Fat Fire-ees - are you out there?

[athena53]

As for overseas travel, you have to be a sadomasochist to subject yourself and your spouse to 11-14 hours in coach when you could be sleeping in a bed and enjoy fine dining.

Well, it's not necessarily "fine dining" (there are limits to what you can do within the limitations of a tiny galley) but the endless refills of fine wine help!

Unless you want to end up in a retirement home where abuse is as common as breakfast, save your money for your later years. We have visited many people in these homes over the years and they are far from happy. We can see the pain in their eyes. At some point you will need to hire staff to take care of you if you want to stay in your own home. This is what will cost real big money. The staff expenses for my in laws are running about $23K per month. They are happy in their home and that's all that matters.

I totally agree that I don't want to be at the mercy of the taxpayers when it comes to my LTC. Abuse can happen with in-home care, too, although the people I used when my husband was in his last days were wonderful (and cost well over minimum wage). I figure that in that scenario, the travel budget goes to zero, you may have gotten rid of the cars, etc. and if you do choose to go into a good LTC facility, there are no additional costs for shelter. I plan to make darn sure I don't end up old and poor.

 

[audreyh1]

If the flight attendants aren't constantly coming through waking everybody up in first class for this and that, it might be.

All my overseas flights were for work, so I've only flown red eye coach, and the constant wakey-wakey was my main complaint.

I have absolutely not experienced wake-ups from first class flight attendants unless it was time to prepare for landing.

 

[FireFool]

Reddit scares me [emoji57] never heard the term until now.

Yeah, you think your spending too much time on this forum you wouldn't believe how much time can be frittered away over there.

 

[youbet]

I totally agree that I don't want to be at the mercy of the taxpayers when it comes to my LTC.

Agree.

Here in the Chicago area, without a hard working, knowledgeable advocate, Medicaid clients can wind up in some really marginal LTC situations. My DW (with some research and legwork by myself and her siblings) managed to plan her mother's entry into LTC so that she was private pay long enough that we had a wide selection of places to chose from and so that when MIL ran out of money after about 1.5 years, she was allowed to stay on Medicaid as initially promised. It was a satisfactory place, and I know the difference after visiting a number of them. She was there about 4.5 years before passing last autumn.

OTOH, folks who enter the LTC system with few or no assets and must begin Medicaid immediately find few facilities willing to take them. Lack of a hard working, knowledgeable advocate exacerbates this. The better places often have the minimum number of Medicaid beds but those are always filled with clients who were first there as private pay and then ran out of money. The places with all or most beds filled with Medicaid folks reflect their extremely tight budgets in many ways.

So, yeah, at least in this neck of the woods it can be a dicey situation for elderly folks who find themselves without assets or good advocates and need care. The best situation is to be private pay all the way through. Second best is to be private pay for a couple of years and be in a place that allows you to transition to Medicaid and stay on.

After our experience with MIL and what we learned going through those years, we've set aside funds for LTC we won't touch prior to the need short of a true emergency. If we don't need those funds, well...... our son will be a lucky guy at inheritance time.

I'm not sure how to consider this self-insured LTC set-aside in determining whether our FIRE status is FAT or not.

 

[Freedom56]

Well, it's not necessarily "fine dining" (there are limits to what you can do within the limitations of a tiny galley) but the endless refills of fine wine help!



I totally agree that I don't want to be at the mercy of the taxpayers when it comes to my LTC. Abuse can happen with in-home care, too, although the people I used when my husband was in his last days were wonderful (and cost well over minimum wage). I figure that in that scenario, the travel budget goes to zero, you may have gotten rid of the cars, etc. and if you do choose to go into a good LTC facility, there are no additional costs for shelter. I plan to make darn sure I don't end up old and poor.

Not all business class are created equal. I have been flying business/first for over 30 years and the service has evolved over time. The minimum is a lie flat seat and expanded meal service. If you want a fine dining experience you have to fly with premium carriers such as Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Lufthansa, Swiss, Turkish Airlines, Virgin, Eva Air , Cathay Pacific etc . Flying United or Delta business class will get you a TV dinner with endless $2.80 a bottle wine. I have had some pretty incredible meals on business class. Look at Skytrax list for the best business class airlines in the world, not one domestic airline made the list . You get what you pay for.

 

[marko]

Yeah, you think your spending too much time on this forum you wouldn't believe how much time can be frittered away over there.

