What a Moral Dilemma

[BTravlin]

Not too long ago, I was overpaid exactly $2,000 when I cashed out at one of the casinos I frequent. I did consider what to do for a few seconds.

And you chose what course of action?

 

[Midpack]

Your last sentence says a lot... and it is kinda the point... everybody 'steals'... period...

Way back when you were young.... did you copy songs from your friends records to your cassette player theft.... or from the radio... theft... Did you ever pay for a movie and it was crap, so you went to watch another.... or stay and watch a second... theft.... get home from the store and find something in your bag that you did not buy.... theft... take extra ketchup or mustard from the fast food place knowing you were not going to use it.... theft... find a pen in your pocket that you did not buy... theft... find out that you got extra change after you get home... etc. etc. etc.....

There are many more example.... but everybody will rationalize what they do as OK... it is life... 'Don't sweat the small stuff' is a good saying to abide by....

You're welcome to rationalize, but speak for yourself, not "everybody." There are plenty of people (here & elsewhere) who haven't done any of what you allege, you act like those examples are petty and routine. Just furthering your own rationalization.

 

[SteveNU]

I am faced with a dilemma today. I ordered a belt for my truck from Amazon and they sent me two of them. To send it back will most likely require an hour of my time to figure out what to do, repackage it, take it to the post office, etc. If it was an item that only cost a few $ I wouldn't even bother with it. But this is an $18 belt so I will at least check to see what their policy is and figure out what to do from there.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

 

[athena53]

If you're likely to need another one in the next year or two, could you just ask them to bill you for the second one?

 

[ivinsfan]

+2. Taking something without paying (full, correct price) for it is stealing, there's no rationalizing. Blaming a cheap scanner is a lame and convenient excuse, especially since the misread is more likely due to a hard to read bar code (packaging), or the customer, not the scanner. You're stealing not only from employees, but all other honest customers...

Now your rationalizing,our local store has lots of "self-check" very few staffed registers and no long has the 10 items or less registers at all.

They also do not have customers loyalty cards, but do have "masses" of self printed coupons they use every week. These coupons Do NOT scan properly on the self-serve machines, I don't know why but they don't. This always causes a lines at the self-serves because everyone needs some coupon help. The last time I waited and go to a machine and NOTHING would scan,,I wait for the cashier and she says to me."We've been having trouble with this machine all day!" Oh, you can't use an out of order sign or have someone fix it?

I accept I have to bag and handle all my own groceries, I accept that when I have coupons I need a full service register.But, I don't accept that it's okay for the stores to use the customers for unpaid labor. Does this mean the store are "stealing" our time? I say yes because the amount of full service registers open gets smaller every time I go through the store. There have to be a least 5 people in line before they open a new one. I can't tell you the number of time I use "Full Service" and have a pricing problem, the clerk is supposed to double check the price and enter the "UPC" code in a log for correction on the computer, they actually do this about 10% of the time. I guess they are stealing from the other customers who are busy and don't notice the pricing error. I would walk my business to another store, but I am very rural and have limited choices. What's next we have to go to the storeroom and collect our food ourselves.

The retail industry is getting less consumer friendly every day.

 

[ERD50]

.... I would walk my business to another store, but I am very rural and have limited choices. ....

The retail industry is getting less consumer friendly every day.

Well, that is generally what happens when there is limited competition. Service goes down, prices go up, etc.

I bet there are some other things that for you, justify living in an area with limited competition. You need to take the bad with the good. It doesn't justify stealing from them - you either accept their business practices, or shop elsewhere. And you are accepting them.

-ERD50

 

[redduck]

This thread is getting a bit ridiculous. We are talking about a sub $1 item that doesn't scan correctly after several tries and the shopper not wanting to wait for the overworked self serve cashier who is helping 3 other people with their broken scanners.

First of all, its more trouble than its worth for the customer or the store.

I don't think the thread is getting ridiculous and I'm not sure that we are simply talking about a sub $1 item. Anyhow, it seems that you've made up your own rules about what you are entitled to--and why you are entitled to them. How about having six sub $1 items that don't scan? Do you take them all? How about the $1.25 item that doesn't scan?

Anyhow, the store eventually will need to take some action against a person whom is a repeat offender. Otherwise, word gets out that customers can get away not paying for items if they go through the self-check aisle.

 

[ivinsfan]

Well, that is generally what happens when there is limited competition. Service goes down, prices go up, etc.

I bet there are some other things that for you, justify living in an area with limited competition. You need to take the bad with the good. It doesn't justify stealing from them - you either accept their business practices, or shop elsewhere. And you are accepting them.

