Thoughts on TESLA

[JoeWras]

The state and federal underground tank rules for service stations went in during the 1980 - 1990 time frame. I worked at ARCO at the time and personally registered data on about 40,000 UST's in California in 1985 (on a tape).

All the USTs had to be registered and upgraded over an approximate 10 year period to have double wall tank construction, leak detection and monitoring systems and periodic visual inspections along with periodic tank tightness testing.

You can bet that 95%+ of all USTs in the U.S. are non-leakers nowadays. So shutting down and repurposing service stations operated by "majors" is not an issue anymore.

When they went through that replacement cycle around here, they found a lot of the older stations had issues. They cleaned up what they could and still monitor a few sites for migration issues. What a mess, literally.

 

[Chuckanut]

When they went through that replacement cycle around here, they found a lot of the older stations had issues. They cleaned up what they could and still monitor a few sites for migration issues. What a mess, literally.

We have an old station near me that has been abandoned for at least a decade. Apparently, doing anything to it will result in having to cleanup the old fuel contamination that is underground. Unfortunately, the contaminating fuel has found its way to the neighboring properties. Needless to say the owners of those properties want to be thoroughly compensated for the cleanup as well as loss of use of the property for months, maybe years, depending on the cleanup method. So, nothing is happening.

 

[Midpack]

One of the obstacles is the length of time the property needs for remediation after the tanks are removed. I would see hybrids developing depending on the capacity of the local power grid.

(and their convenience stores might morph into secure drop spots for online deliveries.)

Yes, these properties will be more expensive and complicated to repurpose due to the underground tanks. At least, the pain will be spread out over time and location, so the economic impact on a community should be minimal (unlike a large plant closing). Refineries and the tanker trucks serving the corner gas stations will also be need to be repurposed or shut down over time. The electric utilities should be hiring, though.

The state and federal underground tank rules for service stations went in during the 1980 - 1990 time frame. I worked at ARCO at the time and personally registered data on about 40,000 UST's in California in 1985 (on a tape).

All the USTs had to be registered and upgraded over an approximate 10 year period to have double wall tank construction, leak detection and monitoring systems and periodic visual inspections along with periodic tank tightness testing.

You can bet that 95%+ of all USTs in the U.S. are non-leakers nowadays. So shutting down and repurposing service stations operated by "majors" is not an issue anymore.

I may be missing something, but I don’t know why anyone putting in an EV charging station would consider building on a former/current gas station - why risk any cost of remediation? Just build on a clean site. So the next paragraph is probably moot...

And while current UST manufacturing and monitoring tech is far better than the old steel or even single wall fiberglass UST’s, there are still some risks (I was also in the business). Even if a site is clean, fiberglass is not impermeable no matter how well manufactured, so there could be some very slight contamination - and again why risk any liability down the road? And spills can and do occur during frequent tanker unloading and consumer filling mishaps, UST leaks aren’t the only source. There are also water table issues at some sites that can take decades to surface - ever seen a UST filled above ground? I’ll bet the majors will have to remove UST’s and have the soil thoroughly tested to sell the property for another purpose, why would a buyer assume that responsibility, however slight.

 

[Ready]

Has anyone noticed that Tesla is still taking orders on their website as of this morning for 2018 deliveries? How is that even possible, especially with a custom order? I keep hoping the web site updates so that I don’t get tempted to place a last minute order to try and squeeze in the full tax credit before it goes away.

 

[Lakewood90712]

Has anyone noticed that Tesla is still taking orders on their website as of this morning for 2018 deliveries? How is that even possible, especially with a custom order? I keep hoping the web site updates so that I don’t get tempted to place a last minute order to try and squeeze in the full tax credit before it goes away.

Haven't looked at the website lately , but have herd reports of some inventory.

Also herd reports of Tesla reducing the cost equal to the tax break for anyone who ordered my a cutoff date earlier and did not receive delivery.Maybe this has been extended.

This would be a good business decision IMO, because cars on the line not yet finished by years end with a 2018 vin number cannot be branded as 2019 AFAIK.

 

[ERD50]

Perhaps it is from the collective consciousness of the various solar car challenge races? These cars typically have drivers weigh in at 80kg with a car 300kg or less. Comfort consists of a liter of water to drink or spray on you and rain-x as a windshield wiper.

