Are You Middle Class (Calculator)?

[street]

Income for me is very little but doesn't show the whole picture with the calculator. I'm a pauper in a sense but is a false view.

I'm by no means a rich person financially.

 

[aaronc879]

This calculator was clearly intended for those who are still working full time rather than retired folks.

Due to my chronic pain I have been doing almost no work at all so I am lower class for income. I assume I would fall into middle class for net worth although much lower than anyone else on this forum.

 

[brett]

Does it matter?

Never understood why people are so concerned about where they sit on the this so called scale or the income scale. Where they live, what vehicles they drive. It has always seemed like insecurity to me.

Will it alter your self image, will it increase your financial resources?

One garage across the street has two new BNW's in the drive. A 5 and an SUV. The one beside it has a brand new Audi SUV and for shame a four year old Merc SUV. Beside us....Acuras.

Do we care that we drive a 2006 Accord and a 2007 Solara? No. But is this a good gauge of our financial resources, our pre retirement income levels, or our past level of employment? Whether we are middle class, lower middle class, upper middle class? I don't knw....but who really cares?

 

[Phroig]

I’m in the same boat as the other posters who are still working. There’s a difference between an arbitrary calculator classifying you as high income for where you live, and feeling like you’re rich. Rich to me is Mcmansions and country homes, Bentleys, and private jets. I’ll never have that kind of money. That’s OK.

 

[Car-Guy]

All of these calculators say I'm well into the upper class (financially ) Sure doesn't feel like it.

When I drive through a big city I see so many new fancy high dollar "homes/neighborhoods" and lot's of very expensive cars running around. Are all (or most) of those bought with borrowed money?

 

[SumDay]

Duh....

Your household has a much higher income than most in your Zip code.

 

[Sue J]

In our area our household income is right in the middle. Since our area has a lot of families my guess is that they are still working and have a mortgage payment. We don't have a mortgage payment so our middle sized income seems quite comfortable.

As for "class", that's another discussion!

 

[Koolau]

Heh, heh, I'll just revert to my old adage. I have enough.

 

[audreyh1]

So what is my income? When I was working, I was clearly over middle income. Now, I think of my spend as essentially a surrogate for my income. I could use our SS and pension but that doesn’t capture interest and dividends and then there’s capital gains which if unrecognized I guess shouldn’t be counted.

Since it doesn’t consider net worth, I think it’s missing a big piece. There’s probably multi millionaires on this site that hardly have any income (recognized) and spend very little but who are clearly middle class or more.

FWIW, it said I’m basically middle class though I can attest that if it wasn’t for low class, I’d have no class at all.

I would just use household taxable income as I think the IRS statistics are generally used for these kinds of classifications.

 

[LateToFIRE]

All of these calculators say I'm well into the upper class (financially ) Sure doesn't feel like it.

When I drive through a big city I see so many new fancy high dollar "homes/neighborhoods" and lot's of very expensive cars running around. Are all (or most) of those bought with borrowed money?

Two thoughts on your comments/questions:

1) Why don't you feel upper class (financially)? Doesn't feel like it because we humans tend to accept our present circumstances as "normal" (see "hedonic adaptation). Also, it's all relative and we tend to compare ourselves to those further up the ladder, rather than those down the ladder. Hence, in our own heads, we're always thinking we're in the middle.

2) Are all those big homes and fancy cars bought on borrowed money? Yes, and no, and everything in between. For sure, there are a lot of people living high on the hog on borrowed money. But, I have also seen that there is unbelievable wealth out there, far more than you can actually see. And I don't mean the folks you see in headlines, I mean, folks worth $10mm, $50mm, $200mm... statistically rare, yes, but in high concentrations in the big coastal cities, living upper middle-class lifestyles. Also, at those wealth levels, debt is utilized as a tool, not a crutch. The wealthy absolutely love using OPM (other people's money).

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

Agreed. All references to 'Class' in this regard should be permanently replaced with 'Income.'

'Class' denotes behavior. There is no intrinsic correlation between income level and class, i.e. behavior.

Or elongate Class to what it probably was originally- Classified. (Higher (Income) Classified, Middle (Income) Classified, Lower (Income) Classified.

