Is our attitude toward work different than general population?

Wow. This thread is exposing some raw nerve endings.

Working people will carry their load and more IF they feel appreciated. That includes fair compensation, of course, but the emotional knowledge that peers and bosses appreciate what you accomplish is priceless for most people.

Someone needs to write a book. What am I saying? There are probably hundreds of these books in print…aren’t there? Not the self-help drivel that so many consultants churn out. You know, the guys who can write ten chapters about love making, but who never had a girlfriend. No, I mean a book that touches the heart of what TangoMonster so eloquently described. Where you put your heart into the task, and then some arrogant former roommate of the Division Manager completely misses the importance of what it took out of you to give it to him. Does if feel like you’re were wasting your time? No, it’s like wasting your life, for money. No wonder so many people on this forum want out.

I remember a conversation with a guy “down from headquarters” who, for some reason, had been watching one of our hourly workers in shipping. Mr. Headquarters commented about how “lazy” this fellow was. I knew the shipping guy well. He knew his job, and had a sense of responsibility and pride about what he did, and there was no backlog that I could see. I was puzzled, and it really made me mad. I pointed out that not only was the worker doing his job well, but when he left work at four, he went directly to a body shop business he owned and worked there until around midnight. And he did this every day. I told him I didn’t know how HE defined “lazy”, but this worker sure as hell wasn’t. It wasn’t too many years later that “lazy” quit his plant job, and last I heard, he had quite a successful business going. Who do you bet was better able to retire early?
 
People think the wife and I are insane, the difference is that I KNOW they are insane hehe.
 
Wow. This thread is exposing some raw nerve endings.

Working people will carry their load and more IF they feel appreciated. That includes fair compensation, of course, but the emotional knowledge that peers and bosses appreciate what you accomplish is priceless for most people.
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Yes, a raw nerve...I am also goal orientated and actually dont mind working but it is the office politics that gets old...It's "Lord of the Flies" out there:p
 
cute fuzzy bunny said:
I'm BS averse. I love working and spend a good 4-5 hours a day doing stuff around the house. But I cant imagine sitting in another meeting where we argue over whose name we should use for a program. I cant imagine spending another minute working for someone who is a closet moron that cant stay in the closet. I cant imagine spending half my time dealing with [-]bullshit egos and stupid personal agendas[/-] office politics.

A lot of these folks are slow boiled frogs. They need a little time in some cool water to realize what they're up to their necks in.
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Ding! Doing! Doing!
Wanting to leave dealing with Corporate (or government) BS, endless meetings, whinny employees, moronic management, useless policies, and HR flavor of the month mandates, all while working 10+ hour days with long commutes and high pressure jobs with very little recognition and even less satisfaction is what most of us wanted to leave. We are not afraid of work...most of us have worked our butts off to get to FIRE.

Nobody give you the means to be FIRE, you earn it throgh planning and hard work. No, we are not adverse to work...just working for somebody else.
 
I do not think our general attitude about work is different than Gen Pop. I can conclude that by the number of people working and b!t<hing about work situations.

But I have noticed a couple of phenonmenon:
  1. Most people do not even think it is possible to ER early (at least in their situations). They assume they will need to work. If they do not figure it out soon, they will not have the benefit of compounding and it really is not possible for them.
  2. If people need to continue to work... It is less disturbing to the mind to conjure up reasons that one needs to work. Example 1: Real Motivation - Need More Money to live, Stated Rationalization - It keeps me engaged.
  3. Some people are in such a rut, they cannot imagine something different. Kinda like a horse with blinders on... just keep plodding along. There is some comfort and feeling of safety sticking with the Demon one knows.
It is never too late to improve one's financial situation (make it better than it currently is), but it can get too late to achieve FI and especially ER! O0
 
tightasadrum said:
Working people will carry their load and more IF they feel appreciated. That includes fair compensation, of course, but the emotional knowledge that peers and bosses appreciate what you accomplish is priceless for most people.
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This is very true (the fact of the "emotional knowledge" that people appreciate what you accomplish being invaluable). Making a lot of money, even doing work that saves and improves lives, but having to work for and with people you don't respect, must be where the term "golden handcuffs" came from. The money trap is insidious.

