renters for life a question

Thank you for admitting this.


As I mentioned, I have lived in a rent stabilized apartment since 1994. My rent increases are based on what the Rent Guidelines Board approves each year for 1 and 2 year leases. Over that 30 year time frame it's averaged out to be 2.5% which I'm fine with.

However , at every yearly hearing cry me a river landlords always claim they "cant make any money" which is obviously complete BS.

It's either a lack of knowledge or an excessive amount of arrogance for someone enjoying rent control to say that landlords that complain about rent controls are full of BS.
 
It's either a lack of knowledge or an excessive amount of arrogance for someone enjoying rent control to say that landlords that complain about rent controls are full of BS.


Attend one of the hearings and maybe you'll see my point better.
 
What is your point other than a person should not be allowed to charge market value for their product?

Landlords at the meeting always play the woe is me narrative and claim they “ can’t make money” without substantial rent hikes. It’s a joke. They make money, but not as much . Again, they play the victim.
 
Landlords at the meeting always play the woe is me narrative and claim they “ can’t make money” without substantial rent hikes. It’s a joke. They make money, but not as much . Again, they play the victim.

Obviously you have never owned a business. The party that is not allowed to charge fair market rate for their product IS the victim.
 
Obviously you have never owned a business. The party that is not allowed to charge fair market rate for their product IS the victim.

I see we have another 3 AM bar room internet tough guy on the board
Have a good day.
 
And there you have it. I rented from when I graduated college in 1980 until my first house in 1986. Typical. Never rented again. I always bought (after finding a location I wanted) and have owned and sold 6 houses & the difference between the cost of renting vs owning the same comparable was always cheaper owning, as appreciation pretty much always meant the cost of the sold house was nothing. However, in my case, sweat equity was real. Not real expensive, but the ROI on my work performed always paid off handsomely. There is NO WAY I would have retired with as much NW had I rented vs owning. But luck was also with me, as I always sold in an up market, and bought fixer uppers that seemed obvious good investments to me. Like many here, I have a skill set and have never paid a carpenter, plumber or electrician. And anything I paid for (a paved driveway once for instance), easily return more than the cost. I earned that equity with the banks money, with the equivalent mortgage interest easily paid for by investment returns of the same financed amount. So the loans cost me nothing, or even negative, but I kept the appreciation, which was typically way more than the principal paid during the mortgage time.

The current home was bought new, for $650k in 2018, with $200k down, entirely from the proceeds of the previous house, which were about $300k net. Retired at 61 in 2019. Mortgage & taxes, & HOI, have been about $2300/mo. So I have paid about $138,000 P&I, taxes and insurance in 5 years. The house has appreciated over $200k. Currently enjoying the last roughly 3 years at 2.75% mortgage. Rent of the same home is about $3500/m, if you can find one.

So in a like for like comparison it is a no brainer. So it most definitely is a YMMV situation.

You framed the topic very nicely - plenty of food for thought. I keep fairly decent records, so could do the calc of rent vs buy comparison.

Back of the envelope, for the home I'm sitting in right now, owned for 10 years, I've paid (rounded numbers):

- $250K in mortgage interest
- $100K in property taxes
- $50K in property insurance
- $100K in routine grounds/pool maintenance
- $100K in upgrades, landscaping, etc. (mostly unnecessary)
-----------
- $600K Total Owning Expense


House was fairly new, lightly used when bought it so none of the upgrades were really necessary, just adjusting the home/grounds to our tastes, and repairs have been negligible. I'm excluding furnishings and such, as those would be expenses no matter renting vs buying.

On the plus side of the column would be:

+ $500K market value appreciation (according to Zillow, but market is currently greater than this)
+ $1,000K rent avoidance (based on local MD to LD seasonal rental rates)
+ $140K tax breaks
------------
+ $1,640K Total Benefits

+ $1,040K net benefit

Now the wildcard is how should I think about how I would have invested if I had rented vs buying. Certainly, my $200K down payment would have tripled over the past 10 years if invested in SP500 - I got $727K from one calculator.

So, I'd be the first to admit that $1M vs $727K is close enough in my book. The costs are tangible - the benefits more squishy though tried to be conservative.