If you read Bridges out of Poverty it explains the difference in people’s priorities and thought processes based on being in poverty vs middle income vs wealthy.
It’s actually very interesting and is helpful when you are working with people in poverty- as I was.
The middle class often looks at people in poverty and can’t understand why they make the choices that they do but there are actual human reasons for their choices and the majority of us would do the same if we were in chronic poverty.
Of course this is a generalization and there will be exceptions but I can tell you from 35 years of working with people in poverty- who grew up in poverty and poverty is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making.

 

[street]

If you read Bridges out of Poverty it explains the difference in people’s priorities and thought processes based on being in poverty vs middle income vs wealthy.
It’s actually very interesting and is helpful when you are working with people in poverty- as I was.
The middle class often looks at people in poverty and can’t understand why they make the choices that they do but there are actual human reasons for their choices and the majority of us would do the same if we were in chronic poverty.
Of course this is a generalization and there will be exceptions but I can tell you from 35 years of working with people in poverty- who grew up in poverty and poverty is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making.

Very interesting! Just living and seeing poverty all your life I can see that same pattern of living continue. Not an easy road going forward.

 

[Jerry1]

Of course this is a generalization and there will be exceptions but I can tell you from 35 years of working with people in poverty- who grew up in poverty and poverty is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making.

Very interesting! Just living and seeing poverty all your life I can see that same pattern of living continue. Not an easy road going forward.

I think the same is true at any level. I’m sure that people who grew up in wealth and wealth is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making. My guess is that most people don’t move too far from what they’re born into. Of course a lot seem too, but I bet statistically most do not.

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

[/B]



I think the same is true at any level. I’m sure that people who grew up in wealth and wealth is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making. My guess is that most people don’t move too far from what they’re born into. Of course a lot seem too, but I bet statistically most do not.

The book Bridges out of Poverty also goes into the behavior of wealthy people. They definitely have their own ways that may seem foreign to others.
But I didn’t focus too much on that because I didn’t work with wealthy people. [emoji23]

 

[Koolau]

The book Bridges out of Poverty also goes into the behavior of wealthy people. They definitely have their own ways that may seem foreign to others.
But I didn’t focus too much on that because I didn’t work with wealthy people. [emoji23]

It's all very interesting and I'm sure there are undergraduate and graduate university courses that study poverty and wealth. But I don't see this as germane to the discussion of "what is middle class" and the current question "are you middle class" in terms of income and/or savings.

Once again, I'll mention my BFF who is half a million in debt at age 78 (NW - minus $500,000.) HE lives a middle class life. Nice house, nice cars, toys, travel, eating out, etc. He and I w*rked at the same megacorp and though our w*rk assignments were quite different, we made about the same money.

SO, is such a person "middle class" because he couldn't handle money and is deeply in debt - yet gets pension and his/hers SS that allows a very nice life style?

 

[Irishgirlyc58]

It's all very interesting and I'm sure there are undergraduate and graduate university courses that study poverty and wealth. But I don't see this as germane to the discussion of "what is middle class" and the current question "are you middle class" in terms of income and/or savings.

Once again, I'll mention my BFF who is half a million in debt at age 78 (NW - minus $500,000.) HE lives a middle class life. Nice house, nice cars, toys, travel, eating out, etc. He and I w*rked at the same megacorp and though our w*rk assignments were quite different, we made about the same money.

SO, is such a person "middle class" because he couldn't handle money and is deeply in debt - yet gets pension and his/hers SS that allows a very nice life style?

The differences are germane to the comment up thread that economic status doesn’t determine behavior- or something there about.
It does a disservice to people in poverty to think that there are no differences in the same way it’s a disservice to compare the majority of us to Oprah or Bezos lifestyles.

Regarding your BFF- you would need to provide more information including how he grew up.

 

[LateToFIRE]

The differences are germane to the comment up thread that economic status doesn’t determine behavior- or something there about.
It does a disservice to people in poverty to think that there are no differences in the same way it’s a disservice to compare the majority of us to Oprah or Bezos lifestyles.

I've experienced and lived among both poverty and wealth. I can confirm there are very fundamental differences in how each makes decisions, perceives society and their place in it.