Your post here made me look. OMG.
I spent "only 5 minutes" looking around only to find that an hour and a half had passed!

 

[happy2bretired]

Reddit scares me [emoji57] never heard the term until now.

Me too...

 

[happy2bretired]

Your post here made me look. OMG.
I spent "only 5 minutes" looking around only to find that an hour and a half had passed!

I quit FB....now your trying to get me hooked on Reddit? Ok...I’ll tip toe..I’ll follow on Twitter for awhile, maybe.

 

[unclemick]

+1

I thought the thread was going to be about being overweight in ER.

I think it's a mental thing. After 25 years of ER, I've fat and I've been thin both financially and physically. New Orleans diet had to get modified when I hit 400 cholesterol and it's a long long time since I could brag about 12k/yr expenses in ER.

Different diet, take pills, go to the gym and post 70 1/2 my pals at the IRS love me.

heh heh heh - 1993 to 2018 has seen some ups and down life events in ER.

 

[Scuba]

I’m not super frugal like so many other LBYM people on this forum, but I’m another one who just has trouble wanting to spend the money for business or first class when I can fly premium economy or coach for thousands less. I used to fly British Airways business class and sometimes even first class, and I agree that the lie flat beds are great. However I was still tired and jet lagged when I arrived, maybe not as much, but when I think about paying $5-$10K more for air travel just to gain one day more “refreshed”, I have a hard time with that.

DH wants to start flying business or first on all international flights. He is much taller than I so that’s probably why. We are leaving for Greece in a few weeks and are flying BA coach on the way and Wow Air home from Amsterdam. Our RT tickets purchased with a combination of mileage and cash are less than $2K. We can sure have a lot of fun with the $8K+ we’re saving while we enjoy 6 weeks in Greece.

 

[marko]

However I was still tired and jet lagged when I arrived, maybe not as much, but when I think about paying $5-$10K more for air travel just to gain one day more “refreshed”, I have a hard time with that.

DH wants to start flying business or first on all international flights. He is much taller than I so that’s probably why. We are leaving for Greece in a few weeks and are flying BA coach on the way and Wow Air home from Amsterdam. Our RT tickets purchased with a combination of mileage and cash are less than $2K. We can sure have a lot of fun with the $8K+ we’re saving while we enjoy 6 weeks in Greece.

I'm quite expert on jet lag. (Boston to Shanghai and back every 20 days for 2 years at one point) Flying first doesn't help that.

For me, it's about spending 6 to 12 hours sitting in a seat that wouldn't be comfortable for 2 hours.

Please get back to us on this thread when you return and let us know how the seats were and if you might change anything.

 

[DrRoy]

It's all relative .. here's my current not-lean not-fat rough equivalent:


BUDGET Annual
AUTO FUEL 700
AUTO SERVICE 300
CLOTHES 500
DOGS / CATS 0
FOOD 5,000
DINING 2,000 [includes coffee houses]
HEALTH / BEAUTY 100
HOUSE MAINT 200 [I rent]
ENTERTAINMENT 3,000 [includes travel]
MEDICAL 1,200
LUMPY STUFF 1,000
MISC 1,000

TOT DISC 15,000

HOUSE 10,000 [includes rent]
LIFE INSURANCE 0
CELL PHONE 400
CABLE 0
ELECTRIC / GAS 150
WATER 150
INTERNET 0 [included in phone]
AUTO INS 300

TOT NON-DISC 11,000
TOTAL EXP 26,000

Holy cow. In a good year, we might spend this much just on travel (for 2). Also need ~$15K for medical ins, and another slug for taxes, both of which are not shown here.

 

[marko]

Holy cow. In a good year, we might spend this much just on travel (for 2). Also need ~$15K for medical ins, and another slug for taxes, both of which are not shown here.

Always intrigued by folks getting by comfortably on $20-$40K.
We spend that on taxes alone!

I would love to find a way to live on $30K if only to understand how it's done. (assuming we're not talking about a single-wide at the end of a logging road)

Numbers are fine but I'd like to know the mechanics of such a lifestyle. Are we talking about some small town in the boonies, 2 hours from the nearest hospital, movies and restaurants?

There are low COL areas but where I live you can't rent a garage for $10K a year let alone an apartment.

 

[Dtail]

Always intrigued by folks getting by comfortably on $20-$40K.
We spend that on taxes alone!