I think it's great when people in their 20s and 30s figure this ER thing out (well, it's great other than the fact that it makes me a little envious because it's taken me longer to get a clue - heh-heh).
 
Tightasadrum: write a book? Sound like work, I just read Dilbert ;)

To Chicano's comment about most people not thinking ER is possible. This is very true. I certainly didn't. I never gave it a thought until about 1 1/2 years ago. Was really frustrated and rummaging around the net looking for something - don't even remember how I was searching. Found this forum and the light bulb went off. Changed some aspects of my finances, re-ran numbers,pow-wowed with spouse, and moved my target FIRE date up about 5-6 years and DH's date up about 2-3 years (he is 10 years older). Wouldn't have gotten there without everyone's inspiration. If this was pre-internet days, and only co-workers, neighbors and family as examples, probably wouldn't have been able to see that it is possible. So, thanks to all.
 
Tangomonster---Very well said. Most of us have a phenomenal work ethic, it's the rest of the corporate bs that turns us off!
I am 32 and have been working towards ER since 27...people think I am nuts...I think they are crazy for wanting to work till 67!!!
There is a HUGE discrepancy in the amount of pay where I work between assistants and managers/directors....if I made their salary of 250K for even two years....I would be able to semi retire!
I have a lot of hobbies and interests....also, I am able to be with myself and am content with my life. I see a lot of others just fighting to find an outside stimuli that will make it better, rescue them from boredom, and the like. They are the ones that are shopping every other day, complaining about working, keeping up with the Joneses, and the like.
I was watching Wayne Dyer last night and he brought up something really great....Living is Giving....take one thing that you absolutely love....and give it away with a smile and a open heart. This exercise is supposed to help one become detached from things and more grounded in spirituality.
 
I think there just comes a day no matter how much you liked your job that you've had enough and no matter what people say you are leaving .At that point all the mission statements and quality improvement meetings seem like BS .
 
chinaco said:
I do not think our general attitude about work is different than Gen Pop. I can conclude that by the number of people working and b!t<hing about work situations.

But I have noticed a couple of phenonmenon:
  1. Most people do not even think it is possible to ER early (at least in their situations). They assume they will need to work. If they do not figure it out soon, they will not have the benefit of compounding and it really is not possible for them.
  2. If people need to continue to work... It is less disturbing to the mind to conjure up reasons that one needs to work. Example 1: Real Motivation - Need More Money to live, Stated Rationalization - It keeps me engaged.
  3. Some people are in such a rut, they cannot imagine something different. Kinda like a horse with blinders on... just keep plodding along. There is some comfort and feeling of safety sticking with the Demon one knows.
It is never too late to improve one's financial situation (make it better than it currently is), but it can get too late to achieve FI and especially ER! O0
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Many of us can disprove #1, above.

In 2000, at age 52, I wrote my (successful, millionaire, early-retired CFO) brother George an e-mail in which I mentioned that my credit was at rock bottom, I was in debt up to my eyeballs, and that I would probably be working until the day I died, because I honestly didn't think it would be possible for me to ever retire.

George sent back a "tough love" sort of e-mail, ripping me a new one for being so negative and telling me that I was brilliant, gifted in math, and that while he wasn't going to help me figure it out that I could do it and should stop whining!!! That set me back on my heels a bit. I have always had my head in the clouds when it comes to something this practical, and never really thought of myself as brilliant or even capable. I pretty much worship my brothers, though, so I took it to heart.

I dearly love my brothers because they care, and I have thanked George many times for that e-mail during the past seven years. I will be retiring in 2009-2010, 9 or 10 years after I thought it was "impossible", and actually it looks like I will have more spending money after ER than I have ever had in my life.

It would have been easier if I had started when I was 25, with the benefit of compounding that you cite, and hadn't gone through a rough divorce at age 50, but I wanted to point out that it is not impossible to ER just because one starts relatively late.

May everyone have a brother like George.
 
ScaredtoQuit said:
I suspect that the people on this Board are some of the most work-adverse folk I have ever encountered. Do you think we are typical of the general population in this respect?
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I don't think most of us posting here have an aversion to work that is beyond the average person. What I believe is exceptional about those attracted to this board is our self-discipline to do something about our aversion and to seek FIRE through a plan that doesn't (necessarily) involve winning the lottery.
 
