Blow Bag for Rain Drain Pipe

[jazz4cash]

[-]what is a blow bag as mentioned in post #1?[/-]

nevermind

 

[imoldernu]

Absolutely none of my business, so feel free to disregard. We have 6 different downspouts for our 1600 sf house... none of them go into a drain... just on to a splash block that sends the roof water away from the house.

I'd assume your house is much, much larger. So... what about the rest of the downspouts? Do you have underground piping for all sides of the house? And separate drainpipes? Is that the way drainage works in your area... in to the main drain? ...Is it the same as the one your home waste water goes to?

The other question is why was the drain hose perforated in the first place?

I can't remember any of my 22 moves where this kind of drainage was used, but always willing to learn.

 

[TromboneAl]

Why do you think it is clogged? If you run water in through the top grate with a garden hose (no blow bag) does it come out the other end, or does it build up and overflow the grate? It sounds like you already cleaned out the catch basin.

It builds up quickly and overflows the grate. Plus, this is what I observed when it was raining.

My conclusion is that the clog lets water through slowly, unless it's under pressure (as with a blow bag).

But, it's possible that the flow is improved now. I let the blow bag water run for an hour or so.

However, you have to take steps to keep debris out of the downspouts so it doesn't end up in the drain lines. I use gutter filters, but there are many other products on the market for keeping gutters clean.

I understand, but I've tried several of those products (threads on this forum somewhere), and all have failed. I use a tool to scoop out the pine needles and other debris, but it builds up quickly.

 

[TromboneAl]

Absolutely none of my business, so feel free to disregard. We have 6 different downspouts for our 1600 sf house... none of them go into a drain... just on to a splash block that sends the roof water away from the house.

I'd assume your house is much, much larger. So... what about the rest of the downspouts? Do you have underground piping for all sides of the house? And separate drainpipes? Is that the way drainage works in your area... in to the main drain? ...Is it the same as the one your home waste water goes to?

The other question is why was the drain hose perforated in the first place?

I can't remember any of my 22 moves where this kind of drainage was used, but always willing to learn.

I appreciate the help.

House is 2,000 sq ft. All six downspouts feed into this drainage system. The pipes drain to the edge of the property (no neighbor on that side).

The picture above is perforated, but I didn't realize that until after I'd posted it. Mine isn't.

 

[TromboneAl]

And here it is, the clog:

I dug things up, and I could see the clog. I stuck the blow bag in there, and when I turned on the water, the whole pipe started coming out of the ground like one of the worms in the book Dune. Then, because the pipe was no longer supported on the sides, it split open.

I cut it to see the clog up close.

Here's a cross section of the clog:

Here's the source of the problem:

That root crushed the pipe open, and other roots worked their way in.

 

[TromboneAl]

Now I'm working on the trenching for the new PVC pipe:

Current plan:

1. Cut and cap off the corrugated pipe near the shovel.
2. Run new PVC pipe to where the shovel is, then make a 45 degree turn with more PVC pipe running down a hill.
3. Pipe will come to the surface under some bushes.

Should I include a clean-out junction?

Any other tips?

 

[travelover]

I'd definitely include at least one clean out for future use.

 

[ERD50]

I assume that anything you dig up will be replaced with rigid PVC (not the corrugated flex stuff)?

I think you need something better to keep the pine needles out. I think your box allows them to float out, only some are settling. That clog, is it mostly pine needles?

I'd think about a box above ground, for easy access, with a screen that can easily be removed and cleaned as needed. If the screen were angled in a fairly deep box, if the screen clogged at the bottom, the water could just rise and flow out the higher up section of the screen. You could include an overflow, so if it were totally clogged, you would still drain away from the house, with the risk of letting a few pine needles float through at that time.

But it shouldn't be that hard to keep it clear, I wouldn't think.

-ERD50

 

[TromboneAl]

The clog was made of composted muck and stuff from the roof shingles. Not much in the way of pine needles. It was really solid—calling a plumber would not have worked.

Another option is one of these:

I'm thinking that a direct connection might be best. With smooth 4" PVC and good slope, thing should wash out pretty well. Even the current system would have continued working if the pipe hadn't been broken by the root.