I would love to find a way to live on $30K if only to understand how it's done. (assuming we're not talking about a single-wide at the end of a logging road)

Numbers are fine but I'd like to know the mechanics of such a lifestyle. Are we talking about some small town in the boonies, 2 hours from the nearest hospital, movies and restaurants?

There are low COL areas but where I live you can't rent a garage for $10K a year let alone an apartment.

Yeah agree it is intriguing to find out, but a true LCOL is not on our radar, as my thoughts is we just wouldn't fit in with the culture in many of these places.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Not all business class are created equal. I have been flying business/first for over 30 years and the service has evolved over time. The minimum is a lie flat seat and expanded meal service. If you want a fine dining experience you have to fly with premium carriers such as Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Lufthansa, Swiss, Turkish Airlines, Virgin, Eva Air , Cathay Pacific etc . Flying United or Delta business class will get you a TV dinner with endless $2.80 a bottle wine. I have had some pretty incredible meals on business class. Look at Skytrax list for the best business class airlines in the world, not one domestic airline made the list . You get what you pay for.

Very true. Our first (and my only) business class trip so far was on Air France four years ago, and I still remember the lobster salad with the whole claw, and the 20 year old armagnac! Of course, that alone wouldn't be worth the higher fare, but the lie flat seats definitely were worth it...especially since the trip was paid for with miles.

I'm debating now whether to pay an extra ~$10K for three business class tickets for a trip to Africa that we're considering in 2020. It's about 20 hours there and 25 back. My biggest stumbling block is that my main LBYM strategy is to say "What could I buy with the extra money I'm spending?" For these business class tickets, it could be another really luxurious domestic trip! Or, more importantly, that could pay for SO many luxury upgrades for the trip itself.

 

[HaveEnough]

lean, fat, morbid are so difficult to quantify because of everyones different situation.

Similar to others here, we can easily do $200K/year (0 in pensions). If we pull out taxes and college for the kid our burn rate is close to $40K a year. We travel domestically in the US and plan it well. Live near Raleigh, not HCOL but not LCOL either. We have zero debt.

If ya tack on a $2000 mortgage/rent $1000 for cars and you're adding another 36K to a burn rate that we don't need to spend. So our leanFIRE is really a mid level FIRE for many folk that have debt or rent.

How much of your fatFIRE is consumed by debt/rent? Would you really need fatFIRE without the debt?

 

[Scuba]

Very true. Our first (and my only) business class trip so far was on Air France four years ago, and I still remember the lobster salad with the whole claw, and the 20 year old armagnac! Of course, that alone wouldn't be worth the higher fare, but the lie flat seats definitely were worth it...especially since the trip was paid for with miles.



I'm debating now whether to pay an extra ~$10K for three business class tickets for a trip to Africa that we're considering in 2020. It's about 20 hours there and 25 back. My biggest stumbling block is that my main LBYM strategy is to say "What could I buy with the extra money I'm spending?" For these business class tickets, it could be another really luxurious domestic trip! Or, more importantly, that could pay for SO many luxury upgrades for the trip itself.

My problem exactly! I’m ok to be uncomfortable for a day so that I can have an extra $10K to spend on nice experiences.

 

[Scuba]

lean, fat, morbid are so difficult to quantify because of everyones different situation.

Similar to others here, we can easily do $200K/year (0 in pensions). If we pull out taxes and college for the kid our burn rate is close to $40K a year. We travel domestically in the US and plan it well. Live near Raleigh, not HCOL but not LCOL either. We have zero debt.

If ya tack on a $2000 mortgage/rent $1000 for cars and you're adding another 36K to a burn rate that we don't need to spend. So our leanFIRE is really a mid level FIRE for many folk that have debt or rent.

How much of your fatFIRE is consumed by debt/rent? Would you really need fatFIRE without the debt?

Our mortgage is fixed at 3.375%. Since we make more than that from investments, we’d need more $$$ if we withdrew principal to eliminate the mortgage.

Our spending on just travel, entertainment, wine and gifts is over $60K/year. Even if we had no mortgage, healthcare, HOA dues, groceries, property taxes & insurance bring our total spending well above $100K/year.

 

[jim584672]

Always intrigued by folks getting by comfortably on $20-$40K.
We spend that on taxes alone!

