More on the Tesla electric car

[Lazarus]

From the Tesla website
Model S Facts | Tesla Motors

They confirm that the battery can be destroyed if left uncharged for a period of time. They don't say how long.

Tesla recommends plugging your Model S in each night or when convenient to maintain optimum driving range and battery health. If you go on an extended vacation, plug in your Model S and set it to “Storage Mode” before you leave.
If you leave your Tesla off charge for a significant period of time it will slowly lose its charge. If left at a 0% state of charge for period of time, you may need a battery replacement.
You do not need to run your battery to a 0% state of charge to maintain its health. This is an antiquated practice for a different kind of battery.


Found another article responding to the one about the batteries being bricked. Goes into detail about how the model S is protected from it. Looks like it would be difficult to cause it to happen unless you really worked at it. Many months setting as you said.


Tesla: You can't 'brick' Model S batteries | Cutting Edge - CNET News

 

[Zathras]

I somewhat disagree on the charging time comment (unless I am misinformed on this - then please set me straight)...

Tesla is setting up a supercharger network across the country. Currently there are 6 in California and the next one/couple are going up in the next month. I believe the next one/couple are set between NYC and Boston?

Superchargers will allow a 85kwh Model S to charge halfway in 30 minutes. I believe a full charge can be had in about 75 minutes.

Charging for us has basically become an overnight thing. We drive 50-150 miles each day and charge overnight. So charging infrastructure for our case really is unnecessary. I know that thee are people that frequently drive further. I also know there are other people that drive less.
How many there are of each will be a big factor.

Regarding the environment, take it completely out of the picture. I would own a Model S even with no consideration of the environment. It is amazing how phenomenal a car can be when not bogged down by an ICE.

 

[ERD50]

Are you intentionally trying to mislead people?
Yes, you could drain the battery in a Tesla Roadster to the point of damaging it if you drained the battery 100% by letting it sit for months without charging. ...

If the quote from the article is correct (bold mine):

But there’s also a warning that a car left to sit for more than two weeks should be plugged into Tesla’s $2,000 special charger. A car low on power could also be done in by a power cord that comes unplugged, a circuit breaker or ground fault interrupter that trips, or a long extension cord that can’t handle the current flow. It’s one more thing to worry about if you leave for an extended trip

These are edge cases, but not that uncommon, and I think a valid concern when $40,000 is at stake.

Drive to the airport, upon arrival battery is near empty, and you are going to be gone for a month. Ooops!

Spend a month at your vacation home away from the car - charger trips... Ooops!

If it is such a rare, rare occurrence, then Tesla should cover it (unless it was clear the owner just ignored any warnings to correct the situation and that it was under his control). Could he call Tesla, and say "Hey, I'm out of the country, can you go check the charger - I can't".

This isn't going to fly for the mass market. A kid goes away to school, the car sits for months. Instead of a jump, you have a major bill? It's not an insignificant problem.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Tesla is setting up a supercharger network across the country. Currently there are 6 in California and the next one/couple are going up in the next month. I believe the next one/couple are set between NYC and Boston?

Superchargers will allow a 85kwh Model S to charge halfway in 30 minutes. I believe a full charge can be had in about 75 minutes. ...

I wouldn't put that in the 'new technology' category that was pushed forward by EVs. It's an application of existing technology - just a big, fat power supply. My laptop, phone and other devices charge to 50% in 30 minutes - old hat. Just scale it up with a high power source.

-ERD50

 

[Chuckanut]

For our family, it is our primary car. In the last 6 weeks about 85% of both m wife and my driving miles has been in the Model S. the most we have put on it in a single day has been about 130 miles (this is not in the base model). It very well could be our only car if push came to shove

I would enjoy hearing more about your experiences with the Model S if you care to take to the time. What you like about it? What could be changed? How about the service? I hear you get a representative who works with the owner on service and any problems the owner may have. If so, what do you think of it?

 

[Zathras]

If the quote from the article is correct (bold mine):



These are edge cases, but not that uncommon, and I think a valid concern when $40,000 is at stake.

Isn't the definition of an 'edge' case an uncommon one?

That said, you inferred conclusions from the article which are not accurate. I don't blame you for this as they are reasonable inferences from what and how they wrote their article. I place the blame with the article for misleading its readers.