-ERD50

Oh no , I disagree, this store has multi-state locations and all operate the same way. Service is service and if something doesn't work, should I just say no problem. They keep opening new branches and using the same business model. ABTW I never said I stole from them, I said they make money off the customer in any way they can. They don't seem to give a hoot about customer service or making sure their registers are continually updated with the current prices, so I ask, by your definition are they stealing from me.This is not a Mom and Pop operation. Is the onus always on the customer to "do the right thing?"

 

[samclem]

If you're likely to need another one in the next year or two, could you just ask them to bill you for the second one?

I'd probably ask them if they want it back, and if so, send me a prepaid envelope that I can just put in my mailbox. If they won't do that, then I'd go as far as offering to pay them the value of the second belt >to me<. $18 belt, about 20% chance I'll need it = about $4.

I've received unsolicited books and CDs from "clubs," etc, and I don't return them.

 

[ERD50]

... so I ask, by your definition are they stealing from me.This is not a Mom and Pop operation. Is the onus always on the customer to "do the right thing?"

No they are not stealing, because you have decided to do business with them, regardless of their poor practices.

If you got home and found they short-changed you with only 11 donuts in a dozen, 7/8th pounds of sugar in a 1 pound bag, etc. that would be stealing on their part (if intentional, or at least negligence).

As I see it, they are giving you poor service, and you are accepting it by continuing to shop there.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

Is the onus always on the customer to "do the right thing?"

The onus is obviously on everyone. If the cashier is taking the easy way out and not reporting the incorrect prices, they aren't doing their jobs and somebody is getting the short end of the stick. I'd bring that up to a manager just as if I'd seen an employee drop a glass jar in an aisle and not clean it up. If the service is bad at a particular place, I'd choose to shop somewhere else--and maybe write a letter to the corporate HQ to let 'em know why. If I make the decision to go in there knowing all the problems, then I have accepted the situation for what it is. I would not take it on myself to punish them (and other shoppers) by stealing their stuff.

FWIW: Some places have laws and many stores have policies that allow customers to get a "reward" if they are overcharged for an item due to a scanned price not matching the shelf tag.

 

[ivinsfan]

I don't think the thread is getting ridiculous and I'm not sure that we are simply talking about a sub $1 item. Anyhow, it seems that you've made up your own rules about what you are entitled to--and why you are entitled to them. How about having six sub $1 items that don't scan? Do you take them all? How about the $1.25 item that doesn't scan?

Anyhow, the store eventually will need to take some action against a person whom is a repeat offender. Otherwise, word gets out that customers can get away not paying for items if they go through the self-check aisle.

The word will get out that the scanners don't work properly and how is that the customers fault . No one wants to "get away without paying" for stuff, they want a better check-out process that actually works.

 

[ivinsfan]

The onus is obviously on everyone. If the cashier is taking the easy way out and not reporting the incorrect prices, they aren't doing their jobs and somebody is getting the short end of the stick. I'd bring that up to a manager just as if I'd seen an employee drop a glass jar in an aisle and not clean it up. If the service is bad at a particular place, I'd choose to shop somewhere else--and maybe write a letter to the corporate HQ to let 'em know why. If I make the decision to go in there knowing all the problems, then I have accepted the situation for what it is. I would not take it on myself to punish them (and other shoppers) by stealing their stuff.

From what I have seen, service levels are declining everywhere, as retailers try to find out how much crap their customers will put up with. I go online whenever possible, that's my solution.

 

[ivinsfan]

No they are not stealing, because you have decided to do business with them, regardless of their poor practices.

If you got home and found they short-changed you with only 11 donuts in a dozen, 7/8th pounds of sugar in a 1 pound bag, etc. that would be stealing on their part (if intentional, or at least negligence).

As I see it, they are giving you poor service, and you are accepting it by continuing to shop there.

-ERD50

So if their "poor" practices include badly maintained scanners and not updating prices,is that okay? My point is that negligence is not an excuse for ripping people off.Some people aren't aware of the problem, so it's okay for the store to take advantage of them? And we were just blessed with an Aldi's in our small rural town. Hooray!

 

[Midpack]

Now your rationalizing (you'll have to elaborate, I simply don't follow where I am rationalizing), our local store has lots of "self-check" very few staffed registers and no long has the 10 items or less registers at all.