 

[Amethyst]

Well, let's put it this way. I grew up in a lower-middle-class, you might say working-class, household. One of my parents had been an impoverished immigrant, while the other didn't make it to 10th grade. Yet they were the best-behaved, classiest people around, with educated vocabularies (they both read a lot), good manners, and straight posture. They spoke in the same kind way to rich and poor alike. They would've known how to act at a State dinner, had they ever been invited.

I am the first generation in my family to attend college. I married someone from a similar background to mine; together, we worked and saved our way into the "upper middle" class. Yet I consider myself and my late husband no higher "class" than my parents.

The only difference is income and assets. And should bad luck cause me to lose my financial standing, I hope I'll still be a classy person.

"Should"? According to whom? Do we now change the dictionary as well? If we do, how do we make sense of the tens of millions of references to "class" that still exist and are a treasure trove of data in our past literature? Imagine your kid is doing a paper on the "new word" for middle class. When she Googles that new word - virtually nothing will come up. Her base of data will encompass 2023 forward. Not very useful.

Pretty soon, we'll have references like "Income Classified at Lower Levels than Average" and then someone will object to the word "average" as being applied to a human. It won't end if we start changing the language now every time someone imagines a word to be derogatory. Every word is probably derogatory in someone's mind.

I'm not a big fan of changing words that have been around for a long time with their meanings well understood - by anyone willing to understand rather than looking to be offended. That someone might now be offended by the word "class" is unfortunate, but not enough reason to come up with a new and improved, shiny, sanitized word that (in this case) primarily means economic status, denoted by income. We use "class" because we know it means "economic status denoted by income" and it's a heck of a lot easier to say "class" than "economic status denoted by income." And, we've been using it that way for 100 years or more.

I've grown up with the word "class" and have never given it a second thought about referring to anyone's behavior or societal value. That someone now does take the time to think about various connotations of the word, doesn't mean we have to change the word. That can get old pretty quickly. 'Cause then we'll soon be off to the next, new, more appropriate, acceptable word when someone new is offended by the old "new" word. Lower, middle and upper class have been around as long as I can recall and they've been used in news articles, economic studies and every-day speech as long as I can remember and I easily remember their use back to the 50s. I don't recall them ever being used as derogatory references. No word is perfect and every word can be misused. Having said that, lower class, middle class and upper class have come to be well understood whether someone can find a way to make them sound derogatory or not. Of course, since we all think differently about such things, YMMV.

 

[jazz4cash]

I wish the article had been titled “Do you Have a Middle Class Income?”

 

[ncbill]

Class should be considered in relation to time horizon, not income.

E.g. "high-class people plan for three generations, low-class people for Saturday night."

 

[Alex The Great]

Well, with my current income I'm in top 5 percent. But I know in a reality I'm really poor because going to retire soon
I think I need to write another book: Bridges into Poverty.

 

[GenXguy]

"Should"? According to whom? Do we now change the dictionary as well? If we do, how do we make sense of the tens of millions of references to "class" that still exist and are a treasure trove of data in our past literature? Imagine your kid is doing a paper on the "new word" for middle class. When she Googles that new word - virtually nothing will come up. Her base of data will encompass 2023 forward. Not very useful.

Pretty soon, we'll have references like "Income Classified at Lower Levels than Average" and then someone will object to the word "average" as being applied to a human. It won't end if we start changing the language now every time someone imagines a word to be derogatory. Every word is probably derogatory in someone's mind.

I'm not a big fan of changing words that have been around for a long time with their meanings well understood - by anyone willing to understand rather than looking to be offended. That someone might now be offended by the word "class" is unfortunate, but not enough reason to come up with a new and improved, shiny, sanitized word that (in this case) primarily means economic status, denoted by income. We use "class" because we know it means "economic status denoted by income" and it's a heck of a lot easier to say "class" than "economic status denoted by income." And, we've been using it that way for 100 years or more.