These races are great! Super good for engineering students.

But they won't be daily drivers until serious power breakthroughs are made so a car with typical comfort and safety can be designed.

The problem is, things like this, and the circumnavigating solar plane make the non-tech people think "See you naysayers, this will advance like computers, and soon, we will all be flying in solar powered planes and driving solar powered cars that we never have to plug in (solar powered flying cars?)! The renewable energy problems are solved!"

But we won't. The tech is sufficiently advanced and understood. There is no reason other than publicity or "just because" to build a solar plane or solar car. It's pretty easy to model this, and realize that even with the most optimistic advances, a solar plane just isn't going to carry a significant payload. We didn't really learn anything by building one, we already knew it could just barely carry itself and a pilot. And that won't change for planes w/o way, way, way better batteries and better solar panels. A practical car simply doesn't have enough surface area to power itself and passengers, even with 100% efficient, zero mass solar cells and perfect, zero mass batteries.

It's fine as a competition I guess, but people should not read anything into it.

Has anyone noticed that Tesla is still taking orders on their website as of this morning for 2018 deliveries? How is that even possible, especially with a custom order? I keep hoping the web site updates so that I don’t get tempted to place a last minute order to try and squeeze in the full tax credit before it goes away.

Well, they had to be somewhat conservative about promising someone by year end and then not delivering (would they owe the customer $3,500?). So anything they are finishing this week is probably up for grabs. Why wouldn't you be able to buy one out of inventory with 2 days to go? And you probably have to be physically close to where the inventory is.

I'll bet 'custom' means "if we have one ready or nearly ready to go in that configuration, and we can get it to you in time".

-ERD50

 

[aja8888]

I may be missing something, but I don’t know why anyone putting in an EV charging station would consider building on a former/current gas station - why risk any cost of remediation? Just build on a clean site. So the next paragraph is probably moot...

And while current UST manufacturing and monitoring tech is far better than the old steel or even single wall fiberglass UST’s, there are still some risks (I was also in the business). Even if a site is clean, fiberglass is not impermeable no matter how well manufactured, so there could be some very slight contamination - and again why risk any liability down the road? And spills can and do occur during frequent tanker unloading and consumer filling mishaps, UST leaks aren’t the only source. There are also water table issues at some sites that can take decades to surface - ever seen a UST filled above ground? I’ll bet the majors will have to remove UST’s and have the soil thoroughly tested to sell the property for another purpose, why would a buyer assume that responsibility, however slight.

When I left Big oil, we were budgeting $400,000 - $500,000 for soil remediation of closed sites that were previously upgraded.

One thing to understand is that the "Majors" have sold or are still selling all their downstream operations including all the service stations. Not that they are risk free, but do have another "owner" in the loop, in case of lawsuits.

Yes, why build charging stations on old gas station sites in the first place when all that open land is available along freeways.

 

[NW-Bound]

The problem is, things like this, and the circumnavigating solar plane make the non-tech people think "See you naysayers, this will advance like computers, and soon, we will all be flying in solar powered planes and driving solar powered cars that we never have to plug in (solar powered flying cars?)! The renewable energy problems are solved!"

But we won't. The tech is sufficiently advanced and understood. There is no reason other than publicity or "just because" to build a solar plane or solar car. It's pretty easy to model this, and realize that even with the most optimistic advances, a solar plane just isn't going to carry a significant payload. We didn't really learn anything by building one, we already knew it could just barely carry itself and a pilot. And that won't change for planes w/o way, way, way better batteries and better solar panels. A practical car simply doesn't have enough surface area to power itself and passengers, even with 100% efficient, zero mass solar cells and perfect, zero mass batteries.

It's fine as a competition I guess, but people should not read anything into it.

I like this kind of challenges, even though they are not really practical (of course the public does not know that they are for just for fun).

One of the hardest feats is the human-powered plane. Straight flight was achieved in 1961, but the Kremer prize that required the flight to be a figure 8 around two pylons half-mile apart was not claimed until 1977. That requirement of turning in flight made it a lot more difficult and increased the physical stress to the pilot to the edge of human capability to pedal the propeller. Of course, he had to be skinny too.

The public seemed to understand this accomplishment, because nobody jumped up and down to say that anyone could now fly himself to Europe by pedaling his own plane.

