Not the Retirement she was looking for

[2035]

There is an army of admin assistants dying to be hired for $30000 a year. Maybe $40,000 if that figure were inflated for CA price levels.

You have no idea what admins earn or what is reasonable for an admin to earn. I'm an admin in CA and make over $70k ...which is good money but by no means a record.

 

[haha]

I think it is harder for some woman because their plan is to marry for security and it often does not happen.

A woman friend of mine says a boy goes to university to become a man, while a girl goes to get a man.

I think she is giving too much credit to the males myself.

Ha

 

[Katsmeow]

edited to add: Regarding the age discrimination issue, that may be a problem for her. However I am not sure "age discrimination" is the right term. There is an army of admin assistants dying to be hired for $30000 a year. Maybe $40,000 if that figure were inflated for CA price levels. Yes, most of these are hungry young people looking to make a buck, but if that is the going rate it can be hard to pay double the price for someone who may not be as familiar with the latest in tech and software in an office environment.

But the above does reflect some of what can be going on in age discrimination cases. That is, sometimes, there is an assumption that because someone is older -- 62 in her case -- that they aren't as familiar with the latest in tech and software.

That may certainly be the case for some people. Maybe even for most (I don't have an opinion on that). But to generalize is to stereotype based upon age. I actually do know plenty of people who are of similar age as her who are absolutely as familiar with the latest in tech and software. I know people 30 years younger than me who are less familiar than I am. But in filling jobs, all too often, potential employers may assume that the person who is over X age might be less technologically aware and might not be up to date. There is certainly nothing wrong with finding out and failing to hire if that is the case. But, I think what happens too many times, is that the person never even gets the interview and has no opportunity to show the current skills and knowledge.

 

[tmm99]

I think it is harder for some woman because their plan is to marry for security and it often does not happen.

This makes me think about something that bugs me. Some women feel somehow OK to let men support them, but some men perpetuate this notion. Maybe I shouldn't be bugged by it, because women tend to become caretakers of children. I have no problem when women stay home to take care of children while men go out and bring home the bread. What I do not undertand is that many men would tell their wives that they could quit their work when they don't have children to take care of at home. I just don't get it.

I know three men who have done just that. (I will list two examples here... One guy was in his early 50's and the other guy was in his mid-late forties.)

One man has a wife whose back was hurting and also had gone through some bad work situations and she felt a bit burned out. He told her she could just stay home for a while, so she did. (I was like, are you sure? Wouldn't you rather she worked a few more years so you could save the money and retire early or something??) Several years later, he got laid off. I know he didn't urge his wife to look for employment at that point; he felt it was his responsibility.

Another guy who had a wife who was getting paid pretty well, but she just wasn't enjoying her work. She quit her work and he was doing free lance work at night to keep up with the same spending habit. (I was like, WHY would you do that??) He said he felt the need to do this because after all, he was the man of the house... What? He is now divorced and paying alamony and the alamony will continue until she remarries.

I told both guys that we (women) would never do for them. It wouldn't even enter in our mind as a possibility. OK, I can't speak for the rest of the womankind, but well, I did to those guys.

Maybe I am just too practical (I call it sane, but that's just me). Maybe love made thos guys do what they did. But love would never (in my opinion) make women do what these men did.

 

[Katsmeow]

I have no problem when women stay home to take care of children while men go out and bring home the bread. What I do not undertand is that many men would tell their wives that they could quit their work when they don't have children to take care of at home. I just don't get it.

That's make two of us. I don't get it either. I guess part of it is just, I guess, cultural. People who grew up with non-working moms and just see it as natural for the wife to not work and don't really think about or distinguish between women with children and women without. My mom always worked -- she was an anomaly in the 1950s and 1960s -- and so it always seemed normal to me for women to work and always seemed odd when one didn't.

But, not everyone feels that way and generally feels that if the male makes enough money to support both of them there isn't anything to be gained by the wife working and they like the idea of each of them having their own sphere. I've never understood it myself but I do know many people who have been very happy with it so that works for them.