I would love to find a way to live on $30K if only to understand how it's done. (assuming we're not talking about a single-wide at the end of a logging road)

Numbers are fine but I'd like to know the mechanics of such a lifestyle. Are we talking about some small town in the boonies, 2 hours from the nearest hospital, movies and restaurants?

There are low COL areas but where I live you can't rent a garage for $10K a year let alone an apartment.

My base expenses are $15K. Own your housing and car outright, get free or almost free ACA medical, watch food spending. I can't understand why people need $10k a month.

 

[corn18]

My base expenses are $15K. Own your housing and car outright, get free or almost free ACA medical, watch food spending. I can't understand why people need $10k a month.

Then you're not listening. Several posters have outlined they spend $15k on travel alone. We plan to spend $25k on travel each year. Maybe we are stupid.

 

[jim584672]

Then you're not listening. Several posters have outlined they spend $15k on travel alone. We plan to spend $25k on travel each year. Maybe we are stupid.

Not at all. What is the point of money unless it gets spent?

 

[marko]

My base expenses are $15K. Own your housing and car outright, get free or almost free ACA medical, watch food spending. I can't understand why people need $10k a month.

When almost $3k of it goes to property, fed, state and local taxes and another $1.5 goes to healthcare, $10k can go quickly

 

[W2R]

Always intrigued by folks getting by comfortably on $20-$40K.
We spend that on taxes alone!

I would love to find a way to live on $30K if only to understand how it's done. (assuming we're not talking about a single-wide at the end of a logging road)

Numbers are fine but I'd like to know the mechanics of such a lifestyle. Are we talking about some small town in the boonies, 2 hours from the nearest hospital, movies and restaurants?

There are low COL areas but where I live you can't rent a garage for $10K a year let alone an apartment.

Believe me, I understand about taxes! No matter how frugal someone is, they still have to pay taxes.

Without including income taxes (or unexpected big expenses), my projected spending for this year is $21,573. I live in a fairly urban setting in an inner New Orleans suburb, with movies and restaurants within walking distance and the best hospital around is 2 miles away. BUT - - I don't travel, and my house and car are paid off, this is not an unusually HCOL area, no boats/planes/RVs, no desire to attend expensive concerts or sporting events, and this is just for one person with no dependents.

Also, the unexpected big expenses (like dental implants or that HVAC replacement when it cratered a couple of years ago) seem to come up fairly regularly and usually seem to add $5K-$10K to the total. Whatever is going to happen this year to mess up my projected spending, just hasn't happened yet.

To repeat the often remembered quote by Robert Burns: “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft a-gley.” In other words, something always seems to add to what we actually end up spending, no matter how carefully we plan.

 

[daylatedollarshort]

Always intrigued by folks getting by comfortably on $20-$40K.
We spend that on taxes alone!

I would love to find a way to live on $30K if only to understand how it's done. (assuming we're not talking about a single-wide at the end of a logging road)

Numbers are fine but I'd like to know the mechanics of such a lifestyle. Are we talking about some small town in the boonies, 2 hours from the nearest hospital, movies and restaurants?

There are low COL areas but where I live you can't rent a garage for $10K a year let alone an apartment.

I have acquaintances (widows) who told me they had trouble spending more than $35K in the Bay Area so one said she spoils her grandchildren. At the time they both had mortgage free homes, low property taxes due to Prop 13, fixed up their houses before they retired and are on Medicare. They live in upscale urban areas. I know one of the women does travel but it is not for months at a time - more like 2 weeks a year to some foreign country with family and they use credit card rewards for air fare. So add $10K to W2Rs budget for travel, parties and fancy restaurants and that is still only $31.5K.

Talking to them was one of the factors that helped us decide to ER and stay in our current house.

 

[nwsteve]

Our approach to Biz Class versus Prem Econ is to book Prem Econ and watch for sales for an upgrade to BC, especially as departure approaches. Sometimes we can use miles but usually we have bought Prem Econ on the cheap and can not upgrade. But we have gotten some great bargains on BC upgrades for cash as departure approaches.
We currently have a trip to Australia from Vancouver in PE for 4040 RT next Feb but Cathay often has a BC sale in the late Fall. Got BC upgrades on our last trip to HKong for an additional 1k each--an acceptable prem for a 10 hr trip with lie flats. Win some, loose some ;-)
BTW,for folks with reasonable access to Canadian intl hubs check out buying in Can$ at 25% off--Exchange rates very favorable.