I would just use household taxable income as I think the IRS statistics are generally used for these kinds of classifications.So what is my income? When I was working, I was clearly over middle income. Now, I think of my spend as essentially a surrogate for my income. I could use our SS and pension but that doesn’t capture interest and dividends and then there’s capital gains which if unrecognized I guess shouldn’t be counted.
Since it doesn’t consider net worth, I think it’s missing a big piece. There’s probably multi millionaires on this site that hardly have any income (recognized) and spend very little but who are clearly middle class or more.
FWIW, it said I’m basically middle class though I can attest that if it wasn’t for low class, I’d have no class at all.
All of these calculators say I'm well into the upper class (financially ) Sure doesn't feel like it.
When I drive through a big city I see so many new fancy high dollar "homes/neighborhoods" and lot's of very expensive cars running around. Are all (or most) of those bought with borrowed money?
Agreed. All references to 'Class' in this regard should be permanently replaced with 'Income.'
'Class' denotes behavior. There is no intrinsic correlation between income level and class, i.e. behavior.
Or elongate Class to what it probably was originally- Classified. (Higher (Income) Classified, Middle (Income) Classified, Lower (Income) Classified.
If you read Bridges out of Poverty it explains the difference in people’s priorities and thought processes based on being in poverty vs middle income vs wealthy.
It’s actually very interesting and is helpful when you are working with people in poverty- as I was.
The middle class often looks at people in poverty and can’t understand why they make the choices that they do but there are actual human reasons for their choices and the majority of us would do the same if we were in chronic poverty.
Of course this is a generalization and there will be exceptions but I can tell you from 35 years of working with people in poverty- who grew up in poverty and poverty is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making.
Of course this is a generalization and there will be exceptions but I can tell you from 35 years of working with people in poverty- who grew up in poverty and poverty is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making.
Very interesting! Just living and seeing poverty all your life I can see that same pattern of living continue. Not an easy road going forward.
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I think the same is true at any level. I’m sure that people who grew up in wealth and wealth is all they have known that there is a difference in how they navigate life with their decision making. My guess is that most people don’t move too far from what they’re born into. Of course a lot seem too, but I bet statistically most do not.
The book Bridges out of Poverty also goes into the behavior of wealthy people. They definitely have their own ways that may seem foreign to others.
But I didn’t focus too much on that because I didn’t work with wealthy people. [emoji23]
It's all very interesting and I'm sure there are undergraduate and graduate university courses that study poverty and wealth. But I don't see this as germane to the discussion of "what is middle class" and the current question "are you middle class" in terms of income and/or savings.
Once again, I'll mention my BFF who is half a million in debt at age 78 (NW - minus $500,000.) HE lives a middle class life. Nice house, nice cars, toys, travel, eating out, etc. He and I w*rked at the same megacorp and though our w*rk assignments were quite different, we made about the same money.
SO, is such a person "middle class" because he couldn't handle money and is deeply in debt - yet gets pension and his/hers SS that allows a very nice life style?
The differences are germane to the comment up thread that economic status doesn’t determine behavior- or something there about.
It does a disservice to people in poverty to think that there are no differences in the same way it’s a disservice to compare the majority of us to Oprah or Bezos lifestyles.
"Should"? According to whom? Do we now change the dictionary as well? If we do, how do we make sense of the tens of millions of references to "class" that still exist and are a treasure trove of data in our past literature? Imagine your kid is doing a paper on the "new word" for middle class. When she Googles that new word - virtually nothing will come up. Her base of data will encompass 2023 forward. Not very useful.
Pretty soon, we'll have references like "Income Classified at Lower Levels than Average" and then someone will object to the word "average" as being applied to a human. It won't end if we start changing the language now every time someone imagines a word to be derogatory. Every word is probably derogatory in someone's mind.
I'm not a big fan of changing words that have been around for a long time with their meanings well understood - by anyone willing to understand rather than looking to be offended. That someone might now be offended by the word "class" is unfortunate, but not enough reason to come up with a new and improved, shiny, sanitized word that (in this case) primarily means economic status, denoted by income. We use "class" because we know it means "economic status denoted by income" and it's a heck of a lot easier to say "class" than "economic status denoted by income." And, we've been using it that way for 100 years or more.