First, the recommendation from Tesla is to always have the car plugged in when not in use. However, there is no need for a "special 2000 charger", which is good, as no such animal exists right now
You can plug into a standard 110 outlet, a standard 220volt outlet, J1772 public charger or a supercharger, or Tesla's $1200 home high capacity charger (220 volt 60-70amps I think). Adapters that come with the Model S are the J1772, NEMA 14-50 (pretty standard at RV parks and some truck stops), and standard 110 volt plugs. Others are available.

The Model S can last a year without power and be recharged. It is much more robust. So where the article starts out mentioning "Let your Tesla battery..." it really should be clear up front they are talking about the Roadster, not the Model S.

The article seems at least poorly written and at worst, very slanted anti-Tesla.

Drive to the airport, upon arrival battery is near empty, and you are going to be gone for a month. Ooops!

Not an issue for the Model S

Spend a month at your vacation home away from the car - charger trips... Ooops!

Not an issue for the Model S nor the Roadster

If it is such a rare, rare occurrence, then Tesla should cover it (unless it was clear the owner just ignored any warnings to correct the situation and that it was under his control).

It was very clear in each of the 2 confirmed bricking issues of Roadsters (they never found the others). Once left the car unplugged and stored at a house under renovations, the other shipped it overseas, thought it couldn't be charged there, and shipped it back. Neither took steps to have the car trickle charged or charged in 'storage' mode. Both ignored the warnings and instructions in the owners manual and service statements to do so.

Could he call Tesla, and say "Hey, I'm out of the country, can you go check the charger - I can't".

Not only can they, Tesla will automatically send you an email, text or phone call if your Roadster or Model S is approaching dangerous levels.
I believe this may not have been present on the first gen roadster, or may have been off by default and the owners never turned it on. But that is just a guess.

This isn't going to fly for the mass market. A kid goes away to school, the car sits for months. Instead of a jump, you have a major bill? It's not an insignificant problem.

-ERD50

You are correct that if people get incorrect information from poorly written articles that will hurt mass market adoption. Tesla's job here is to do their best to get the correct information out there as well as make improvements when possible (as they did with the Model S battery system over the Roadster).

 

[Peter]

Zathras, I admire your patience!

 

[Lazarus]

There will never be mass market adoption for a 57K car. I honestly wouldn't buy an electric car for 15K. Too limited in range. I doubt the battery will last the life of the car either. The Tesla warranty is 8 years so it should last that long anyway. At some point you get to buy a new battery pack no matter what.

I object to the Federal Tax credit that the electric cars are getting also. I don't think the government needs to subsidize buyers of 57K cars at taxpayer expense.

 

[eridanus]

I doubt the battery will last the life of the car either. The Tesla warranty is 8 years so it should last that long anyway. At some point you get to buy a new battery pack no matter what.

Eh? Why do you doubt it? Most Prius batteries are still going strong, even 10 years in. Why would the Tesla battery die before 8?

I object to the Federal Tax credit that the electric cars are getting also. I don't think the government needs to subsidize buyers of 57K cars at taxpayer expense.

True enough. Of course, the feds subsidize large SUVs, too. How about we advocate getting rid of both instead of singling out one or the other?

 

[Zathras]

I would enjoy hearing more about your experiences with the Model S if you care to take to the time. What you like about it? What could be changed? How about the service? I hear you get a representative who works with the owner on service and any problems the owner may have. If so, what do you think of it?

I would be happy to.
If the mods think this should go somewhere else please feel free to move it or let me know how to, but it does seem to be on topic

We are are two car household with an attached garage (insulated but not heated).
I LOVE how smooth, and quite the car is. The torque is instantly available and is very linear. It feels as it accelerates from 40-65 as quickly as it does from 0-25 or 15-40.
While performance isn't my primary concern, I do enjoy the performance the vehicle offers. 0-60 time is 5.6 seconds. Performance version is 4.4s.

The center of mass is incredibly low for a sedan. With the battery pack in a skateboard design along the bottom of the car, the handling is increadibly solid. I tried taking a cloverleaf at 40 and had no difficulty. The car stayed very solidly grounded. I could try faster but I don't think my nerves would take it

It is a hatchback design that seats 5+2 (2 optional rear facing jump seats appropriate for kids only). The spot in the middle of the back seat is acutally usable as there is no 'transmition tunnel' down the middle of the car. Floor is flat so you have more room.