JonnyM said:
Thread answer must be yes. The very nature of this board is people trying, and succeeding to get out "early" as we have variously defined it. It stands to reason that we as a group have a different outlook on the whole work thing. The time in life that we "GET IT" seems to be a highly variable factor. Clearly we've got members that are very young that are seeing the benefits of planning now for a early exit from the workforce. I would expect the subset we represent is inversely proportional to age.
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Well said. Most people never get "IT", and stay on the consumer treadmill until the end. Jack Welch, by the way, is performing not working. Clearly most of the media doesn't get it either
 
To answer the original question,

ScaredtoQuit said:
I suspect that the people on this Board are some of the most work-adverse folk I have ever encountered. Do you think we are typical of the general population in this respect? I don't mean our willingness to sacrifice to achieve FI. I mean our desire to not want to work at all... sometimes to the point of giving up not just the "fluffy" material things but sometimes cutting into the "meaty" ones.
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I can't speak for anyone but myself. I would gladly work over 100 hours/week for half my present salary, if I felt that what I was doing had some importance or impact on the world, and if I felt that my capabilities, experience, education, and expertise were appropriately recognized and rewarded.

Instead, as I perceive it to be, work is a world very reminiscent of junior high school, where popularity (or in this case, getting ahead) depended on image and being "in with the in crowd". One gets ahead by knowing and flattering the right people, not by being a qualified, experienced person who is very good at the job.

I view myself as not a pretender, but the genuine article - - so I have no intention of remaining in an environment such as this.

Work certainly was not always this way, and perhaps it is not always this way today. But right now I wear the "golden handcuffs" so I have decided to stay at my present job until I can retire for good (2-3 more years).
 
Want2retire said:
Many of us can disprove #1, above.

In 2000, at age 52, I wrote my (successful, millionaire, early-retired CFO) brother George an e-mail in which I mentioned that my credit was at rock bottom, I was in debt up to my eyeballs, and that I would probably be working until the day I died, because I honestly didn't think it would be possible for me to ever retire.

George sent back a "tough love" sort of e-mail, ripping me a new one for being so negative and telling me that I was brilliant, gifted in math, and that while he wasn't going to help me figure it out that I could do it and should stop whining!!! That set me back on my heels a bit. I have always had my head in the clouds when it comes to something this practical, and never really thought of myself as brilliant or even capable. I pretty much worship my brothers, though, so I took it to heart.

I dearly love my brothers because they care, and I have thanked George many times for that e-mail during the past seven years. I will be retiring in 2009-2010, 9 or 10 years after I thought it was "impossible", and actually it looks like I will have more spending money after ER than I have ever had in my life.

It would have been easier if I had started when I was 25, with the benefit of compounding that you cite, and hadn't gone through a rough divorce at age 50, but I wanted to point out that it is not impossible to ER just because one starts relatively late.

May everyone have a brother like George.
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I had a situation like that were my business was very slow, and all I would do is complain, and whine. Thankfully I called another owner, who actually got into the business because of me, and he told me to get off my lazy ass and quit being a baby, and take the business that I wanted and whining did no good, it just perpetuated bad business.

Best advice I ever got. Now if business even starts getting slow, I go and take more. Gotta love hard love and straight shooters.
 
Want2retire said:
Instead, as I perceive it to be, work is a world very reminiscent of junior high school, where popularity (or in this case, getting ahead) depended on image and being "in with the in crowd". One gets ahead by knowing and flattering the right people, not by being a qualified, experienced person who is very good at the job.
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Amen to that! And I don't really know why I expected it to be different. After all, the kids who were "cool" and "popular" would naturally feel the sense of entitlement and have the expectation that they should continue to reap the social rewards attached to the workplace (favoritism, promotions, higher pay raises, etc.)---and that sense of entitlement and expectation results in confidence. And as much as I hate to admit it, maybe they do actually have more social skills/emotional intelligence, which I know does count as much as hard skills. And the system perpetuates itself because the people in power---who got there by their social "skills" ---are more comfortable with similar people, so I don't ever see it changing.
 