I've grown up with the word "class" and have never given it a second thought about referring to anyone's behavior or societal value. That someone now does take the time to think about various connotations of the word, doesn't mean we have to change the word. That can get old pretty quickly. 'Cause then we'll soon be off to the next, new, more appropriate, acceptable word when someone new is offended by the old "new" word. Lower, middle and upper class have been around as long as I can recall and they've been used in news articles, economic studies and every-day speech as long as I can remember and I easily remember their use back to the 50s. I don't recall them ever being used as derogatory references. No word is perfect and every word can be misused. Having said that, lower class, middle class and upper class have come to be well understood whether someone can find a way to make them sound derogatory or not. Of course, since we all think differently about such things, YMMV.
"Should"? According to whom? Do we now change the dictionary as well? If we do, how do we make sense of the tens of millions of references to "class" that still exist and are a treasure trove of data in our past literature? Imagine your kid is doing a paper on the "new word" for middle class. When she Googles that new word - virtually nothing will come up. Her base of data will encompass 2023 forward. Not very useful.
Pretty soon, we'll have references like "Income Classified at Lower Levels than Average" and then someone will object to the word "average" as being applied to a human. It won't end if we start changing the language now every time someone imagines a word to be derogatory. Every word is probably derogatory in someone's mind.
I'm not a big fan of changing words that have been around for a long time with their meanings well understood - by anyone willing to understand rather than looking to be offended. That someone might now be offended by the word "class" is unfortunate, but not enough reason to come up with a new and improved, shiny, sanitized word that (in this case) primarily means economic status, denoted by income. We use "class" because we know it means "economic status denoted by income" and it's a heck of a lot easier to say "class" than "economic status denoted by income." And, we've been using it that way for 100 years or more.
I've grown up with the word "class" and have never given it a second thought about referring to anyone's behavior or societal value. That someone now does take the time to think about various connotations of the word, doesn't mean we have to change the word. That can get old pretty quickly. 'Cause then we'll soon be off to the next, new, more appropriate, acceptable word when someone new is offended by the old "new" word. Lower, middle and upper class have been around as long as I can recall and they've been used in news articles, economic studies and every-day speech as long as I can remember and I easily remember their use back to the 50s. I don't recall them ever being used as derogatory references. No word is perfect and every word can be misused. Having said that, lower class, middle class and upper class have come to be well understood whether someone can find a way to make them sound derogatory or not. Of course, since we all think differently about such things, YMMV.
The differences are germane to the comment up thread that economic status doesn’t determine behavior- or something there about.
It does a disservice to people in poverty to think that there are no differences in the same way it’s a disservice to compare the majority of us to Oprah or Bezos lifestyles.
Regarding your BFF- you would need to provide more information including how he grew up.
The only difference is income and assets. And should bad luck cause me to lose my financial standing, I hope I'll still be a classy person.
Yes, very well stated and agree."Should"? According to whom? Do we now change the dictionary as well? If we do, how do we make sense of the tens of millions of references to "class" that still exist and are a treasure trove of data in our past literature? Imagine your kid is doing a paper on the "new word" for middle class. When she Googles that new word - virtually nothing will come up. Her base of data will encompass 2023 forward. Not very useful.
Pretty soon, we'll have references like "Income Classified at Lower Levels than Average" and then someone will object to the word "average" as being applied to a human. It won't end if we start changing the language now every time someone imagines a word to be derogatory. Every word is probably derogatory in someone's mind.
I'm not a big fan of changing words that have been around for a long time with their meanings well understood - by anyone willing to understand rather than looking to be offended. That someone might now be offended by the word "class" is unfortunate, but not enough reason to come up with a new and improved, shiny, sanitized word that (in this case) primarily means economic status, denoted by income. We use "class" because we know it means "economic status denoted by income" and it's a heck of a lot easier to say "class" than "economic status denoted by income." And, we've been using it that way for 100 years or more.
I've grown up with the word "class" and have never given it a second thought about referring to anyone's behavior or societal value. That someone now does take the time to think about various connotations of the word, doesn't mean we have to change the word. That can get old pretty quickly. 'Cause then we'll soon be off to the next, new, more appropriate, acceptable word when someone new is offended by the old "new" word. Lower, middle and upper class have been around as long as I can recall and they've been used in news articles, economic studies and every-day speech as long as I can remember and I easily remember their use back to the 50s. I don't recall them ever being used as derogatory references. No word is perfect and every word can be misused. Having said that, lower class, middle class and upper class have come to be well understood whether someone can find a way to make them sound derogatory or not. Of course, since we all think differently about such things, YMMV.