Storage between the hatchback and the trunk under the front hood is about 30 cubic feet.

Interior is very clean in appearance. Modern/contemporary you might say. If you like lots of buttons, you won't like the Model S Steering wheel controls are available and can be modified in a limited way. Right steering wheel control dial can be set to control temperature, media source or one other item which I can't remember at the moment.

Things Tesla can improve on:

I would like to see them add an optional center console solution. My wife loves the large open area between the front seats. I like it, but would also like to see some 'covered' storage solution for iPods, spare change, etc. Using the open space is very convenient for my wife's large purse or my bookbag.
Better placed cupholders and cupholders for the back would be nice.
I have heard that Tesla is working on both of these options now, but I have yet to see them.

Controls for charging needs the capability to set a time to start (or end) the charge. This is very important for people that have time of use metering.

Adaptive cruise control would be nice. I don't care about this so much for myself. But it is something most all of their competition has and they are missing.

I wouldn't mind a smaller car, but that really isn't in the realm of things they could do differently with this model. It really becomes a new model. I am looking forward to their next generation sedan in 2-4 years which is supposed to be a smaller, more economical version.

Service:
Service is outstanding! This is based on my service experience with the Roadster in the last couple of years. The only 'service' experience with the Model S so far is when their delivery specialist came up to give us our introductory tour. He spent a couple hours with us showing us different aspects of the car, chatting about Tesla, Space X and going for a couple of test drives.
Service has always been friendly, extremely knowledgable, and prompt. For brake/alignment/wheel service I would take it to a local shop. For Tesla specific work (battery/drivetrain etc) one of the Tesla Rangers would come up from Chicago and do what work they needed to in my garage or driveway.

I have always called the service manager at the Chicago service center for any issues. All Model S deliveries have been given a Delivery Specialist to work with to arrange time and place of delivery (ours was delivered to our house, some people have them delivered to work). Some have picked up the car at the factory in California and gotten a factory tour. I know one couple that flew out to California to pick up their car at the factory and drove it back to Maine (it was a vacation trip, took 8-10 days I think, you certainly couldn't do it if you were in a rush).

If you have any questions feel free to ask. If you are in MN or western WisconsinI would be happy to give you a close up look

 

[Zathras]

There will never be mass market adoption for a 57K car. ...

Hmmm, has the mass morket adopted BMWs or the Mercedes E series? If your answer is no, then I would agree and state that the Model S never will either. Tesla is targetting about 20k per year. That very well may not be mass market. It is enough for them to make money on the Model S though.

I object to the Federal Tax credit that the electric cars are getting also. I don't think the government needs to subsidize buyers of 57K cars at taxpayer expense.

I do too!
I also object to many other subsidies/tax breaks. Including the SUV ones Erindus mentioned. And the gasoline subsidies/tax breaks and ethanol subsidies.

Because I disagree with them doesn't mean I am going to stop buying gasoline (I still buy a tiny amount for our second car), or an SUV if it is the best vehicle for my needs, nor an EV if it is the best vehicle for my needs.

 

[Zathras]

Zathras, I admire your patience!

Thank you Peter I have no problem with people that don't like the idea of EVs. I just want to make sure they have the correct information to base their opinion on.

 

[ERD50]

Thanks for filling in some of the missing info in the article - it is shameful what passes for journalism these days.

Now, this will be a mess w/o the embedded quotes, but....

Isn't the definition of an 'edge' case an uncommon one?

I said, not that uncommon. IOW, it isn't like the planets aligning while I stand on one foot and recite the alphabet backwards - we can envision these things happening to someone.

First, the recommendation from Tesla is to always have the car plugged in when not in use. However, there is no need for a "special 2000 charger", which is good, as no such animal exists right now
You can plug into a standard 110 outlet, a standard 220volt outlet,

Right, it seemed odd to me that they called out a special charger - all that would be needed is a trickle, and any charger would do that. That still doesn't change it much - parking for an extended time (I didn't even think about shipping the car) means you need power available. That can be a problem.

