a deal and life has been good. He has a couple years to go to retire but he will do it with full benefits and once you go through the fire, they usually leave you alone. Management was required, as part of the deal, to clear his files of all the paper they had put in there. Good luck and hang in there; this will pass.

 

[TooFrugal]

How do I do I let the company know that I will be addressing this with an attorney in a non-threatening fashion? I had good reviews for 19 out of 20 years. Would it be worthwhile to go back to them and ask for a 6 month package and I will resign immediately (since I am an old guy)??

I have been on both sides of the 60 day plan many times as a manager and once on the other side working with a close friend. In the friend case, we interviewed several employment attorneys. Some said take the severance being offered and run since it wasn't legally mandatory, but one was very sharp, experienced and aggressive. We got the private fax number of the CEO from an inside friend and faxed a law suit threat directly to the CEO's personal fax machine with the specifics - age, years of good reviews, etc.

It turned out pretty cool. My friend got quite a nice settlement and the manager that did the firing got fired himself over the whole fiasco. He did not have a paper trail and my friend had just gotten a good review from a different manager which included a generous performance bonus.

My friend did the same thing as you - refused to sign the document offered until she could consult with an attorney. Her attorney then sent the fax which got their attention and he then negotiated the much improved severance offer. Her old manager getting fired was just icing on the cake for her. Though her manager delayed his firing for months by going out on a stress disability.

On the manager side, I have to tell you that by the time employees were put on a plan it was usually just a formality and most did in fact end up either quitting during the 60 days or were fired at the end of it.

I only have experience with this one megacorp so other companies may not be as willing to deal on the severance issue. But in any event I think a serious situation like this is something I think you are right to consult an attorney over.

 

[sheehs1]

Consulting an employment lawyer in this situation is absolutely what needs to be done. A lot depends on your states employment laws. Are you in a "right to work" state or not? Have any of your civil liberties been breached? There are also "wrongful termination" laws. As others have said here, employment laws are a minefield but no company likes to have a suit brought against them. I had a similar situation but mine was no megacorp. It was a small incorporated family business. I was Vice President and a family member! Still...I had a greedy sister who went after me (wanted all the perks for herself and her family) actually hiring outside consultants to wear me down and help her "facilitate" me out (took years to wear me down). When I finally realized my back was against the wall (took my mothers death and quite a while for it to sink in) , I went to an employment lawyer. I will tell you what they told me. Absolutely DO NOT QUIT! Do NOT SIGN anything without your lawyer looking at it...etc. I hired a mediator who happened to also be a lawyer...and was able to negotiate a deferred comp package that was voted on and accepted by our board. Once or IF you decide to fight...fight with all you have! I hope you have kept good documentation! And I hope you have given them no real reason to fire you. Good luck to you!