By the way, someone later pedaled his plane across the English channel. The design of these ultralights to be human-powered is a tough one. It could be harder than building a rocket, yet does not bring in much money.

 

[Lakewood90712]

Tesla and towing a trailer

I have seen a few model S and X with trailer hitches, not towing anything but used for bike racks.

Does Tesla prohibit towing in the owners manual? and if so, would they deny a warranty claim on power-train or suspension if a hitch is installed ?

 

[eroscott]

I have seen a few model S and X with trailer hitches, not towing anything but used for bike racks.

Does Tesla prohibit towing in the owners manual? and if so, would they deny a warranty claim on power-train or suspension if a hitch is installed ?

The tow hitch was an option on the Model X. I think it is standard now. It was not on my 'used' 2017 Model X but they added it for free when I bought it. I don't think there was much for them to do. The wiring for the 7-pin and electric brake was already there. I also had the towing on my 2016 Model X. I've only pulled flat trailers with it. Bought one in WI and drove it to my kids in KY.

Air suspension can auto-level as well. I've seen this when people pull a large boat or horse trailer.

Google search Model X towing: https://www.google.com/search?q=towing+tesla+model+x

 

[Midpack]

I well remember when none of us (expect one poster here maybe) could have known that by now, most of us would have smartphones with the capability/utility they have today. Cellphones maybe, but smartphones by now? Astounding IMO.

We just bought our second car, a 2019 model, with the whole suite of driver assist features, not a Tesla, and it's pretty amazing what it can do. Even better the 2018 of another make we bought in Feb. Not perfect, but pretty impressive given the small premium they seem to cost. Still level 1-2 at best, orders of magnitude short of level 4-5.

 

[Lakewood90712]

Certified Used Tesla

Does Tesla offer certified pre owned ?

I believe a lot of trade ins will be coming up in 2019 in CA. The older cars with white carpool lane stickers expiring on Jan 1st cannot get the new red carpool stickers, so I see some trade in or trade ups of older model S cars.

 

[eroscott]

Does Tesla offer certified pre owned ?

I believe a lot of trade ins will be coming up in 2019 in CA. The older cars with white carpool lane stickers expiring on Jan 1st cannot get the new red carpool stickers, so I see some trade in or trade ups of older model S cars.

I bought my 2017 X as a 'service loaner' with 4K miles. It was in excellent shape.

The CPO program exist but it has changed over time. I think in the early days they did a lot of work to the cars before selling them. Now I think they are inspected and have the normal service done to them. Annual services are somewhat expensive so just make sure that latest one is done and part of the deal.

More info and addition links at the bottom of this article:
https://insideevs.com/tesla-changes-cpo-program-cars-no-longer-refurbished/

 

[oneill225]

I have seen a few model S and X with trailer hitches, not towing anything but used for bike racks.
Does Tesla prohibit towing in the owners manual? and if so, would they deny a warranty claim on power-train or suspension if a hitch is installed ?

Informative video:

 

[Lakewood90712]

Tes;a Towing

Informative video:

Thanks for the link.

This came too

The trailer is see thru to the rear !

I would not be towing a camp trailer. Boat, short distances , but up a steep hill.

 

[bobandsherry]

Annual services are somewhat expensive so just make sure that latest one is done and part of the deal.

What annual maintenance is required? Understood from an earlier poster that there was much less maintenance with EV vs. ICE.

 

[Ronstar]

Buying a Tesla could present a problem to those that also drive “not so smart” cars. After driving a Tesla (or any car) in an automated mode, will the driver slack off a bit when they drive a normal car?

My F150 has a back up camera. I look at the camera to back up. I now hesitate to look behind me when I drive a different vehicle.

 

[aja8888]

Buying a Tesla could present a problem to those that also drive “not so smart” cars. After driving a Tesla (or any car) in an automated mode, will the driver slack off a bit when they drive a normal car?

My F150 has a back up camera. I look at the camera to back up. I now hesitate to look behind me when I drive a different vehicle.

My DW failed her driver's License test (required for her last year) because when she had to back up her SUV, she only used the backup camera and didn't attempt to turn her head and look directly back. She did look on both sides, though. Retake, she did ok.

