SS Online Application, proof of identity in these times.

[ShokWaveRider]

DW is calling them now!

 

[Alan]

I feel like I'm missing something here. We don't need citizenship to receive SS. What's the purpose of asking to prove it? Is this just for people not born in US? Isn't a passport proof of citizenship?

Nope, a passport isn't good enough. We went through this with the ACA a few years ago when we applied, another government program that is open to all legal residents, not just US Citizens, but the question of US citizenship is asked. Had to upload a copy of our Naturalization Certificates as a US passport was not good enough proof. As Gumby pointed out above the different government departments don't talk to one another so every time we deal with a new government department we have to go through the whole process of proving citizenship.

You can be a US Citizen and not be eligible for SS or Medicare so as far I am concerned it is a total waste of time since they have our record of payments and our right to live here is on record with them (SSA) and other government departments. Our US passports don't prove we were legal residents paying into the system for the 11 years we had visas and green cards.

So frustrating.

 

[Gumby]

I feel like I'm missing something here. We don't need citizenship to receive SS. What's the purpose of asking to prove it? Is this just for people not born in US? Isn't a passport proof of citizenship?

Actually, you do need to be a citizen, unless you have a green card (permanent resident alien) or meet a handful of other exemptions noted here https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm

If you were born in the US, you are automatically a citizen by virtue of the 14th Amendment. If you were born abroad, you can be a citizen under certain circumstances if one of your parents was a citizen. Otherwise, you need to be naturalized.

So, I told the SSA on my application that I was born abroad, but that I am a citizen. If I had said I was not a citizen, they would ask me for my green card, I'm sure.

 

[ivinsfan]

Actually, you do need to be a citizen, unless you have a green card (permanent resident alien) or meet a handful of other exemptions noted here https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm

If you were born in the US, you are automatically a citizen by virtue of the 14th Amendment. If you were born abroad, you can be a citizen under certain circumstances if one of your parents was a citizen. Otherwise, you need to be naturalized.

So, I told the SSA on my application that I was born abroad, but that I am a citizen. If I had said I was not a citizen, they would ask me for my green card, I'm sure.

Yes and hopefully everyone in this situation held on tight to every bit of paperwork. I had a valid US passport which apparently impressed no one. I needed my UK BC, and my original military form for a child born abroad to an active military member. I don't know what happens if you can't produce these items.

 

[Alan]

Actually, you do need to be a citizen, unless you have a green card (permanent resident alien) or meet a handful of other exemptions noted here https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm

If you were born in the US, you are automatically a citizen by virtue of the 14th Amendment. If you were born abroad, you can be a citizen under certain circumstances if one of your parents was a citizen. Otherwise, you need to be naturalized.

So, I told the SSA on my application that I was born abroad, but that I am a citizen. If I had said I was not a citizen, they would ask me for my green card, I'm sure.

To receive SSI you may have to be a citizen or Green card holder but not for regular SS if you live in one of the many countries that the SSA deals with. I even know someone in the small town I live in who moved back here after 30 years in the USA on Green Cards. He gave up his Green Card immediately he left the USA to save all the extra onerous tax filings and other financial restrictions and requirements. A Green Card automatically expires anyway after a year or 2 away from the USA. His SS payments go directly into his UK bank.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

OP Here: OK here is the scoop.

We called our local office, it was answered by a person that was working from home.

They reviewed DW's application and fixed one problem with the application.

They do NOT accept emails but do accept faxes.

DW does not have to show a birth certificate as she is a Citizen. They just need a fax of the Citizen certificate and a copy of the Canadian Pension letter (for WEP).

That is it.

 

[Alan]

OP Here: OK here is the scoop.

We called our local office, it was answered by a person that was working from home.

They reviewed DW's application and fixed one problem with the application.

They do NOT accept emails but do accept faxes.

DW does not have to show a birth certificate as she is a Citizen. They just need a fax of the Citizen certificate and a copy of the Canadian Pension letter (for WEP).

That is it.

Good news!!

What's a fax?

 

[Gumby]

Good point. It appears that FedEx Office locations have fax machines. Now, I just need to figure our how to get access to my safe deposit box at the bank, where the document currently resides.

 

[PaunchyPirate]

Good news!!

What's a fax?

Haha. Exactly!