Should I have simply rented? In my case, no, this is the house I'm going to stay in next 20 years, and I would not feel comfortable with the uncertainty involved in a rental. Plus, I get to customize it to our precise needs. This is just one illustration, really just to share my thought process.

As others have said, YMMV.
 
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Facts are tough, aren't they?

Don't take the bait. NYC is a bizarre intersection of rabid socialism and rabid capitalism (and I'm not even trying to be political here). The two have been and will be at each others throats til the end of time.

My view - the owners of properties with regulated tenants knew what they were getting into when they bought those properties (presumably at a discount).

And as I have pointed out previously, the distortion of rent control creates scarcity in the non-regulated market, which allows me to charge more than I otherwise could. So, I'm not complaining. It's whacky system, but whad-evah.
 
MODERATOR NOTE: If you guys want to continue the battle over rent control, do it by PM. The rest of us are tired of hearing about it.
 
Thank you for admitting this.


As I mentioned, I have lived in a rent stabilized apartment since 1994. My rent increases are based on what the Rent Guidelines Board approves each year for 1 and 2 year leases. Over that 30 year time frame it's averaged out to be 2.5% which I'm fine with.

However , at every yearly hearing cry me a river landlords always claim they "cant make any money" which is obviously complete BS.
I meant to say I made money because I was able to charge market rent. I would *NEVER* buy a rental property in a rent controlled area. You can't make money in a rent controlled area. Period.

Example: My real estate tax + insurance goes up by 3-10% every year so I have to increase the rent by at least that much. Even then, if I make any repairs then I am loosing money. So yes, your landlord is probably loosing money every year.
 
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You get a deal only because someone passed an unfair law that benefits you at someone else's expense.



I imagine if it was the other way around, instead of bragging you'd be irate.



Another way to see it is taking the risk to move to an undesirable location many years ago. Eg I bought this stock when nobody wanted it.
 
Thank you for admitting this.


As I mentioned, I have lived in a rent stabilized apartment since 1994. My rent increases are based on what the Rent Guidelines Board approves each year for 1 and 2 year leases. Over that 30 year time frame it's averaged out to be 2.5% which I'm fine with.

However , at every yearly hearing cry me a river landlords always claim they "cant make any money" which is obviously complete BS.



Well they are not making any money from you.

I am both a renter and landlord. My rent is not controlled but also has not increased in 10 years. That is why we keep renting.
 
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Of course nothing is 100% certain and there are outlier situations (such as the rent control we are hearing so much about in this thread!), but a very good rule of thumb for which is better for your finances is this:

The longer you continue owning the same home the better owning is compared to renting.

There are two reasons for this.

One is the high transaction costs you incur when buying and selling - especially selling - a home. Agent fee, escrow fee, excise/transfer tax (most states), title insurance, inspector's fee, loan-related costs, etc. There used to be a longstanding rule of thumb that because of these costs you should not buy a home if you won't keep it at least 5 years.

The other reason has already been mentioned in this thread. The typical fixed-rate mortgage is structured so that the monthly payments are the same in nominal dollars from beginning to end. This means your first payment is almost totally interest and reduces your principal (debt) very little. Each subsequent payment pays down your debt a little faster, and your last payment is almost totally principal (i.e. debt reduction). Inflation usually reduces the real value of your monthly payment over time, as well, but that's a separate effect - icing on the cake, as it were.
 
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Of course nothing is 100% certain and there are outlier situations (such as the rent control we are hearing so much about in this thread!), but a very good rule of thumb for which is better for your finances is this:

The longer you continue owning the same home the better owning is compared to renting.

There are two reasons for this.

One is the high transaction costs you incur when buying and selling - especially selling - a home. Agent fee, escrow fee, excise/transfer tax (most states), title insurance, inspector's fee, loan-related costs, etc. There used to be a longstanding rule of thumb that because of these costs you should not buy a home if you won't keep it at least 5 years.

The other reason has already been mentioned in this thread. The typical fixed-rate mortgage is structured so that the monthly payments are the same in nominal dollars from beginning to end. This means your first payment is almost totally interest and reduces your principal (debt) very little. Each subsequent payment pays down your debt a little faster, and your last payment is almost totally principal. Plus if inflation reduces the real value of your monthly payment over time (as it usually does), that's just icing on the cake.
The last home I sold went up 50% in value in 6 years making the transaction costs inconsequential in the overall scheme of things. Also inspection costs are usually covered by the buyer.
 
