Thoughts on TESLA

[Lakewood90712]

If we can get, say a 10x improvement in battery weight and volume, a lot of exciting things can happen.

But at the present, as mentioned in an article titled "Electric flight is coming, but the batteries aren’t ready",

"... flying requires an incredible amount of energy, and presently, batteries are too heavy and too expensive to achieve liftoff. The technology that allows Tesla to squeeze 300 miles of range out of a Model 3 or Chevy to get 200 miles out of the Bolt isn’t enough to power more than a two-seater aircraft with a flight range limited to only a few miles."

See: https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/14/...flying-car-battery-weight-green-energy-travel.

The article described the crash of an experimental plane built by Siemens, which appeared to catch fire in the air when they were testing high-energy motors and batteries.

Back in the early 1960's NASA and the US Air Force were playing around with the concept of an airborne nuclear reactor . The idea of a bomber staying aloft for weeks at a time. " If the Navy can do it we can too" I don't think the project went anywhere.

 

[Ronstar]

Does a Tesla owner make reservations for charging time at a Supercharger? Or is it first come first served. The supercharger in the Scottsdale Quarter mall is always occupied when I go by there. Just wondering if there is a problem getting charger time due to a backlog of Teslas waiting to charge at a station.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Does a Tesla owner make reservations for charging time at a Supercharger? Or is it first come first served. The supercharger in the Scottsdale Quarter mall is always occupied when I go by there. Just wondering if there is a problem getting charger time due to a backlog of Teslas waiting to charge at a station.

Since March, I've only had to wait one time, maybe 4 minutes. They are open 24/7. People go in and out quickly. I charged from 48% to 78% in 18 minutes recently.

Charging concerns are way overblown on this forum. But perhaps thats a CA viewpoint, due to all my options.

I think the real hurdle is will there be buyers for the multitude of EV's that will be hitting the market in 2019 and the next couple of years after. Look at sales of Leaf and Bolt. Not a big number with either.

Tesla's Model 3 is the 6th highest selling vehicle in the country last I heard. I'm skeptical the others will ever come close to that success.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

Not a problem, just thought Tesla software would provide that.

When i go on vacation for 2 weeks (out of the country) my auto gas bill is under $50, because I don't drive many miles.

I have to say, with you owning 2 Tesla vehicles and only drivibg a total of about 10,000 miles per year, well you don't seem like a Tightwad like your username suggests. [emoji3]

I am a tightwad. A tour of my house would reveal some fascinating things. I made the purchases due to: 1) safest vehicles I could get my hands on 2) tax credits/rebates of 10,450 each, which would be reduced in 2019 3) Free supercharging on the X didn't hurt

I mentioned before, some choose to spend on Waygu beef, some on other things.

In my personal situation, I could have kept my Prius and passed about 3.9 mil to my kids. Or made my purchases and pass 3.8. I chose the latter. Perhaps I'll crash and the car will keep my alive when otherwise I wouldn't be. I figured I'd spend and see how it turns out.

 

[NW-Bound]

You can afford them, and enjoy them. That's good enough reason for me. They are not bad cars either.

 

[bobandsherry]

I am a tightwad. A tour of my house would reveal some fascinating things. I made the purchases due to: 1) safest vehicles I could get my hands on 2) tax credits/rebates of 10,450 each, which would be reduced in 2019 3) Free supercharging on the X didn't hurt

I mentioned before, some choose to spend on Waygu beef, some on other things.

In my personal situation, I could have kept my Prius and passed about 3.9 mil to my kids. Or made my purchases and pass 3.8. I chose the latter. Perhaps I'll crash and the car will keep my alive when otherwise I wouldn't be. I figured I'd spend and see how it turns out.

And there are those who never really enjoy what they earned, living a very frugal lifestyle their entire life. Just saw story on news in past week where guy passed and left over $3.5million to charity. He wore old clothes, drove old car, lived in run down home. I just don't get that.

But seriously, no explanation needed. I look that you earned it, enjoy it.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by aja8888 I'm curious to know how the owner of the car is billed for the power they consume at the Tesla charging stations? Do they use a credit card? Or is there some other system to charge the user? What's the cost of the electricity?

Credit card. At least 1/2 - 1/4 the cost of gas....

Thanks. I see that Illinois? charge rate of $0.24 kW...is that just for that area? Also, that seems pretty high given that we pay less than half that where we live. Is that a local/regional charge per kW?

(looks like you changed it to Kentucky that charges differently.)

I'm not sure how you can say that the power charge is 1/2 - 1/4 the cost of gas though. ....

Funny how the fans cherry-pick, huh? Now " At least 1/2 - 1/4 the cost of gas" should mean exactly that (although actually, "at least" with a range makes no sense - "at least" is a single number) I'll be generous and use the 1/2 instead of 1/4, which would be the least. So in no location I pick should supercharging cost me more than 50% of gasoline cost.