 

[Amethyst]

Wow, that sentiment is from my grandparents' generation. "A girl goes to get her MRS degree," and all that. (My grandparents were born in the 19th century, and thus were not contemporaneous with Mr. Ha :smile.

The Growing College Graduation Income Gap | RSF Review
"More women than men graduated from college in all birth cohorts since 1950. But the gap has grown recently, with the overall college graduation rate for women now ten points higher than the rate for men–32 percent compared to 22 percent."

Granted, this finding applies to women from middle and upper income families.

Amethyst

A woman friend of mine says a boy goes to university to become a man, while a girl goes to get a man.

I think she is giving too much credit to the males myself.

Ha

 

[Redbugdave]

What Katsmeow and Tmm say makes sense.


Just a quick thought or two...
I think the jobless woman could have landed in worse shape than she is. Many people have virtually nothing to rely on. It seems she just drifted around from one side of the country to the other. She may have some mental problems that we don't see from the article. I lean towards that opinion.

 

[Amethyst]

If I'd married a man who could have afforded to support me [regardless of whether I had children], and wished to do so, I certainly would have let him do it. Sounds like ER, to me!

Amethyst

This makes me think about something that bugs me. Some women feel somehow OK to let men support them, but some men perpetuate this notion. .

 

[kombat]

Maybe love made thos guys do what they did. But love would never (in my opinion) make women do what these men did.

Nor did love make those women do what those women are doing. Rather, it sounds like laziness and selfishness to me. Of course, I don't know any of the people in your stories, but with the limited information you've given, it sounds like the women are taking advantage of the men, and the men love their women far more than the women love their men.

 

[rescueme]

That's make two of us. I don't get it either. I guess part of it is just, I guess, cultural. People who grew up with non-working moms and just see it as natural for the wife to not work and don't really think about or distinguish between women with children and women without.

Uh, not really IMHO.

I always thought that a marriage was to represent the best for both, regardless of the situation driven by culture, habit, or financial need.

As for my MIL (God rest her soul), had the responsibility for keeping six people's "living standards" elevated through her "work" she did over decades, taking care of my FIL and their four childern. My FIL was fortunate to have a good manufacturing union job that allowed her to stay at home and not just "sit there", but be there for the good of the family.

As for my own mother? She was one of those "abnormal" mothers of the 50's, who worked in the factory from an early age. She had two "childern" to take care of in those days - me and my father.

I call my father a child since he acted as one (he suffered from narcissistic personality disorder, until his passing, that was actually found to be related to his own upbringing) who demanded my mother to work (even though he himself had a great job with an great income, $+20k in the 50's). However, every Friday, he expected my mother to endorse her paycheck and give it to him for his "desires" (including airplanes, cars, travel trailers, cabin cruisers, women - one of who was later to become his wife after my mother/he divorced, and many other "toys of life"). BTW, we (meaning he) was always late on paying the "normal bills" and faced our electicity being shut off more than once.

So what is "normal"? Those spouses (either sex, or these days.......).

DW stayed at home for a decade after we were married. In the beginning, since I was in the military and she did not have the possibility to get a job (even though taking the GS exams) along with getting pregenant shortly after we were married (heck, I loved her! - still do, but beyond the age of having childern )

After the birth of our (disabled) son, she stayed at home, not only to take care of him, but also to take care of me - who was busting my butt, to keep the family going (I have no regrets - that's my "job").

When our son entered a (special) school, she had the desire to work. She said that she wanted to get out a bit and communicate with other folks, after dedicating every waking moment to our son over many years.

While we certainly were not "rich" (nor on the street) at the time, I agreed to her wanting to persue her desires. However "being the man" (yeah, I know I'm going to get slammed on that comment), I did have one "requriement". While I would not have any "claim" on her income (as my father had done to my mother), I also expected her to pick up all the expenses as related to her J*b - that is clothes, car gas/maintenance (I paid for her car, and insurance) and anything related to "her job". The reason for this is that I did not want to depend on her income for any "family" or living expenses. There was always a chance that she would not maintain her employment, either due to loss of job or future "challanges" as related to our son, which she would want to stay at home and meet his needs.