 

[always_learning]

I have a love/hate feeling about these buried drains. We spent way too many hours unclogging several of ours last summer.

The PVC idea wouldn't work for us as two of ours go under sidewalks, but I'm filing that into away for future reference.

One thing that we discovered was one of our clogs was nothing more than many years of grass roots growing back into the pipe where it emptied into the yard. Feet and feet of grass roots and mud were all up in there.

The other clogs were from tree roots growing into the black drains but a simple cut & paste with new piping was all that was needed.


I am of no help on ideas for preventing future clogs. We have the spongy things in our gutters now and those help keep out the shingle mess and pine needles as both 'settle' on top of the spongy things as opposed to getting washed in and then down.

 

[TromboneAl]

One thing that we discovered was one of our clogs was nothing more than many years of grass roots growing back into the pipe where it emptied into the yard. Feet and feet of grass roots and mud were all up in there.

How did you clear that out? Could you just pull the grass out and the roots came along?

 

[TromboneAl]

I'm leaning toward something like this.

What is the reason for the [-]22.5 degree + 22.5 degree[/-] 45 degree + 45 degree elbows instead of one 90 degree?

 

[Sunset]

maybe the person only had 22.5 degree elbows.

I had that happen when I went to buy some, the store was all out of 45 degree ones.

 

[TromboneAl]

And what do you seal the junctions with? PVC Cement or silicone?

 

[ERD50]

I'm leaning toward something like this.

What is the reason for the 22.5 degree + 22.5 degree elbows instead of one 45 degree?

You mean 45 + 45 instead of one 90.

Two 45s provide a smoother flow, less chance of gunk settling in the corner, or getting caught. Much easier to run a snake or the blow bag on a hose.

-ERD50

 

[samclem]

Any other tips?

1) If you do decide to directly connect to the gutter downspout, don't cement the joints that are above grade. You'll eventually need to take them apart (for cleanout, to replace a dented downspout, etc)
2) For your cleanouts, use the sanitary "Y's as you showed, but make your cleanout access 4" dia like the main pipe.
3) Put a grate over the end where the pipe discharges, with a pin you can remove to take it off. Otherwise, it will become a highway for chipmunks, squirrels, etc.
4) More cleanouts are better. You can also put two pointing opposite ways so you can feed push the snake up or down the line form one point. Obviously, but the one facing "upstream" downstream of the one facing "downstream" so there's no section of line that can't be reached.

 

[TromboneAl]

If I go with a direct connection, as MountainSoft has, I wouldn't need a cleanout connection. That is, I could just pull the downspout out, and put the plumber snake in there.

For the discharge, I'm thinking of using a popup, like this:

And I'm thinking of having the outlet here (the slope is greater than it appears):

 

[samclem]

For the discharge, I'm thinking of using a popup, like this:

And I'm thinking of having the outlet here (the slope is greater than it appears):

I think those "emitters" are a good solution in some cases. I wouldn't choose it here because:
1) My goal is to keep the water moving downhill from the time it enters the downspout. There is going to be debris in it (granules and dirt from the roof, pine needles, etc). If the water keeps moving, this stuff remains flowing with it (suspended or pushed along). With an elbow at the end pointed up, there is a dead spot where the water stops and pools, that's where junk/silt, etc falls out of suspension and eventually occludes the pipe. With a horizontal end, the junk keeps moving out (and if I need to clean it out from the end, it is easier).

2) With the upturned elbow at the end, there will be a gallon or many gallons (depending on the pipe pitch) trapped in the pipe when the rain ends, and it could take a long time to evaporate. Mosquitoes need about 14 days to go from eggs to biting, flying pests, and that's an issue where I live. Other pests appreciate standing water, too. With a horizontal end and a proper pitch, the pipe should be virtually empty of water as soon as the rain stops.

3) It has a moving part.

 

[TromboneAl]

Yes, I've found some websites that make the same arguments. Perhaps have the pipe just come out of the ground under the tree with a grating across the opening. It will have to be out of sight, or it will look redneck.

OTOH, we don't have mosquitoes here, and I could periodically clean it out.

 

[travelover]

Yes, I've found some websites that make the same arguments. Perhaps have the pipe just come out of the ground under the tree with a grating across the opening. It will have to be out of sight, or it will look redneck.