 

[Ready]

The backup camera was never intended to be used instead of turning your head to look behind you. The field of view is too narrow to see everything, especially in a parking lot with pedestrians and shopping carts coming from both sides of the cars.

 

[Ronstar]

My DW failed her driver's License test (required for her last year) because when she had to back up her SUV, she only used the backup camera and didn't attempt to turn her head and look directly back. She did look on both sides, though. Retake, she did ok.

MIL got reprimanded in her drivers test for turning her head and looking back while backing up. Examiner said she should use her mirrors.

 

[NW-Bound]

Thanks for the link.

This came too

The trailer is see thru to the rear !

I would not be towing a camp trailer. Boat, short distances , but up a steep hill.

I do not expect that a Tesla would have problems towing due to the motor big torque. The range is greatly affected though. The youtube poster says that towing the trailer cut his range in half. The aeodynamic aspect of the car is shot with that trailer. That's a common problem with motorhomes and RV trailers.

I am glad gasoline is still cheap for me to drive a motorhome towing a car behind, and to go for treks of longer than 10,000 miles a shot. My grandchildren (if I will have any) will read about this in the future, and curse earlier generations for burning up all the gas.

 

[NW-Bound]

Here are Parts 2 and 3 of the trailer trip with a Tesla X. I watched it because I like RV'ing, and am also curious about doing it with an EV. See what you think, but with the range anxiety and lack of spontaneity for straying off-course, it would not work for me.

 

[ERD50]

I do not expect that a Tesla would have problems towing due to the motor big torque. The range is greatly affected though. The youtube poster says that towing the trailer cut his range in half. The aeodynamic aspect of the car is shot with that trailer. That's a common problem with motorhomes and RV trailers. ....

I was surprised it affected range that much. I wouldn't think that an ICE car pulling a trailer that size would see mpg drop nearly in half. Would it? It's not that big/heavy of a trailer. But if Tesla is more aerodynamic than average (I think it is), then the trailer creates a greater proportional load as well.

Though I'm thinking, this could be a side effect of the efficiency of the electric motor - double the load, and you consume double the energy. But since an ICE is wasting so much energy at cruising speed with the engine only mildly loaded, it would be (I think) significantly more efficient when more fully loaded. Of course, it's using more gas with a heavy load, but as it becomes more efficient, it doesn't go up in the same proportion.

I seem to recall something about "Brake Horsepower Efficiency" or something, that expressed this point where an ICE uses fuel most efficiently (in the pure physics sense - Pout/Pin) - and I think this is probably near full load. Off to do some googling...

Ahhh, "Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC)" - "The lowest BSFC is represented by an “island”, usually at mid engine speeds and high torque (load), close to peak full load torque."

https://x-engineer.org/automotive-e...ormance/brake-specific-fuel-consumption-bsfc/

Brake Specific Fuel Consumption - EngineKnowHow

Eyeballing a few graphs, I can see points where a doubling of the load would see an increase in fuel consumption of ~ 1.8x rather than the expected 2x, and ~ 1.3x at lighter loads being doubled. You would need specific engine/load/speed curves for all of that, but it is a factor. Yes, there is some irony there. The higher eff% of the EV means little change in eff% with load, while the ICE being relatively inefficient, has room to improve with load.

That's basically the trend to smaller engines (and hybrids) for fuel economy. Keep the smaller engine more fully loaded more of the time, boost performance when needed with turbo and/or battery/motor in a hybrid.

-ERD50

 

[Lakewood90712]

Towing with a Tesla X

Flexible fairing between the car and trailer ?

 

[ERD50]

Here are Parts 2 and 3 of the trailer trip with a Tesla X. I watched it because I like RV'ing, and am also curious about doing it with an EV. See what you think, but with the range anxiety and lack of spontaneity for straying off-course, it would not work for me. ...

Interesting. Wow, he spent very nearly half as much time charging as he did driving. And drove slower than he wanted at some points, and was considering reducing the A/C .

Not a knock against EVs, just the reality that at this time, that's kind of a square peg in a round hole match up. Interesting to note, people talk about 20-30 minute charge times, but as he points out, that's for ~ 80% charge. Lithium batteries require a slower charge rate for that last 20%, so he was charging for an hour (or more?) in the cases where he really needed a full charge to get to his destination.

-ERD50