steelyman
Moderator Emeritus
Sadly, this whole episode and the discussions/actions surrounding it, are starting to become reminiscent of "The Lord of the Flies".
Clearly a tax increase is the "easy" way to spread the pain. I don't think it is the only way. The "hard" way is to cut spending. I'm not against a tax increase, per se. It's just that I don't think that's the FIRST thing we should do. I know the phrase "fraud, waste and abuse" gets tossed around (especially by politcos), but anyone who has worked in any gummint (or gummint funded) organization (think University in my case) knows that "fraud, waste and abuse" are much more than buzz words. They are real. True, it's easier to just tax everyone more. That may "solve" the immediate issue, but it just sweeps the "problem" under the carpet. That's what we've done for the last 100 years. That's why we pay more and more in taxes as a percent of our personal income, GDP or just about any other measure of productivity or wealth.
Until we are willing to go on a spending "diet", the problem will not go away. Increased taxes are like letting out a suit. It covers the fat, but it doesn't make you any healthier.
if there is a tax increase i would rather it be increased income tax on the high income earners. i think they could bear it better than the lower income people.
Regardless of your position on unions, it seems that the actions in Wisconsin are really damaging public opinion of unions in general.
I had the opposite reaction. I'm proud of union members that are willing to take to the streets to protect their right for collective bargaining. This is a power grab, more insulting because it is being selectively applied, i.e. affecting teachers for instance, but not police or firefighters.
Whatever you are not willing to fight for will be taken from you.
That's exactly how it works at the Federal government level. "Government buying season" starts around September 1st and ends on September 30th (end of budget year). If you don't spend all your money, you risk losing what you didn't spend. Agencies have been looking for ways to "park" their money for spending in the future, but this is pretty tough (if not impossible - agencies have gotten in trouble for this). So, agencies simply buy more than they need on the off chance they need it (and to make sure they have the budget when they really need it).
+1. It's inspiring to see the pictures of the WI state house full of people
standing up for their ability to negotiate their pay and benefits. Adam Smith and Marx would both be proud of them.
The money was never wasted. Of course it didn't encourage any frugality
Not entirely. From what I can tell the unions are willing to accept the wage and benefit concessions. It's the other stuff that will all but bust the union that they are really fighting here.Regardless of your position on unions, it seems that the actions in Wisconsin are really damaging public opinion of unions in general.
Not entirely. From what I can tell the unions are willing to accept the wage and benefit concessions. It's the other stuff that will all but bust the union that they are really fighting here.
I completely agree on spreading the pain. One of the big problems is that with rare exceptions (NJ governor Christie) the politicians are making no or only vague references to share sacrifice and aren't being at all specific.
Raising the retirement age is just the start. It means no and/or reduced COLA increases on pension or SS for many years. It means higher deductible on medicare for wealthy seniors, higher taxes on social security payments. It means moving public employees to a defined contributions.
It means higher taxes for everybody and especially higher taxes for "rich" people. Higher fees for most everything.
It is also means lower services and not just things that aren't popular like foreign aid, or drug treatments for the chronic abusers, or subsidies for the huge agriculture business. It means reduced library hours, less music, art and special ed teachers, probably bigger class size. A smaller armed services, with weapons systems that are only a decade or so more advanced than rest of the world.
As a country we have lived beyond our means for too many decades, and it is time for some Dave Ramsey like tough love.
if there is a tax increase i would rather it be increased income tax on the high income earners. i think they could bear it better than the lower income people. and like i said above we need to cut back on the size of our government.
Any evidence of this? I haven't seen any evidence or convincing argument that those wanting to limit the scope and size of government are more violent than other factions, but I frequently see unsupported comments like the one you make. I think it's a desperate tactic.Now that the Tea Party has become involved in the Wisconsin public employee demonstrations, there is reason for worry. The "Reload don't Retreat" philosophy of some of its leaders and members could easily turn peaceful picketing into violent confrontations.
However, the majority of the military are in logistics and never see combat.
Now that the Tea Party has become involved in the Wisconsin public employee demonstrations, there is reason for worry. The "Reload don't Retreat" philosophy of some of its leaders and members could easily turn peaceful picketing into violent confrontations.
Exactly. And I repeat that teachers and other female dominated professions were singled out and police and firefighters are exempted - divide and conquer strategy.
-1.Originally Posted by nun
+1. It's inspiring to see the pictures of the WI state house full of people
standing up for their ability to negotiate their pay and benefits. Adam Smith and Marx would both be proud of them.
Lying by calling in sick, shutting down classes as a result. Taxpayers should be in control of how their money is spent, not unions. Merit, performance based pay is preferable, to me at least, than pay solely for keeping a seat warm year after year. Merit pay is incentive to perform whereas seat warming pay is disincentive. I have a hard time seeing Marxism to be held as an aspiration.
Again, the teachers union has stated they agree to the budget cuts, what they are protesting is the destruction of their collective bargaining rights.
It's largely ignored because it's not based in fact. According to Governor Walker,there are 314 fire and police unions in Wisconsin. Exactly 4 of them supported his election campaign.Another observation which has been largely ignored is that the public professions that are not having their collective bargaining rights assaulted just happen to be the ones that supported the current governor.
Do you have a source for that? I haven't seen any background on it, but maybe I missed it. I suspect that they are suddenly interested in agreement, now that other options seem strained.
-ERD50
The calling in sick while they keep claiming they are 'doing this for the children' makes me sick.
-ERD50