I did have to fax something to Fidelity about a year ago to straighten out a problem. I signed up for a free trial of an online fax service. I think it was myfax.com. I used it and it worked just fine. I decided to pay them one month of service after my free trial ended just because I'm a good guy and received value from them.

 

[bmcgonig]

To receive SSI you may have to be a citizen or Green card holder but not for regular SS if you live in one of the many countries that the SSA deals with. I even know someone in the small town I live in who moved back here after 30 years in the USA on Green Cards. He gave up his Green Card immediately he left the USA to save all the extra onerous tax filings and other financial restrictions and requirements. A Green Card automatically expires anyway after a year or 2 away from the USA. His SS payments go directly into his UK bank.

Exactly the same situation as my mom. She got it as survivor to my father who was a naturalized citizen and worked USA. SS deposited into her account in Ireland for 40 years.

 

[Gumby]

Perhaps the rule would be different if I had once legally lived in the US and paid SS taxes(or was receiving as a survivor of someone who did) but was now in another country. But I was born in another country and live in the US right now, and the SSA told me they would need to see proof of my citizenship.

Edit: for what it's worth, here is an article discussing non-citizens and Social Security https://www.fool.com/retirement/gen...urity-5-surprising-facts-about-noncitize.aspx

 

[bmcgonig]

Actually, you do need to be a citizen, unless you have a green card (permanent resident alien) or meet a handful of other exemptions noted here https://www.ssa.gov/ssi/spotlights/spot-non-citizens.htm

If you were born in the US, you are automatically a citizen by virtue of the 14th Amendment. If you were born abroad, you can be a citizen under certain circumstances if one of your parents was a citizen. Otherwise, you need to be naturalized.

So, I told the SSA on my application that I was born abroad, but that I am a citizen. If I had said I was not a citizen, they would ask me for my green card, I'm sure.

SSI is different than SS though.

So interesting in the following document they say that a passport is sufficient. You need to follow the "proof of us citizenship link"

"If you are a U.S. Citizen born outside the U.S., we need to see a document such as a:

U.S. consular report of birth,
U.S. passport,
Certificate of Naturalization, or
Certificate of Citizenship."


https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/retirement/planner/applying5.html

 

[ivinsfan]

SSI is different than SS though.

So interesting in the following document they say that a passport is sufficient. You need to follow the "proof of us citizenship link"

"If you are a U.S. Citizen born outside the U.S., we need to see a document such as a:

U.S. consular report of birth,
U.S. passport,
Certificate of Naturalization, or
Certificate of Citizenship."


https://www.ssa.gov/benefits/retirement/planner/applying5.html

It might be what they say but it isn't what they do.

 

[Gumby]

The distinction between SSI and regular SS is irrelevant, I think. Let's return to basics so this doesn't get any more screwed up than it already is.

1. To be eligible for regular social security on your own account, you must have worked for the minimum number of quarters and paid into social security. That means you need a valid social security account/card. (you also need to be 62)

2. To get a social security account/card and lawfully work in the US, you need to either be a citizen or otherwise be lawfully in the US and have permission to work. If you are a citizen, you can prove that by a US birth certificate, Certificate of Naturalization, Certificate of Citizenship or, perhaps, a passport. If you are not a citizen, you need a green card (permanent resident alien status) or a visa that permits you to work. https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10096.pdf

3. So, yes, to be eligible for social security benefits on your own record, you need to be a citizen, or holder of a green card or a work visa while you were contributing to social security (as I said in post #28).

4. If you are a citizen, currently live overseas and are eligible for SS because you worked lawfully in the US for the requisite number of quarters and are at least 62, you can receive social security if you live anywhere but North Korea, Cuba and, with exemptions, a few other places (generally, the "-stans"). If you are a non-citizen otherwise eligible for social security (because you meet the work/age requirement), you can only receive SS if you live in a country with which the US has a treaty (mostly, they're in Europe). https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf

5. Rules for survivor benefits are slightly more complicated. But it should be obvious that the person from whom you are deriving your survivor benefits must have originally been eligible for them, meaning that he must have been a citizen, or otherwise lawfully working in the US (green card or appropriate visa allowing work) and that you currently live in a place where they can send payments.

6. None of the above really addresses the question of why the SSA currently needs proof of my citizenship when they were the ones who issued me a social security card many years ago. Nor does it address the logistical problem of showing it to them when the offices are currently closed.