As it turns out, after 40+ years of marriage, we never counted on her income to any extent to allow us a good life. Her income over the years was (and still is, in retirement) is hers to do with what she wants. Primarly it allows her to persue her passion (world-wide travel) over the years, while in addition added more than quite a bit to our joint retirement assets.

I've lived with a MIL that didn't work (but was a "success", IMHO). I lived with a mother that did work (and had nothing to show for it).

I'm not going to take sides. I'm just telling my "life story" to show that it's not a black/white situation in many cases, of what is the norm, regardless of age...

 

[Moemg]

I think it is harder for some woman because their plan is to marry for security and it often does not happen.

I also do not get this attitude but I have met many women who have it . Even now there are lots of women in Florida who are still looking for their means to be elevated through mating .

 

[DangerMouse]

This makes me think about something that bugs me. Some women feel somehow OK to let men support them, but some men perpetuate this notion. Maybe I shouldn't be bugged by it, because women tend to become caretakers of children. I have no problem when women stay home to take care of children while men go out and bring home the bread. What I do not undertand is that many men would tell their wives that they could quit their work when they don't have children to take care of at home. I just don't get it.

Ok I'll play. For most of our married lives I have not worked and we do not have children. It has not always been about choice, work permits etc have played into it.

However, in our household we see marriage as a partnership. Just because one of us goes to work and earns the money, that does not mean that person is successful due entirey to his own efforts. We are a team working towards a common goal. My husband has worked long hours for many years and believe me he has not interest in coming home and washing his clothes, cooking his meals and paying the bills. We found when we both worked there were arguments over cleaning the house so eventually we outsourced that. Then groceries were bought and wasted and eating out became the norm because after a long day at work, yep I was working 10+ hours per day I didn't have the energy to cook. Don't forget the paperwork that had to be done. Add in that due to DH's income, when I worked over 40% was immediately lost in taxes and social security it came down to was it not best for me to just stay home.

One thing we worked out a long time ago is everything in life is not just about money. If that is your primary focus I actually feel sorry for you. I think it is far more important to find the balance between earning money and keeping it.

 

[rescueme]

I also do not get this attitude but I have met many women who have it . Even now there are lots of women in Florida who are still looking for their means to be elevated through mating .

U R commenting to yourself?

Sorry, but your response was from a quote that you made (forgive me, I'm just a guy..)

 

[rescueme]

One thing we worked out a long time ago is everything in life is not just about money. If that is your primary focus I actually feel sorry for you. I think it is far more important to find the balance between earning money and keeping it.

By my previous post, you can understand that I completly agree with you.

OTOH, life would surely be dull if we all had to follow the same "script", regardless of the pain of our own path, as written ...

 

[Sarah in SC]

One thing we worked out a long time ago is everything in life is not just about money. If that is your primary focus I actually feel sorry for you. I think it is far more important to find the balance between earning money and keeping it.

I've taken a few breaks over the years and your post explains why I am encouraging DH to quit ahead of me. Not that I want to eat his cooking, but I would love for him to have more time for enjoyable pursuits as well as the stuff only he can do around the house/boat/RV etc. Wise that the both of you figured out it isn't always about money.

 

[haha]

If I'd married a man who could have afforded to support me [regardless of whether I had children], and wished to do so, I certainly would have let him do it. Sounds like ER, to me!

Amethyst

It pretty much shows that your opinion about how self-reliant women are is mostly window dressing- not for you personally, but it is still alive in the culture. Women work mainly out of economic necessity. No economic necessity, many will quit. And come divorce at whoever's instigation, unless an unusual event happens, the woman can still go on not working while the now ex-husband continues to support her, and get absolutely nothing of any value from this.

Ha

 

[Amethyst]

And probably a few men with the same idea...in fact, I know of one...long-ago SO, with well-preserved good looks, and perpetual money issues.

Hey, however you get to ER is fine, as long as it's not hurting anybody!

Amethyst

I also do not get this attitude but I have met many women who have it . Even now there are lots of women in Florida who are still looking for their means to be elevated through mating .