JonnyM said:
It was very clear to the two of us that we weren't defined by our jobs
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That's a key trap for people in my profession (medicine). One of the reasons I have been able to avoid it is that there are no other doctors in my family. I decided to become a doctor because I thought it would be interesting. When it stops being interesting, I'll move on.
 
tangomonster - there's a song out that basically says the same thing - it's like high school all over again, who's dating who, who's bulemic, who's weird - the kid wonders why he bothered to 'grow up' - very funny.
 
chinaco said:
  1. Most people do not even think it is possible to ER early (at least in their situations). They assume they will need to work. If they do not figure it out soon, they will not have the benefit of compounding and it really is not possible for them.
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It didn't occur to me that ER was possible until nearly last Christmas, when I realized that I will someday need to take care of my aging parents, and it would be great if I didn't have to work full-time then. As an only child, there's no sibling I can rely on. That one thought prompted me to look into saving, investing, and retiring early.

I work for the municipal government, and a lot of people retire in their early 60s. Of course the pension system is different now and we don't get to have full benefits when we reach the "rule of 90" like folks hired in the 70s and 80s do.

But if one is serious about ER and can save somewhere between 30-50% of their income, there's no reason one can't retire within 10 to 15 years of serious saving. It's easier to do for a two-income household, but plenty of single folks do it, too.

In terms of our attitude, I don't think we're that different than the general population. Most people seem to be barely tolerating their jobs.

I must admit, though, that the discovery of the possibility of ER highlighted the imperfections in my job. I tend to daydream a lot about ER. It has become somewhat of an obsession. On the one hand, I tell myself it's just another 10 years, then I'm done, so I don't really want to get involved in the office politics. On the other hand, it's so much more fun to daydream about ER than living in the present (and the board is reaffirming my fantasy life). I feel that this is not really healthy, that I shouldn't put my life on hold and just wait for FIRE.

I hope this obsession is like a new love affair that will lose its grip on me as I become more familiar with it. Perhaps it will make the graceful transition from a new hot date so to speak to a familiar best friend (ie spouse). For now, though, it's really hard to find the balance of living my life fully while obsessing over ER. :eek:

Just random thoughts...
 
I guess it sounds like I am in the minority. I am work-averse. I love the movie Office Space cause Peter Gibbons describes my feelings so well when he talks about "his dream of doing nothing"
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I thought it could be"
 
Want2retire said:
Many of us can disprove #1, above...
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Some do figure it out if they are sufficiently motivated. I am glad you did! You are proof that people can make it work. Although, I suspect that you are not typical. It seems that many/most do not figure it out... or maybe they know and just do not have the motivation or self-discipline.

Also to clarify about my previous post - When I was writing the statement, I was not clear about what I was thinking (trying to communicate). I was thinking more in terms of someone being able to ER fairly early ( 45-55 age range). My mistake and lack of clarity. (why can't you guys read my mind ;))


Someone else posted that people could be prepared for Retirement in 10 - 15 years. That is probably true in some cases. But I think it is typically rare unless one has a (relatively) high salary and LBYM lifestyle (careful expense management). I am not sure that combination exists for the majority of the population. I have not studied it, but my impression was that for most people, it would take maybe 20-25 years to save for ER. That is based on some assumptions that I have about most people's earning power and expenditures. For example if the household (family) makes $60k/yr and typically spends $45-50k/yr. Saving and Investing 10k/year is probably not going to get them there unless they take an inordinate amount of risk and luck out. Conversely, if the household makes $150k/year and can save $100k (pre-tax)... 10 - 15 years can build a substantial portfolio that might be able to support them for 35 - 45 years.
 
chinaco said:
I have not studied it, but my impression was that for most people, it would take maybe 20-25 years to save for ER.
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I don't see it that way, and the point of my post was to encourage those who may have been terribly discouraged by such statements.

chinaco said:
That is based on some assumptions that I have about most people's earning power and expenditures. For example if the household (family) makes $60k/yr and typically spends $45-50k/yr. Saving and Investing 10k/year is probably not going to get them there
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True. I think that your hypothetical family in which husband and wife each make only $30K/year, need to raise their income or lower their expenditures if they expect to retire in less than 10 years. Moonlighting and waiting before having children (or choosing not to have children) are both part of many young American families' experience, unfortunately.