So with zero cherry picking, just selecting my State and local gas prices, we have the $0.24/kWh from the Illinois Supercharger, and we have gas at less than $2.00 per gallon (I paid less yesterday, but I'll round up).

So if a kWh gets you 3 miles in an EV, that's $2.40 for 30 miles. So a gas car getting even a not great, 25 mpg (my non-hybrid car does better than that) is about on par with Supercharger. So the fan eroscott is off by a factor of 2 to 4. Funny how those errors are always in favor of EVs. Are EV owners math challenged?

.... EV's aren't paying road use tax (yet) so the comparison is not the same.

It is a fair economic comparison for now (even if we don't think it is 'fair' to not charge use tax).

But the fans predicting some wildly high % of EV in the fleet really need to consider that if that were to happen, EVs are going to have to pay a use tax, and gasoline prices will come down as demand reduces, and kWh will go up.

Taxes on a gallon of gas are ~ $0.50 in IL. So if the IL fleet avg mpg is 25, that means to be 'fair', EVs should be paying an additional $.02 per mile, or roughly an additional $.06 per kWh. That makes a Supercharger more expensive than gasoline, not cheaper at all. And charging at home in IL @ ~ $0.11/kWh, would now be $0.17 with tax added. Cheaper than gasoline, but not by much ( ~ $1.70 for 30 miles on EV, $2.00 for gas @ 30 mpg). Especially with many (and more and more) hybrids getting > 40 mpg.

So how does this " At least 1/2 - 1/4 the cost of gas" match up with current reality, and a future of supposed very high% of EV in the fleet. I don't think it does. If I am wrong, show me where.

-ERD50

 

[Lakewood90712]

From the funny papers

Someone blocking my supercharger spot ?
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...arget-tesla-superchargers-in-iceing-incidents

EDIT: From my daily E mail Green Car Reports

 

[Ready]

According to the EPA, the Model 3 gets the "equivalent" of 130 mpg city/hwy. See link to EPA web site:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Pow...2018&make=Tesla&baseModel=Model 3&srchtyp=ymm

Of course this will vary depending on how expensive electricity is in your specific location, just as the cost of gas varies from state to state.

If I were to compare the 130 EPA estimate to my Lexus LS460 which averages 15 mpg, the Tesla is 8.67X more efficient. If I were to compare it to the Prius we used to drive which got 50mpg, the Tesla is only 2.6X more efficient.

Because the price of gas and electricity varies so much from state to state, and how efficient you deem a Tesla to be is highly dependent on what type of ICE vehicle you are comparing it to, the efficiency numbers will vary wildly.

 

[ERD50]

According to the EPA, the Model 3 gets the "equivalent" of 130 mpg city/hwy. See link to EPA web site:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Pow...2018&make=Tesla&baseModel=Model 3&srchtyp=ymm

Of course this will vary depending on how expensive electricity is in your specific location, just as the cost of gas varies from state to state.

If I were to compare the 130 EPA estimate to my Lexus LS460 which averages 15 mpg, the Tesla is 8.67X more efficient. If I were to compare it to the Prius we used to drive which got 50mpg, the Tesla is only 2.6X more efficient.

Because the price of gas and electricity varies so much from state to state, and how efficient you deem a Tesla to be is highly dependent on what type of ICE vehicle you are comparing it to, the efficiency numbers will vary wildly.

No, that 'equivalent' is a bogus number that ignores the efficiency of the power plant making the electricity.

eroscott posted numbers comparing the cost of driving on electric versus driving on gas. Don't get derailed by other efficiency numbers, just look at what it costs to drive a mile in a Tesla on electricity, and the cost to drive a mile in an ICE on gasoline. It's a simple calculation. Review my numbers, are they wrong in the context that eroscott provided? Show me.

-ERD50

 

[ERD50]

Someone blocking my supercharger spot ?
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...arget-tesla-superchargers-in-iceing-incidents

That's a stupid thing to do, not funny in any way. And while it does not justify it, maybe if some of these EV owners didn't act so superior, other people wouldn't retaliate in this way.

I can understand a lower-middle class guy being aggravated that some rich guy gets a $7,500 tax credit to buy a $100,000 car. That frustration drives some people to do some stupid things.

-ERD50

 

[oneill225]

No, that 'equivalent' is a bogus number that ignores the efficiency of the power plant making the electricity.
eroscott posted numbers comparing the cost of driving on electric versus driving on gas. Don't get derailed by other efficiency numbers, just look at what it costs to drive a mile in a Tesla on electricity, and the cost to drive a mile in an ICE on gasoline. It's a simple calculation. Review my numbers, are they wrong in the context that eroscott provided? Show me.-ERD50

How about the "efficiency" of the refinery making the gas ERD? My goodness, the simple point is that EV cars can be (and overwhelmingly are) much cheaper to drive as compared to a gas vehicle. Stop with the petty gotcha games.