 

[Amethyst]

What opinion? I don't understand. I don't make choices for other women. As long as what they do isn't hurting anybody, I don't care what they do to get through life.

A.

It pretty much shows that your opinion about how self-reliant women are is mostly window dressing- not for you personally, but it is still alive in the culture.

Ha

 

[haha]

What opinion? I don't understand. I don't make choices for other women. As long as what they do isn't hurting anybody, I don't care what they do to get through life.

A.

Your post about grandparents' generation.

Every group exists in a fog of misrepresentation and spin. Women as a group do an exceptionally good job of that.

Ha

 

[rescueme]

...I would love for him to have more time for enjoyable pursuits....

I hope he appreicates you. If not, you have my permission to kick him on the side of his head ...

 

[Sarah in SC]

I hope he appreicates you. If not, you have my permission to kick him on the side of his head ...

he knows where his bread is buttered!

 

[Amethyst]

Oh, the one about old/dead people thinking most women go to college just to get married? Hardly the way to marry rich, I'd say. At least based on the college men I knew! None of 'em had a bean

A.

Your post about grandparents' generation.

Every group exists in a fog of misrepresentation and spin. Women as a group do an exceptionally good job of that.

Ha

 

[haha]

Oh, the one about old/dead people thinking most women go to college just to get married? Hardly the way to marry rich, I'd say. At least based on the college men I knew! None of 'em had a bean

A.

True perhaps, but for example very few new MDs have any trouble getting women, when they might not have been able to get a phone conversation with one in their pre-MD days. I have always counseled those of my nieces who are good looking but not exactly go-getters to spend their youthful beauty wisely- ie. on one of the many guys 10 -15 years older who have plenty money and appreciate a young, pretty woman.

But generally, they think I am kidding. Like most young women today, they spend a lot of time on young "good looking" or cool men who have no money, no intention of getting married, and plenty of other girls to date should some female insist on some security.

Ha

 

[antmary]

Time to chime in...partially, from a child's point of view. I experienced profound emotional and spiritual support from being able to come home from school and have Mom or Grandma there. I remember them braiding my hair for school, ironing my clothes, fixing my lunch every single day - or giving me lunch money or milk money. I remember Grandma rubbing my back until I fell asleep when I was five years old. I remember Mom caring for my skinned knees, and she was always there to referee fights between my siblings and me. Those memories are priceless. They have nothing to do with money, but they certainly fed into the strengths I have today.

I believe that the archetypal feminine has, in our culture, been devalued - and, in other cultures as well. There is nothing that can take place of a functional mother. Men friends have told me that when soldiers die on the battlefield, they don't call out for "Dad," but rather, "Mom!"

That is not to say that I was only a stay-at-home Mom. During the years I have gone to school, worked, saved, worked in a professional field - and now my DH & I have a nice retirement partially due to my efforts. Plus, I was able to bandage our son's knee when he fell down - and give lots of love to my children in general.

I have found that there is a lot more that meets the eye in any story we hear about via popular media. Anyway, my $.02....

 

[Amethyst]

That is because a 20-year-old woman thinks a 35-year-old man is ancient, and a 40-year-old man is worm food. Naturally, her perspective changes as she ages.

It is sad to see the 40-year-old guys trying to flirt with the pretty newly-hired women at work. You can almost hear the women saying to themselves, "This is a workplace, so I have to be nice; he's not actually harassing me, so I can't report him...but oh, how I WISH he'd go away!"

(Not that your advice is bad; it isn't; youthful beauty does indeed carry a depreciating value).

Amethyst

True perhaps, but for example very few new MDs have any trouble getting women, when they might not have been able to get a phone conversation with one in their pre-MD days. I have always counseled my nieces who are good looking but not exactly go-getters to spend their youthful beauty wisely- ie. on one of the many guys 10 -15 years older who have plenty money and appreciate a young, pretty woman.

But generally, they think I am kidding. Like most young women today, they spend a lot of time on young "good looking" or cool men who have no money, no intention of getting married, and plenty of other girls to date should some female insist on some security.

Ha