While it sounds like they improved this on newer models, the question will be what about future, cheaper cars? Is there cost associated with a more robust battery?

I'm not trying to blow this out of proportion, but yes, I do think it is an issue for mass adoption. Cars do get left parked for extended periods, it happens for all sorts of reasons, and sometimes unplanned. Many urban types might not have power at their extended parking space. And it's not a small deal considering the cost of batteries.

FYI, I neither like nor dislike EVs (well, actually, I like the concept, the reality doesn't meet my needs at this time - mainly range and cost). I've discussed before not liking the subsidies and that I feel they are counter-productive, no reason to re-hash that. But we should get good info out there, and first on my list is that "zero pollution" association that EVs have.

-ERD50

 

[Nords]

There will never be mass market adoption for a 57K car. I honestly wouldn't buy an electric car for 15K. Too limited in range. I doubt the battery will last the life of the car either. The Tesla warranty is 8 years so it should last that long anyway. At some point you get to buy a new battery pack no matter what.

Do you happen to have even one credible link to back up any of those assertions?

 

[Texas Proud]

Eh? Why do you doubt it? Most Prius batteries are still going strong, even 10 years in. Why would the Tesla battery die before 8?



True enough. Of course, the feds subsidize large SUVs, too. How about we advocate getting rid of both instead of singling out one or the other?

What is this susidy of large SUVs you speak of And how much

But I agree that if there is one, I would want to get rid of it also.

 

[eridanus]

What is this susidy of large SUVs you speak of And how much

But I agree that if there is one, I would want to get rid of it also.

It's the Section 179 subsidy for large SUVs (>3 tons) for business purposes.

Here's how you can benefit:
Passport BMW | New BMW dealership in Marlow Heights, MD 20746

It used to be an immediate $100,000 tax write-off, aka the Hummer loophole, but it's now just $25,000 + the bonus.

 

[Lazarus]

Sure:

There will never be mass market adoption for a 57K car.

Buying A New Car

The average price of a new car sold in the United States is $28,400

Of course some people will spend 50 to 100K but not most people.
------------------------------------------
Too limited in range.

Model S Features | Tesla Motors

Max range with the large battery is 300 miles.

-------------------------------------------------------

I doubt the battery will last the life of the car either. The Tesla warranty is 8 years so it should last that long anyway. At some point you get to buy a new battery pack no matter what.

Model S | Frequently Asked Questions | Tesla Motors

How many years will the battery last?
Based on testing, Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles.

If 8 years is the lifespan of the car I guess you are ok. But your range will be down to about 200 miles according to Tesla.

-------------------------------------------

I object to the Federal Tax credit that the electric cars are getting also. I don't think the government needs to subsidize buyers of 57K cars at taxpayer expense.

Just to be clear I object to the other subsidies mentioned also. But we are talking about electric cars here not listing all the possible things that are subsidized.
--------------------------------------------------------

I am not for or against electric cars. I just don't think they are a good value.

 

[Chuckanut]

<snip> For Tesla specific work (battery/drivetrain etc) one of the Tesla Rangers would come up from Chicago and do what work they needed to in my garage or driveway.<snip>

Oh! This is just wonderful! Does the Tesla Ranger who helps you out wear a mask by any chance? Does he drive a white roadster named Silver? This is wonderful marketing!!!

Tonto (after all the other [-]Tesla[/-] Texas Rangers had been murdered): You are alone now. Last man. You are lone ranger.

 

[Texas Proud]

It's the Section 179 subsidy for large SUVs (>3 tons) for business purposes.

Here's how you can benefit:
Passport BMW | New BMW dealership in Marlow Heights, MD 20746

It used to be an immediate $100,000 tax write-off, aka the Hummer loophole, but it's now just $25,000 + the bonus.

Not even close to the same thing is it

First, you have to use it for business... second, all it does is accelerate depreciation... depreciation that would have been taken anyhow....

I can see how one could see this as subsidizing SUVs, but I do not...


I do agree that the corn subsidy is a lot worse than this car subsidy.... if I were able to get rid of one and not the other, it would be that... (heck, probably all farm subsidies, but that should be in another thread which would be closed quickly)....