I've grown up with the word "class" and have never given it a second thought about referring to anyone's behavior or societal value. That someone now does take the time to think about various connotations of the word, doesn't mean we have to change the word. That can get old pretty quickly. 'Cause then we'll soon be off to the next, new, more appropriate, acceptable word when someone new is offended by the old "new" word. Lower, middle and upper class have been around as long as I can recall and they've been used in news articles, economic studies and every-day speech as long as I can remember and I easily remember their use back to the 50s. I don't recall them ever being used as derogatory references. No word is perfect and every word can be misused. Having said that, lower class, middle class and upper class have come to be well understood whether someone can find a way to make them sound derogatory or not. Of course, since we all think differently about such things, YMMV.

Nice post. I agree. A lot of times people just want to complain and make things more complicated.

 

[Koolau]

The differences are germane to the comment up thread that economic status doesn’t determine behavior- or something there about.
It does a disservice to people in poverty to think that there are no differences in the same way it’s a disservice to compare the majority of us to Oprah or Bezos lifestyles.

Regarding your BFF- you would need to provide more information including how he grew up.

First of all, I haven't seen anyone suggest that middle class status does or doesn't determine behavior. Maybe I missed it or ignored it It actually probably does to some extent (I sure acted differently when I didn't have an extra dime in college. The term "ramen noodles" comes to mind.) The term "middle class" does not discuss, denote or connote behavior. It's a technical term that (clearly from our discussion) is not as well defined without official parameters attached. That's what we started out to do. Come up with the parameters as contained in someone's "calculator." YMMV on that.

My point is that we currently have a perfectly good, 100+ year old term for "how much money people have." Changing it because someone thinks the word is now problematic, only leads to more problems - not less. I pointed out those problems in (what turned out to be) my rant so I won't go over it again.

My BFF started out just like I did - lower middle class. His dad was a good earner, but a drunk and womanizer. All this caused what should have been a middle class life to be lower middle class life style.

My parents both lost their j*bs after the war in defense plants because my mom was (guess what) female. My dad lost his j*b because he wasn't a veteran because he was profoundly disabled and couldn't have joined the military (But I wouldn't have wanted to go up against him!!)

So my parents scraped together $400 and started a business that is still thriving today (3rd generation.) And therefore, I started out lower middle class - just like my BFF.

 

[Koolau]

The only difference is income and assets. And should bad luck cause me to lose my financial standing, I hope I'll still be a classy person.

And, hence the term "middle class" based on financial standing, income and assets. Not on how one was raised or how much they used to have when a child nor how they behave nor their attitudes nor heritage nor value to society. It's just a financial term, coined and "defined" long ago. It's still useful because virtually everyone knows what it means (even if we still struggle to define it in dollar terms.)

 

[street]

"Should"? According to whom? Do we now change the dictionary as well? If we do, how do we make sense of the tens of millions of references to "class" that still exist and are a treasure trove of data in our past literature? Imagine your kid is doing a paper on the "new word" for middle class. When she Googles that new word - virtually nothing will come up. Her base of data will encompass 2023 forward. Not very useful.

Pretty soon, we'll have references like "Income Classified at Lower Levels than Average" and then someone will object to the word "average" as being applied to a human. It won't end if we start changing the language now every time someone imagines a word to be derogatory. Every word is probably derogatory in someone's mind.

I'm not a big fan of changing words that have been around for a long time with their meanings well understood - by anyone willing to understand rather than looking to be offended. That someone might now be offended by the word "class" is unfortunate, but not enough reason to come up with a new and improved, shiny, sanitized word that (in this case) primarily means economic status, denoted by income. We use "class" because we know it means "economic status denoted by income" and it's a heck of a lot easier to say "class" than "economic status denoted by income." And, we've been using it that way for 100 years or more.

I've grown up with the word "class" and have never given it a second thought about referring to anyone's behavior or societal value. That someone now does take the time to think about various connotations of the word, doesn't mean we have to change the word. That can get old pretty quickly. 'Cause then we'll soon be off to the next, new, more appropriate, acceptable word when someone new is offended by the old "new" word. Lower, middle and upper class have been around as long as I can recall and they've been used in news articles, economic studies and every-day speech as long as I can remember and I easily remember their use back to the 50s. I don't recall them ever being used as derogatory references. No word is perfect and every word can be misused. Having said that, lower class, middle class and upper class have come to be well understood whether someone can find a way to make them sound derogatory or not. Of course, since we all think differently about such things, YMMV.

Yes, very well stated and agree.