My salary has been considerably more than $30K during the 9 years of saving for retirement, though not always more than $60K. I chose not to have a spouse/roommate to help with the expenses.

As a rule of thumb for last minute retirement savers, I really think that if one expects to retire in less than ten years at the very least it is necessary (in addition to substantially/fully contributing to any pre-tax retirement plans) to put 1/3 of one's take-home salary towards paying off debt and then, once that is done, towards retirement. If the remainder is not enough to live the desired lifestyle, the adjustment needs to be made at either the income end (by changing jobs or moonlighting) or the expenditure end (by figuring out how LBYM even more and coming to terms with living that way indefinitely).

Nobody said that preparing for retirement in less than 10 years was easy, but to imply that it is impossible is (in my opinion and experience) misleading.
 
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Want2retire said:
I don't see it that way, and the point of my post was to encourage those who may have been terribly discouraged by such statements.



True. I think that your hypothetical family in which husband and wife each make only $30K/year, need to raise their income or lower their expenditures if they expect to retire in less than 10 years. Moonlighting and waiting before having children (or choosing not to have children) are both part of many young American families' experience, unfortunately.

My salary has been considerably more than $30K during the 9 years of saving for retirement, though not always more than $60K. I chose not to have a spouse/roommate to help with the expenses.

As a rule of thumb for last minute retirement savers, I really think that if one expects to retire in less than ten years at the very least it is necessary (in addition to substantially/fully contributing to any pre-tax retirement plans) to put 1/3 of one's take-home salary towards paying off debt and then, once that is done, towards retirement. If the remainder is not enough to live the desired lifestyle, the adjustment needs to be made at either the income end (by changing jobs or moonlighting) or the expenditure end (by figuring out how LBYM even more and coming to terms with living that way indefinitely).

Nobody said that preparing for retirement in less than 10 years was easy, but to imply that it is impossible is (in my opinion and experience) misleading.
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Oops... Sorry, I just posted the follow-up to expand on what I wrote to ensure you did not misunderstand what I was thinking in terms of FIRE (ing) well before the typical age people retire.

One last clarification. I did not use the word impossible. I went back and reread my posts... I did not imply it to be impossible to accomplish. I suppose that what I was implying was that most people do not have the inclination or will to change their habits until it gets late and it is much more difficult... heck I believe that it does not even occur to most people to consider ER (other than at 62 when SS is available).

You are likely to be correct... People can make it work if they are absolutely determined to do so and follow through.
 
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chinaco said:
You are likely to be correct... People can make it work if they are absolutely determined to do so and follow through.
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You are right: I feel sure that ER within about 10 years (after thinking about doing it and starting to save, not after starting one's first job) CAN be done, and I think I may not be the only one on this message board who has had that goal in mind; some may even have done it.

As for the determination, you are right about that too. It's not easy, especially without a $100K+ salary or other source of wealth. I think several of us here can probably relate to that issue as well.

I am not sure that my planned ER age of 61 (or maybe 62, depending on the market) would give me any advantage as opposed to the ages you mention of 45-55, especially near 55. Here's why:
  • I am not planning to take social security for 4-9 years after I retire, nor do I plan to rely on it since in my case it will be pretty small (and possibly non-existent at some point). I have saved more than will be required to "pay myself social security" during these years just since December.
  • At 62 I will be getting exactly the same small pension (a whole $535/mo or less after taxes) as a 50 to 55-year-old "early out" retiree from my job
  • I will even get the same senior discount as 55-year-olds get at my local theater. :)
As far as I can tell, the only thing I will have that a 55-year-old wouldn't would be a lot more aches and pains from arthritis! :)
 
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Want2retire said:
  • I am not planning to take social security for 4-9 years after I retire, nor do I plan to rely on it since in my case it will be pretty small (and possibly non-existent at some point). I have saved more than will be required to "pay myself social security" during these years just since December.
  • At 62 I will be getting exactly the same small pension (a whole $535/mo or less after taxes) as a 50 to 55-year-old "early out" retiree from my job
  • /quote]
I'm curious why are you delaying SS since your pension is so small . Wouldn't it be better to let your savings grow rather than depend so heavily on them ?
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