I accept I have to bag and handle all my own groceries, I accept that when I have coupons I need a full service register. But, I don't accept that it's okay for the stores to use the customers for unpaid labor. Does this mean the store are "stealing" our time? It's not unpaid, it's ultimately reflected in lower prices in the products/services you buy. It's laughable you'd suggest they are stealing in a voluntary exchange for goods/services. I say yes because the amount of full service registers open gets smaller every time I go through the store. There have to be a least 5 people in line before they open a new one. I can't tell you the number of time I use "Full Service" and have a pricing problem, the clerk is supposed to double check the price and enter the "UPC" code in a log for correction on the computer, they actually do this about 10% of the time. I guess they are stealing from the other customers who are busy and don't notice the pricing error. I would walk my business to another store, but I am very rural and have limited choices. What's next we have to go to the storeroom and collect our food ourselves.

The retail industry is getting less consumer friendly every day. And why do you suppose that is?

With all due respect, you don't seem to understand how business works at all. And if you've ever run a business (especially retail), you'd know there's always a vocal minority who expect full service AND the lowest prices, you can't have both.

Oh no , I disagree, this store has multi-state locations and all operate the same way.

Then what multi-state store chain is it - maybe others of us have been to the same stores, we might be able to compare experiences? I use self-check everywhere it's available, because it is way faster. IME they are usually adequately staffed (they're usually waiting to serve), evidently you've found otherwise. But even if I have to summon a clerk for a problem (sure it happens once in a while), it's still faster than waiting in a full service checkout line. Sorry, but no one here is that busy, nor is their time that "valuable."

Service is service and if something doesn't work, should I just say no problem. You get what you pay for. If you want full service, it costs more. If another store offers a better value proposition, you go there. Or you complain, maybe they'll be anxious to help. Just taking merchandise, as some have suggested, is stealing. They keep opening new branches and using the same business model. ABTW I never said I stole from them, I said they make money off the customer in any way they can. They provide products/services in exchange for your money, and have be profitable to stay in business. They don't seem to give a hoot about customer service you can thank your fellow customers if not yourself ** or making sure their registers are continually updated with the current prices, so I ask, by your definition are they stealing from me. This is not a Mom and Pop operation. Is the onus always on the customer to "do the right thing?" If you care about looking at yourself in the mirror, you do the right thing regardless of what someone else does. Doing the right thing is not a negotiation depending on how others conduct themselves, that's lowest common denominator thinking.

** Merchants haven't arbitrarily decided to degrade customer service, they are responding to what their customers demand. Enough customers value low prices over service, so merchants have to strive to reduce costs wherever they can to stay in business. We have collectively chosen somewhat degraded service ourselves. If you don't think it's true, remember how we evolved from full service gas stations to nothing but self serve (except in a few states). For a period, many stations offered full service or self serve, almost no one was willing to pay even pennies more per gallon. Full service disappeared very quickly, thanks to customers.

If you REALLY don't like the new model that most customers have/are choosing, you can go elsewhere. You chose where you live and the (limited) choices that come with it.

But I'm under no illusion that I'll change your mind in any way...

 

[ivinsfan]

With all due respect, you don't seem to understand how business works at all. You can't expect the lowest prices and full service.

Then what store chain is it - maybe others of us have been to the same stores? I use self-check everywhere it's available, because it is way faster. IME they are usually adequately staffed, evidently you've found otherwise. But even if I have to summon a clerk for a problem (sure it happens once in a while), it's still faster than waiting in a full service checkout line.



** Merchants haven't arbitrarily decided to degrade customer service, they are responding to what their customers demand. Enough customers value low prices over service, so merchants have to strive to reduce costs wherever they can to stay in business. We have collectively chosen somewhat degraded service ourselves. If you don't think it's true, remember how we evolved from full service gas stations to nothing but self serve (except in a few states). For a period, many stations offered full service or self serve, almost no one was willing to pay even pennies more per gallon. Full service disappeared very quickly, thanks to customers.

If you don't like the new model that most customers have/are choosing, you can go elsewhere.

I do know how business works, as I had one of my own for 40 years. I never mentioned lowest prices, I said the advertised price.If you use self-scanners maintain them properly.
And I totally agree on the consumer aspect of the equation, it goes be careful of what you ask for,having said that I use the full service lane and check my receipt carefully before I leave the store.

I don't steal from the store or condone stealing from the store,but a customer should expect honest, fair treatment from their retailer. How does honest, fair treatment correlate with expecting your customer to watch each and every transaction making sure there is no overcharge or faulty scan.

It's fine to say go to a store with higher prices, but that doesn't change the face that store number one isn't providing fair service.