The last home I sold went up 50% in value in 6 years making the transaction costs inconsequential in the overall scheme of things.
We do live in interesting times...boom, then bust, then boom, then ? At any rate, the benefit of such price appreciation generally only accrues to those willing to sell their homes and rent for as long as it takes until prices soften again. I know someone who tried to do that, but he couldn't hold out long enough - it wasn't much fun renting, he discovered.

Also inspection costs are usually covered by the buyer.
Were you not a buyer at the start of those 6 years? Seems to me every home's lifecycle cost includes buying costs (at the start) AND selling costs (at the end).
 
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We do live in interesting times...boom, then bust, then boom, then ?




Were you not a buyer at the start of those 6 years? Seems to me every home's lifecycle cost includes buying costs (at the start) AND selling costs (at the end).

The way you worded it “especially selling - a home. Agent fee, escrow fee, excise/transfer tax (most states), title insurance, inspector's fee, “ made it sound like you were applying those fees to the seller.
 
You framed the topic very nicely - plenty of food for thought. I keep fairly decent records, so could do the calc of rent vs buy comparison.

Back of the envelope, for the home I'm sitting in right now, owned for 10 years, I've paid (rounded numbers):

- $250K in mortgage interest
- $100K in property taxes
- $50K in property insurance
- $100K in routine grounds/pool maintenance
- $100K in upgrades, landscaping, etc. (mostly unnecessary)
-----------
- $600K Total Owning Expense


House was fairly new, lightly used when bought it so none of the upgrades were really necessary, just adjusting the home/grounds to our tastes, and repairs have been negligible. I'm excluding furnishings and such, as those would be expenses no matter renting vs buying.

On the plus side of the column would be:

+ $500K market value appreciation (according to Zillow, but market is currently greater than this)
+ $1,000K rent avoidance (based on local MD to LD seasonal rental rates)
+ $140K tax breaks
------------
+ $1,640K Total Benefits

+ $1,040K net benefit

Now the wildcard is how should I think about how I would have invested if I had rented vs buying. Certainly, my $200K down payment would have tripled over the past 10 years if invested in SP500 - I got $727K from one calculator.

Nice summary/comparison. Looking at the details, one thing I think overlooked is you didn't include in your "investable" funds calc, the principal you paid each month on your mortgage payment. Each month you paid something towards paying down on your debt. If that was included in your SP500 each month, how would that change your $727K from the calculation? Likewise, when you bought you paid something towards "closing costs", that too should be included with the downpayment, right? It is a sunk costs and could have been included in your SP500 initial funding contribution.

Something else that would need to be considered, if you were to sell today you'd take about a 10% haircut on your homes value, reducing your "net benefit" further. By comparison cost to liquidate the SP500 is basically NIL. While you may not be considering sale of your home, it is something that should be considered with comparing to a point in time.

But then you'd have to figure the difference in tax consequences between the two, gain on home vs gain on SP500 (and would some of that have been recognized along the way at a lower tax bracket).

One thing for sure, there is no easy analysis and there probably isn't any one right answer.
 
One nice thing about owning is eventually you do not pay anything more than property taxes and upkeep.
 
Nice summary/comparison. Looking at the details, one thing I think overlooked is you didn't include in your "investable" funds calc, the principal you paid each month on your mortgage payment. Each month you paid something towards paying down on your debt. If that was included in your SP500 each month, how would that change your $727K from the calculation? Likewise, when you bought you paid something towards "closing costs", that too should be included with the downpayment, right? It is a sunk costs and could have been included in your SP500 initial funding contribution.

Something else that would need to be considered, if you were to sell today you'd take about a 10% haircut on your homes value, reducing your "net benefit" further. By comparison cost to liquidate the SP500 is basically NIL. While you may not be considering sale of your home, it is something that should be considered with comparing to a point in time.

But then you'd have to figure the difference in tax consequences between the two, gain on home vs gain on SP500 (and would some of that have been recognized along the way at a lower tax bracket).