 

[skipro33]

Regarding FAX machines. My printer has FAX functionality. I'm sure I didn't pay more than $100 total for this printer. It's also wireless. Anyone visiting my home can access and use the printer.

 

[ShokWaveRider]

Regarding FAX machines. My printer has FAX functionality. I'm sure I didn't pay more than $100 total for this printer. It's also wireless. Anyone visiting my home can access and use the printer.

Cost is not the issue, not many people have LAND LINES anymore. They just use their Cell phones. Thanks to TMobile's Over 55 plans .

 

[PaunchyPirate]

Regarding FAX machines. My printer has FAX functionality. I'm sure I didn't pay more than $100 total for this printer. It's also wireless. Anyone visiting my home can access and use the printer.

True. My printers are always the blended printer/scanner/fax machine type. If only I had a land line phone in the house to hook it to.

 

[Alan]

Cost is not the issue, not many people have LAND LINES anymore. They just use their Cell phones. Thanks to TMobile's Over 55 plans .

Exactly. 12 years at least since we gave up our landline.

Some years back our bank in the USA required a document signing and faxing to them. I convinced them that faxing was “so last century “ and they allowed me to scan in a signed copy of the document and email it to them.

 

[skipro33]

FAX provides a hard, physical copy instantly with no further intervention on SS's behalf. I'm sure that's why they do it this way and not a 'soft' copy; email, photo, etc.
I had the same issue with a credit card fraud case. I had to fax my driver license to prove who I was. I offered to take a photo and message, email or what ever, but they said no. So I FAXed the thing and got this cleared up quick.

BTW, my 'land line' is via Comcast/Xfinity. I have some sort of Triply Play plan that includes internet, TV and a phone. It was only about $6 more for the phone. I like having a separate line for the house that is not mine or my wife's personal cell phone. When I expect calls I'd like her to answer if I'm not available, and visa versa, I give the house number. Plus, our cell coverage at home is too spotty. O.K. for messaging but dropped or not at all for voice. The land line gives us reliable home phone. Oh, and 911 addressing.

 

[bmcgonig]

Is this citizenship proof also needed to apply for Medicare? I'm also naturalized and have no idea where my papers are at the moment.

 

[Alan]

Is this citizenship proof also needed to apply for Medicare? I'm also naturalized and have no idea where my papers are at the moment.

Yes, and a US passport was not good enough, the same as when I applied for ACA. I had to provide my Naturalization Certificate in both cases, and of course I had to provide my Naturalization Certificate to get my US Passport. Fortunately to get my US passport renewed I only needed to provide my US passport.

Crazy!

 

[braumeister]

As we used to say when I was part of it, you can't run a bureaucracy without bureaucrats.

 

[smihaila]

Sending FAX-es over "landlines" may be problematic sometimes, for those having VoIP-based phone lines. Even if the signal quality can easily surpass FAX transmission requirements, some VoIP providers purposely disallow faxes, so that they can make more money on you by forcing you to buy a separate "fax-enabled" phone number.

OP, another way to deal with the SSA paperwork, is to go to any FedEx office and notarize each of the original document. It usually costs $5 / document. And then you would send photocopies (scan) of the original documents plus of those separate notarize copies from a FedEx. FedEx offices usually have a public licensed notary on site (even during covid-1984).

 

[meierlde]

Not yet. I just applied on-line this morning. You would think the government could communicate among the various entities - the Department of Defense knows that I am a citizen from the days when I served in the Navy and had a Top Secret clearance; the State Department, having issued me a passport, knows I'm a citizen; the Department of Energy, having granted me unescorted access to nuclear power plants, also knows I'm a citizen. Why that information can't make it to the Social Security Administration is a mystery to me. Or they could check with the State of Connecticut, which checked my citizenship three times - when I was admitted to the bar, became employed as an assistant attorney general and got a pistol permit.

Actually for us born citizens the passport is an acceptable form of id in all cases Its just that there is a fear of putting all the information together might mean a more survellance oriented society.

 

[bmcgonig]

Yes, and a US passport was not good enough, the same as when I applied for ACA. I had to provide my Naturalization Certificate in both cases, and of course I had to provide my Naturalization Certificate to get my US Passport. Fortunately to get my US passport renewed I only needed to provide my US passport.

Crazy!

I guess I lucked out when applying for ACA. Don't remember any requirements.
I'll be applying for Medicare in February. I'll come back with an update.