 

[eridanus]

Not even close to the same thing is it

First, you have to use it for business... second, all it does is accelerate depreciation... depreciation that would have been taken anyhow....

I can see how one could see this as subsidizing SUVs, but I do not...


I do agree that the corn subsidy is a lot worse than this car subsidy.... if I were able to get rid of one and not the other, it would be that... (heck, probably all farm subsidies, but that should be in another thread which would be closed quickly)....

Of course it's the same. If it wasn't a subsidy that benefits wealthy small business owners (e.g., doctors), why would it be advertised on a BMW website? Why would it be a Forbes article?

How To Take A 100% Tax Write-Off For A New Porsche, BMW or Cadillac - Forbes

It's a benefit for large SUVs because it's for vehicles (tractors and work vans, originally) that have a gross weight over 6000 pounds. A CRV won't work; an X9 will. A Cayenne will work; a RAV4 won't. In fact, a regular car can only take ~$11,000 of depreciation the first year.

As for the accelerated depreciation, this is obvious. Taking $46,000 from income in one year is a LOT better than taking $46,000 over several years. Not only is there the opportunity cost of the money saved now but there's also the potential marginal tax rate decrease. I always prefer the immediate Section 179 deduction vs. taking a little off each year -- and, apparently, so do most other small business owners.


As for subsidies, the big whale is the mortgage deduction. A phase-out of that subsidy would go a long way to balancing the budget.

 

[ERD50]

Of course it's the same.

Lots of difference.

As I understand it - any vehicle used 100% for business can be 100% written off. Yes, you have to depreciate it, and this law allows for immediate deduction, and that is clearly a benefit.

But getting to accelerate a benefit you were going to get anyway is very different from getting a benefit that you were not going to get.

-ERD50

 

[eridanus]

But getting to accelerate a benefit you were going to get anyway is very different from getting a benefit that you were not going to get.

Then...let's get rid of it. No more super-special immediate deprecation for >6000 pound SUVs because, obviously, that's an oft-ignored and never used part of the Section 179 regulations that benefits no one. Right?

I think this is a case of my subsidy is a sacred cow and yours can go on the chopping block.

 

[Texas Proud]

Then...let's get rid of it. No more super-special immediate deprecation for >6000 pound SUVs because, obviously, that's an oft-ignored and never used part of the Section 179 regulations that benefits no one. Right?

I think this is this a case of my subsidy is a sacred cow and yours can go on the chopping block.

I would never buy that big SUV unless I needed it... deductions are not anywhere near as good as a direct check or a credit... I do not think any of the other posters take it either....


But, IMO if anybody takes that 179 deduction they are not thinking properly.... I assume that most that use it will be making over $250K... and it is very likely that their tax rate will go up next year.... I would rather have a deduction NEXT year than this year if I were in that tax bracket....

 

[ERD50]

Then...let's get rid of it. No more super-special immediate deprecation for >6000 pound SUVs because, obviously, that's an oft-ignored and never used part of the Section 179 regulations that benefits no one. Right?

I think this is this a case of my subsidy is a sacred cow and yours can go on the chopping block.

?

Where did I defend any subsidy? I simply explained the difference between acceleration of a deduction you would get anyway, and a straight tax deduction unrelated to existing deductions. Take 'em all away as far as I'm concerned - even the 'mortgage subsidy'* - though in return I ask for real overall tax reform/simplification.

Further, I think the EV subsidy is counter-productive. If you favor EVs, you should be against it too.

* Actually, I'm not so sure the mortgage deduction really is a 'subsidy'. If I rent, the owner deducts interest as a business expense, and in a competitive market, the owner's costs affect what they need to charge for rent. So lower costs translate to lower rents - the renters get this advantage. So maybe the deduction for home-owners just levels the field? But go ahead - phase it out, fine with me.

-ERD50

 

[eridanus]

I would never buy that big SUV unless I needed it... deductions are not anywhere near as good as a direct check or a credit... I do not think any of the other posters take it either....


But, IMO if anybody takes that 179 deduction they are not thinking properly.... I assume that most that use it will be making over $250K... and it is very likely that their tax rate will go up next year.... I would rather have a deduction NEXT year than this year if I were in that tax bracket....

Shrug. Then let's get rid of it. *Poof* Subsidy gone.