 

[ERD50]

... My goodness, the simple point is that EV cars can be (and overwhelmingly are) much cheaper to drive as compared to a gas vehicle. Stop with the petty gotcha games.

No games from me, petty or otherwise. I used numbers. I showed you my numbers on costs per mile for kWh and gasoline, which eroscott claimed were 2x to 4x in favor of EVs.

Show me your NUMBERS!

-ERD50

 

[Cessna152]

No, that 'equivalent' is a bogus number that ignores the efficiency of the power plant making the electricity.

eroscott posted numbers comparing the cost of driving on electric versus driving on gas. Don't get derailed by other efficiency numbers, just look at what it costs to drive a mile in a Tesla on electricity, and the cost to drive a mile in an ICE on gasoline. It's a simple calculation. Review my numbers, are they wrong in the context that eroscott provided? Show me.

-ERD50

Where did you get $0.24/kWh?

According to https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
the national average ultimate cost to the customer in October was $0.1046/kWh. Illinois is listed at $0.0964. The highest cost was Hawaii, at $0.2901/kWh.

 

[Ready]

ERD50, I'm just not following your point. Efficiency numbers attempt to compare a EV to an ICE vehicle in terms of what fraction of cost savings is associated with electricity vs gas.

To come up with a specific efficiency rating you need to state how much you pay per kw for charging, what ICE vehicle you are comparing it to, and what the cost per gallon of gas is in your area.

If I run a trip planner in abetterrouteplanner.com going 280 miles, it shows I need to make one stop and pay $5.39 in electricity. It assumes I started with 90% battery power, which cost me about $6.00 using my home charging rate and time of use plan for electricity. So total cost for one way is $11.39. Keep in mind many Tesla owners who bought prior to 9/2018 get free unlimited supercharging. Mine is only free for the first six months.

If I take my Lexus, I pay $70 to fill the tank with gas. I would have a quarter tank left when I get there, so I would have used about $52.00 in gas.

 

[ERD50]

Where did you get $0.24/kWh?

According to https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a
the national average ultimate cost to the customer in October was $0.1046/kWh. Illinois is listed at $0.0964. The highest cost was Hawaii, at $0.2901/kWh.

Context!

This was in reply to eroscott's post #1701, where aja8888 was asking about the costs to charge at a Supercharger. Go back a few, and I clearly was talking about the Supercharger rates in IL.

#1757:

$0.24/kWh from the Illinois Supercharger,

Look it up. Again, if my numbers are wrong in the context being discussed, please show me so I can learn.

-ERD50

 

[Ready]

To use specific numbers for my situation:

I pay .13/Kw for home charging. My M3 has a 75Kw battery. .13x75 = 9.75. I get 310 miles range. 9.75/310 = .0314 cents per mile to drive the Tesla.

My Lexus LS460 averages 15 miles per gallon. I'll bump it up to 20 for highway only driving. I pay $3.40 for a gallon of gas. 3.40 / 15 = .2267 per mile to drive the Lexus.

So to compare the efficiency of my Tesla to my Lexus, it would be

.2267 / .0314 = 7.22. My Tesla is 7.22 more efficient than my Lexus.

 

[ERD50]

ERD50, I'm just not following your point. Efficiency numbers attempt to compare a EV to an ICE vehicle in terms of what fraction of cost savings is associated with electricity vs gas.

To come up with a specific efficiency rating you need to state how much you pay per kw for charging, what ICE vehicle you are comparing it to, and what the cost per gallon of gas is in your area.

If I run a trip planner in abetterrouteplanner.com going 280 miles, it shows I need to make one stop and pay $5.39 in electricity. It assumes I started with 90% battery power, which cost me about $6.00 using my home charging rate and time of use plan for electricity. So total cost for one way is $11.39. Keep in mind many Tesla owners who bought prior to 9/2018 get free unlimited supercharging. Mine is only free for the first six months.

If I take my Lexus, I pay $70 to fill the tank with gas. I would have a quarter tank left when I get there, so I would have used about $52.00 in gas.

I can't follow/evaluate your numbers because you are not precise. What is a "fill up" or a "quarter tank"? How much do you pay for gas? How much is your kWh? How far do you get on a kWh?

I gave my numbers in the context of the discussion between eroscott and aja8888. It was simple and clear. Show me where I'm wrong in that context, in numbers, precisely. Please.

All this hand waving and vagueness is frustrating.

edit/add: I cross posted with you - gotta run, will review your numbers later.

-ERD50

 

[oneill225]

No games from me, petty or otherwise. I used numbers. I showed you my numbers on costs per mile for kWh and gasoline, which eroscott claimed were 2x to 4x in favor of EVs.
Show me your NUMBERS!-ERD50

There are those who cannot see the forest for the trees.