 

[Midpack]

I do know how business works, as I had one of my own for 40 years. I never mentioned lowest prices, I said the advertised price. That's beside the point, but who said you did? I was explaining why merchants have started implementing self checkout - they are lowering costs with changes like self serve checkout, in response to customers demanding lower prices. If you use self-scanners maintain them properly. Again, I'd be willing to bet faulty bar codes on packaging is a major source of scanner issues also. IME scanners read without issue at least 95% of the time. So when it won't read correctly, concluding there's something wrong with the scanner doesn't make much sense (if it's just read 19 out of 20 correctly).

And I totally agree on the consumer aspect of the equation, it goes be careful of what you ask for having said that I use the full service lane and check my receipt carefully before I leave the store. Were you also among the last customers in line for full service gas?

I don't steal from the store or condone stealing from the store, but a customer should expect honest, fair treatment from their retailer. How does honest, fair treatment correlate with expecting your customer to watch each and every transaction making sure there is no overcharge or faulty scan. See your own answer above, "be careful of what you ask for."

It's fine to say go to a store with higher prices, but that doesn't change the face that store number one isn't providing fair service. How do they stay in business without providing fair service? "Fair service" is the best product/service value proposition in your area.

Let me know if I change your mind on any of this. And still curious where I was rationalizing earlier...

 

[ivinsfan]

With all due respect, you don't seem to understand how business works at all. And if you've ever run a business (especially retail), you'd know there's always a vocal minority who expect full service AND the lowest prices, you can't have both.

Then what multi-state store chain is it - maybe others of us have been to the same stores, we might be able to compare experiences? I use self-check everywhere it's available, because it is way faster. IME they are usually adequately staffed (they're usually waiting to serve), evidently you've found otherwise. But even if I have to summon a clerk for a problem (sure it happens once in a while), it's still faster than waiting in a full service checkout line.



** Merchants haven't arbitrarily decided to degrade customer service, they are responding to what their customers demand. Enough customers value low prices over service, so merchants have to strive to reduce costs wherever they can to stay in business. We have collectively chosen somewhat degraded service ourselves. If you don't think it's true, remember how we evolved from full service gas stations to nothing but self serve (except in a few states). For a period, many stations offered full service or self serve, almost no one was willing to pay even pennies more per gallon. Full service disappeared very quickly, thanks to customers.

If you REALLY don't like the new model that most customers have/are choosing, you can go elsewhere. You chose where you live and the (limited) choices that come with it.

But I'm under no illusion that I'll change your mind in any way...

By the way, you're getting a little aggressive here, as I have clearly repeated I do not steal from the store. You seem it imply I'm at fault for the service level of the operation. I'm making comments about retailing in general and would appreciate if you would do the same. Also just because I live "in the sticks" I don't believe I deserve downgraded service.

 

[Midpack]

By the way, you're getting a little aggressive here, as I have clearly repeated I do not steal from the store. You seem it imply I'm at fault for the service level of the operation. I'm making comments about retailing in general and would appreciate if you would do the same. Also just because I live "in the sticks" I don't believe I deserve downgraded service.

Aggressive? Here's exactly what I said to you in post #65 above in context "You get what you pay for. If you want full service, it costs more. If another store offers a better value proposition, you go there. Or you complain, maybe they'll be anxious to help. Just taking merchandise, as some have suggested, is stealing." Several posters have outright said they just put merchandise in their bags when a scanner acts up. There are other far more honorable options.

Please show me where I accused you of stealing, and I will gladly apologize.

 

[utrecht]

I am faced with a dilemma today. I ordered a belt for my truck from Amazon and they sent me two of them. To send it back will most likely require an hour of my time to figure out what to do, repackage it, take it to the post office, etc. If it was an item that only cost a few $ I wouldn't even bother with it. But this is an $18 belt so I will at least check to see what their policy is and figure out what to do from there.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Early Retirement Forum mobile app

According to some people here, it should make no difference how much the belt cost. Even if it cost, $1, you should waste your time and call them to try to fix the mistake. Based on my experience with automated phones and hold times, it may take 10 mins to get thru to a person. Then another 10 mins to figure out the solution. Now you have wasted 20 mins of your time and 20 mins of the customer service persons time for as little as $1. But remember, people here say the dollar amount doesnt matter so you should go thru this exercise no matter what the cost.

Wait, now you have to actually get the belt back to them. That's gonna take more time to package it up and mail it back even if they send you a prepaid envelope.

My time is valuable. I'm not wasting that much of my time going thru the stress of dealing with phone customer service people fixing their mistake. If the item was valuable I would probably do it, but not for $18 item.