OTOH, we don't have mosquitoes here, and I could periodically clean it out.

You could just terminate it into a grated box and let it over flow. Periodically pop the grate and clean it out. You could also drill some small holes in the bottom so it drains between rains.


https://www.homedepot.com/p/NDS-9-i...03526931;302891172;302782497;-_-100377422-_-N

 

[TromboneAl]

You could also drill some small holes in the bottom so it drains between rains.

Nice. I can just have a 90 degree elbow up to a grate, and drill some holes in the bottom of the elbow to drain between rains.

 

[TromboneAl]

I've decided to go with a catch drain. That way I can always see immediately if there are any blockages.

Here's my plan. See any problems?

 

[samclem]

Nice. I can just have a 90 degree elbow up to a grate, and drill some holes in the bottom of the elbow to drain between rains.

Holes might provide a pathway for roots to get in. That was the cause of the last clog, right?

I've decided to go with a catch drain. That way I can always see immediately if there are any blockages.

Here's my plan. See any problems?

Observations:
1) The pop-up emitter for the end isn't on your list (which I think is a good thing. ). I'd still vote for a regular horizontal end with a grate over it and maybe put it behind that cypress bush if you are worried about how it looks.

2) You can cut your costs by using 4" DWV pipe rather than Schedule 40 PVC. It is fine for this application, it has belled ends so you'll need fewer connectors, it is easier to handle (lighter). Make sure whatever pipe you use fits the connections on the drainage basins.

3) "While you are digging anyway": It's hard to tell from the photos, but it looks like you might have a hillside that slopes down toward your house on the side where you're digging this trench along your footer? And it looks like you might have a low spot at the corner of the house under your hose bib? If so, I'd consider making your present trench wider and burying a second, smooth pipe to serve as a curtain/foundation drain beside the solid smooth pipe for your downspouts. There are many opinions about how to keep such a drain from silting up, but the thing to remember is that it will be taking water in primarily from the surface, so I'd probably just buy solid pipe and make small slits (90 degrees to the length of the pipe) every few inches using a power saw, then fill the trench with very coarse sand (very little will find its way into the pipe). Leave it sand all the way to the surface. I did this at my house. These type of sand beds silt up more slowly than a gravel bed, and avoiding the use of "filter fabric" keeps it effective longer. Don't be temped to use your gutter drainpipe run to do this too. Previously you've mentioned that you sometimes have moisture issues in the house, something like this might help reduce the water content of the soil under your crawlspace and might let your wood siding dry out quicker (since the soil along the edge of the wall will be less wet).
Any curtain drain would need cleanouts just like the run you are planning now for your downspout drain pipe.


4) I'd consider dual-facing cleanouts or another grated basin at the last corner of your house before the pipe goes out into the yard.

5) Make sure you can get a snake and a shopvac hose into any basin and turned into the pipe if you are planning to use it as a cleanout. The need for a larger radius might make it good to use a bigger basin.

Good luck!

 

[always_learning]

How did you clear that out? Could you just pull the grass out and the roots came along?

In our case, yes. We have Zoysia grass, so the roots really took on the shape of the drain and came out in chunks with lots of pulling. We knew when we had the end of the line as the roots were actually clean as opposed to being caked with mud. I'd guess the longest ones went back about six to seven feet.

Holes might provide a pathway for roots to get in. That was the cause of the last clog, right?

I'm with Samclem here in that I wouldn't add holes. We discovered one of our root-laden drains was the kind with holes spaced every so often to allow for drainage instead of the solid ones and the roots just loved those access areas.


I can't speak to the rest of your plan, OP, other than to say it sure sounds like one heck of an undertaking and I wish you luck!

 

[travelover]

I agree with samclem about the DWV pipe - it will be fine for this application and cheaper. I'd also agree that it is better to have clean outs than not. If it is the appearance on the surface that is objectionable, you can bury them or put a box with a lid over them similar to a sprinkler valve box.

At the exit, I think just using a 90 degree elbow with a grate will cause plugging problems because unlike a box that has a lower area to act as a trap / collector, the elbow will just start backing up and it may be hard to reach back in far enough to get debris out. A few more bucks, but I think it will save you grief later.