The average fuel mileage in the US is right about 25 miles per gallon.
https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html

The average cost of electricity in the US is right about 10 cents per kilowatt.
https://www.wisegeek.com/how-much-is-a-kilowatt-hour.htm

The average Tesla needs about 30 kilowatts for 100 miles of range.

This comes out to an average cost of $9 for 300 miles of range. At $2 a gallon for gas, 12 gallons will cost you $24. That is significant difference for most people.

There are your numbers, ERD. I know that you think averages are useless, so tweak them in any way you like and let us know whether there is a scenario anywhere in the US where a gas fueled sedan is cheaper to refuel than a electric or hybrid sedan at the same location.

 

[ERD50]

Originally Posted by ERD50
No games from me, petty or otherwise. I used numbers. I showed you my numbers on costs per mile for kWh and gasoline, which eroscott claimed were 2x to 4x in favor of EVs.
Show me your NUMBERS!-ERD50

There are those who cannot see the forest for the trees.

The average fuel mileage in the US is right about 25 miles per gallon.
https://phys.org/news/2016-11-average-fuel-economy-high-mpg.html

The average cost of electricity in the US is right about 10 cents per kilowatt.
https://www.wisegeek.com/how-much-is-a-kilowatt-hour.htm

The average Tesla needs about 30 kilowatts for 100 miles of range.

This comes out to an average cost of $9 for 300 miles of range. At $2 a gallon for gas, 12 gallons will cost you $24. That is significant difference for most people.

There are your numbers, ERD. I know that you think averages are useless, so tweak them in any way you like and let us know whether there is a scenario anywhere in the US where a gas fueled sedan is cheaper to refuel than a non-electric or non-hybrid sedan at the same location.

One word again: Context!

You missed it again, that's not the discussion - it's right there in my post! Go back - Aww heck, I'll spell it out for you, again - eroscott said SUPERCHARGER costs were at least 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of gas. Who's playing games?

Review it with some seriousness this time.

-ERD50

 

[oneill225]

One word again: Context!
You missed it again, that's not the discussion - it's right there in my post! Go back - Aww heck, I'll spell it out for you, again - eroscott said SUPERCHARGER costs were at least 1/2 to 1/4 the cost of gas. Who's playing games?
Review it with some seriousness this time.-ERD50

Good to get that context. So, you do not dispute that EVs get at least 2.5 times the mileage over gas cars for the same amount of money?

Edit: When not using a supercharger.

 

[Lakewood90712]

We can debate efficiency from the oil well ,to the gas tank ,to the wheels vs from the gas well or coal mine to the battery, to the wheels for a week.

Most people would be shocked at the energy wasted and co2 generated getting the energy to the wheels on the car starting back at the source. Be it Electric or ICE.

Solar, wind, hydro, nuke all use fossil fuels to build and maintain their infrastructure too. With the rare exception of places with excess hydro power, there is no free lunch.

 

[Mr. Tightwad]

That's a stupid thing to do, not funny in any way. And while it does not justify it, maybe if some of these EV owners didn't act so superior, other people wouldn't retaliate in this way.

I can understand a lower-middle class guy being aggravated that some rich guy gets a $7,500 tax credit to buy a $100,000 car. That frustration drives some people to do some stupid things.

-ERD50

The tax credits are not intended to help"rich guys". The governments of the world are implementing ways to eliminate ICE cars and transition to EV's (or whatever technology comes next). This is because ICE cars pollute the earth.

I read that 2000 environmentalists had a meeting in Poland recently. Now do you think as a result of that meeting, the environmentalists said:

A) everything is fine, no need to change anything we do, or

B) they came up with a list of things governments need to do, with eliminating ICE cars right near the top of the list.

I say B is the answer, because even if its not accurate, its a way for a environmentalists to keep their jobs.

Now if you don't want to accept what the governments are offering you to purchase an EV, then don't do it, and stop whining on retirement forums.

Your use of shaming language on anybody that thinks differently than you is pathetic. Grow up.

 

[38Chevy454]

Just a question to muddy the waters a bit. On the electric costs, most people's electric utility bill has a base cost for the electricity, and then there are several additional charges such as: distribution, delivery, and on my bill numerous generation riders. So the real cost per kWH is much higher than the base electricity cost. On my bill the delivery charges are approx half of the total bill.


So at a supercharger, is the cost of the electricity used to recharge including all those extra fees like delivery charges? Or for those quoting at home charging, do you use total cost?


I am not disagreeing that electric cost is typically less than gas cost on per mile basis. Just curious since electric cost can be stated in different ways, whereas gas cost is a fairly std $/gal cost; i.e the total cost.

 

[Ronstar]

I found this blog while l was researching Route 66 travel. A Tesla owner and his experiences on Route 66. Has info on Tesla ownership info including charging. Www.ElectricRoute66.com