I donate plenty of money to worthy causes. I donate plenty of my time to charities, coaching baseball and other things. So it has nothing to do with being dishonest or being a bad person. This just happens to be one of those times when I refuse to put up with incompetence even if it results in what some people call dishonesty.

 

[ivinsfan]

Let me know if I change your mind on any of this. And still curious where I was rationalizing earlier...

What exactly is your point, self checkout is here to stay in many stores. I have no problem with that. I expect them to work and the prices to be correct. The options of full service and self check is here to stay.

What is your issue with these expectations and why do you continue to label me a ""problem" customer, when I keep repeating I do not steal and use full service checkout to avoid the problems with the self check.. in my local store.My local store uses self printed coupons that don't scan well.

What are you trying to change my mind about?

 

[ERD50]

... I'm making comments about retailing in general and would appreciate if you would do the same. Also just because I live "in the sticks" I don't believe I deserve downgraded service.

IMO, this statement here indicates to me that you do not know how business works, regardless of your statements to the contrary.

Competition is what drives a business to compete for customers. Living "in the sticks" (I'm not sure if that was your term or not, but not meant to be derogatory anyhow) has pros and cons, and one of the cons can be limited competition in some markets.

Maybe a business does good by their customers as a matter of pride, but you can't count on that. Competition will drive them out of business if they don't - they don't have a choice in the matter. Adapt or perish.

We have a LOT of competition in supermarkets in my area, from low end (Aldis) to the Whole Foods and their kind, and lots in between. We get fantastic service in all of them.

A while back at Trader Joes, DW was merely looking at the shelf for a product, and without even asking, a 'crew member' asked if she needed help finding something. It was not on the shelf, the guy went back to look for more, came back and said 'sorry' we are out'. No problem, we can get it next time, no rush.

Well, DW pays for the rest, is loading up the car, and this guy comes running out of the store, tracks her down, and says " Here, I did find them in the back in another spot - this is gratis".

Now, what were you saying about service levels are declining everywhere, as retailers try to find out how much crap their customers will put up with?


-ERD50

 

[Midpack]

What exactly is your point, self checkout is here to stay in many stores. I have no problem with that. I expect them to work and the prices to be correct. The options of full service and self check is here to stay.

What is your issue with these expectations and why do you continue to label me a ""problem" customer, when I keep repeating I do not steal and use full service checkout to avoid the problems with the self check.. in my local store.My local store uses self printed coupons that don't scan well.

What are you trying to change my mind about?

It may be your repeated attempts to put words in the mouths of others.

• I did not call you a problem customer,
• I (we?) did not accuse you of stealing,
• And I didn't say you brought up "lowest prices" - I was simply trying to serve up the issue from business POV in response the customer POV you posted.

You're welcome to show otherwise.

But this thread ran it's course a while ago, there are two or more camps as usual (with no chance of anyone changing their POV, like most/all forums), so you're welcome to the last word...

 

[ivinsfan]

It may be your repeated attempts to put words in the mouths of others.

• I did not call you a problem customer,
• I (we?) did not accuse you of stealing,
• And I didn't say you brought up "lowest prices" - I was simply trying to serve up the issue from business POV in response the customer POV you posted.

You're welcome to show otherwise.

But this thread ran it's course a while ago, there are two or more camps as usual (with no chance of anyone changing their POV, like most/all forums), so you're welcome to the last word...

We'll just agree to disagree here, no problem....it felt a little personal when you began highlighting my remarks and and mentioned " I could blame my fellow customers if not myself."...I probably inferred a little more into that then you intended.The remark about looking into the mirror didn't help either.. a little thin skinned I guess, gotta toughen up.

 

[ERD50]

According to some people here, it should make no difference how much the belt cost. Even if it cost, $1, you should waste your time and call them to try to fix the mistake. ...

I think there is a point where I just decide to be 'pragmatic'. If it is a very low $ amount or percentage, I might make the judgement that it isn't worth my time to try to correct the error, and it probably isn't worth their time to deal with taking the item back, or whatever.

It is a borderline case, I might contact them and ask them.

If anyone wants to say my 'pragmatism' is 'rationalization', fine, I take no offense. It's a borderline thing and people can see it differently.

BTW, I have pointed out to waiters when they missed an item on the bill, and I did call a place when I noticed the tip didn't show up on my CC statement. In the latter case, I got the impression it was kind of a hassle for the business, but I felt better, I really did not mean to 'stiff' the person, and I sure didn't want her to think I did (hair cut place).

-ERD50