On thing for sure, there is no easy analysis and there probably isn't any one right answer.

Thanks for your very thoughtful feedback!

On the first question of including principal redux, this amount was negligible, first because mortgage payments are front-loaded with interest hence minimal principal redux in the early years, and second because I did a refi to take advantage of lower rates, but in the process had to take cash out (bizarrely needed to take a larger loan to get the lower rate).

With respect to closing costs on buying, I included that in the "down payment" figure. Those costs were negligible in the grand scheme of things. And remember, if I was renting, I'd have to put down a hefty security deposit which I'd get back (hopefully) but would not have been available for investment.

With respect to closing costs on selling, that's a fair point - usually the broker's fee (5-6%) is paid by the seller and there are usually some transfer taxes, attorney's fees, etc. I conservatively estimate in 20 years time when we'd probably transition to alternate housing, the home will be worth ~$2M, so those costs could come to ~$120K in future dollars. On the other hand (under current tax code), those selling expenses are deductible in terms of offsetting capital gains, and there is a capital gains exclusion of $500K (for married couple) which you don't get with stocks.

Anyhow, good points/questions. It is indeed a complex analysis. I'm thinking the best way to get a good handle on it would be to run a DCF (discount cash flow) analysis to compare and arrive at a value for the annual cash flows of the rent vs buy scenarios. I'm curious, but I'm not THAT curious!
 
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One nice thing about owning is eventually you do not pay anything more than property taxes and upkeep.

LoL, assuming you don't keep taking cash outta the house piggy bank with refi's. Not a critical comment - I'm a serial cash out refi-er. Done responsibly, it is a source of investment capital.
 
One nice thing about owning is eventually you do not pay anything more than property taxes and upkeep.

And, as has been said before...there are plenty of people that can't save a penny if their life depended on it, but they would never miss a mortgage payment.

Folks on this site are outliers and that probably doesn't apply to most of them. But, for those who can't save owning a home is a forced savings plan that can be cashed in at a later date, maybe to help fund retirement.
 
I have rented for about 7-8 years total in my life. I did not relish the idea that rent went up every year for my accommodations, even as the property was not properly maintained.

I bought my first home and did EVERYTHING wrong: I used the seller's agent, overpaid for the house, over-improved it, etc. That said, despite its costly mistakes, it was an excellent education in house buying which helped me with subsequent house purchases over the decades.

If I was a lifelong tenant, I couldn't afford to live where I do now - period. According to several reputable rental/leasing sites - I would now be paying over $100,000 per year for rent alone - plus utilities, etc. Meanwhile, my home has appreciated to the point where I could never afford another like it ever again. Since it is paid for, my property tax, utilities, maintenance expenses are a mere fraction of that - far less than what a 1-2 bedroom apartment in a nearby crowded complex would cost.

My home offers plenty of personal space, privacy, solitude, tranquility and a peaceful setting in a natural retreat from the increasingly insane and hostile world. That is priceless!

I live surrounded by my personal own wildlife refuge, most of it docile, as the surrounding area is being overdeveloped. This is a live and let live zone and the animals seem to understand that this human is harmless. Most neighbors are a plus and respect boundaries. It helps that the nearest house is 200 yards away.
 
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LoL, assuming you don't keep taking cash outta the house piggy bank with refi's. Not a critical comment - I'm a serial cash out refi-er. Done responsibly, it is a source of investment capital.

Not sure of your situation, but cash out refi’s are usually the most expensive.
 
And, as has been said before...there are plenty of people that can't save a penny if their life depended on it, but they would never miss a mortgage payment.

Folks on this site are outliers and that probably doesn't apply to most of them. But, for those who can't save owning a home is a forced savings plan that can be cashed in at a later date, maybe to help fund retirement.

I concur with this observation. Most arguments for just about anything that start with "well, what if that cash were invested in stocks instead..." ignore this basic principal - that most people (who are not on this forum) do not have the discipline to do that.

The two payments most middle-income walking financial disaster types will prioritize are their car payment (because it's essential in most places that are not NYC/SF) and their mortgage (if they have one). Rent, personal loans, credit cards, medical bills, student loans, they are happy to attempt to evade. Usually the home is the one valuable asset these financial disasters still have at the end of the day.
 
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