$15 to drive into new york city

[MichaelB]

Vote

How does that reduce congestion in NYC?

 

[marko]

So, now I'm wondering: who exactly are we taking off the road?

We have the rich who don't care, taxis and delivery people who don't have a choice, the working folks in the middle who already don't drive because the parking is $200 a day, and the (discount rate) low-income who can't afford a car. No one says "hey let's take a joy ride and go sightseeing down Broadway this afternoon"

After all that, what percentage/demographic do we expect to change their ways? Or is this just really about revenue?

 

[GrayHare]

It removes drivers who will now go around Manhattan while on a trip from/to Long Island.

 

[MichaelB]

So, now I'm wondering: who exactly are we taking off the road?

We have the rich who don't care, taxis and delivery people who don't have a choice, the folks in the middle who already don't drive because the parking is $200 a day, and the (discount rate) low-income who can't afford a car. No one says "hey let's take a joy ride and go sightseeing down Broadway this afternoon"

After all that, what percentage/demographic do we expect to change their ways? Or is this just really about revenue?

Here’s an interesting article on the congestion toll. About 900k vehicles enter the central business district daily, the expectation is a reduction of 17%, which is a meaningful reduction. https://www.scientificamerican.com/...cles enter the,Brooklyn, Queens or New Jersey.

When Mayor Bloomberg was first elected he made it clear he thought only commercial vehicles should enter, no personal vehicles at all.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

Actually, it'll mostly remove people who can take public transportation or not make the trip at all, but had a slight preference for driving in anyway. Behaviorally, those for whom the preference is weakest are the most likely to be "tipped over".

I might not need the $6.30 I'd save by taking the subway over driving (just counting congestion pricing, not parking, gas, etc.), but if it's mostly the same, this might convince me to take the subway.

 

[marko]

Here’s an interesting article on the congestion toll. About 900k vehicles enter the central business district daily, the expectation is a reduction of 17%, which is a meaningful reduction. https://www.scientificamerican.com/...cles enter the,Brooklyn, Queens or New Jersey.

When Mayor Bloomberg was first elected he made it clear he thought only commercial vehicles should enter, no personal vehicles at all.

Good article but it only addresses the "what". Unless I missed it, it doesn't name the "who" is the 17%. At least it'll make traffic easier for those who can afford it.

From Elton John about NYC: "....Subway's no way for a good man to go down.... Rich man can ride...." Mona Lisa's and Madhatters.

 

[braumeister]

Here’s an interesting article on the congestion toll. About 900k vehicles enter the central business district daily, the expectation is a reduction of 17%, which is a meaningful reduction.

Probably wishful thinking. London estimates a 10-11% reduction, but everything I've read says that's too high. It's hard to measure.

 

[ArmchairMillionaire]

I miss the good old days when paying for toll and parking was as simple as reaching into my pocket and dumping in some coins in a meter.

We concur.
We don't own a smart-phone and we are finding ourselves staying away from cities due to the inability to pay for parking without a phone.

 

[dheb]

can governments charge you to use tax payer funded roadways anyway they see fit?

Yes. Have you not heard of tolls?

 

[meleana]

I’m not from New York City, but I am a New Yorker and my husband grew up in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Now retired and living in New Hampshire for the past 4 years we have no intention of ever going back to New York - the city or elsewhere- again.

 

[Koolau]

How does that reduce congestion in NYC?

The question was how do you restrict gummint - not congestion. No one goes into NYC expecting it NOT to be congested.

 

[jollystomper]

One the untended consequences that may happen is that other parts of Manhattan (as well are parts of Brooklyn and Queens that are close subway rides to Manhattan) will now be absorbing the traffic that doe snot want to pay the congestion toll. A lot of folks who work south of 60th street might just now drive to those other locations to park, then take the subway in.

You may reduce the congestion in the toll area, but are those other close in areas ready to absorb additional traffic? I am not sure, as those places tend to be somewhat crowded already.

 

[Gumby]

This is why we have trains. So you can park way out in the suburbs and take the train in.

 

[Koolau]

I think NYC is a bargain at $15/day. Honolulu wanted to reduce traffic and therefore built an elevated rail system. So far, it's cost almost $10,000 for every man woman and child on the Island. It doesn't even go into the city until phase II (whenever that might happen.) It dumps folks off where they have to continue on a bus. Ridership is up to (wait for it) a bit over 3000 per day. I don't know what that comes out to per ride (I've heard estimates of a "cost" of $72/ride.) Of course, that doesn't retire the debt - just pays for what we call maintenance (in Honolulu, that means "fix it when it breaks") and electricity, personnel, etc.

So, realistically, we should probably look at NYC as the bargain of the two. YMMV

 

[jollystomper]

This is why we have trains. So you can park way out in the suburbs and take the train in.

The problem is, there is already very little parking available in those close in areas. They are not suburbs, they are crowded cities unto themselves.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

One the untended consequences that may happen is that other parts of Manhattan (as well are parts of Brooklyn and Queens that are close subway rides to Manhattan) will now be absorbing the traffic that doe snot want to pay the congestion toll. A lot of folks who work south of 60th street might just now drive to those other locations to park, then take the subway in.

You may reduce the congestion in the toll area, but are those other close in areas ready to absorb additional traffic? I am not sure, as those places tend to be somewhat crowded already.

If those people you are thinking of would be parking in the inner suburbs or just outside midtown (where parking is WAAAAAY more than $15, probably per hour even), they must be driving from somewhere further out, so they would still be making most of the same drive as before, just ending it earlier to take public transit. That's not more traffic in the outer areas, just maybe more parking (which is still $$). And as Gumby said, that's the point of public transit.

 

[Gumby]

I never drove at all when I worked in midtown Manhattan. I just walked the three blocks from my house here in Connecticut to the Metro-North station, took the train in to Grand Central and then walked from there to my office every day.

 

[jollystomper]

Points to ponder:

There really are no such thing as "inner suburbs" in Brooklyn and Queens . As I said, these places are part of NYC and are large cities to themselves. See this NYC density map: https://www.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=80f9b95a4ce0491091f1477710f6a91d#!

- One might assume that drivers are taking the same route in to park. Not necessarily, as there are definitely "concentration points" for close in access to Manhattan via the subway (view a NYC subway map for details).

- In places where there is already little parking, it will be more traffic. Harder to find parking means that cars will be on the street longer trying to find a space. More cars fighting over the same space = cars longer in the street = more traffic. It is actually a queuing theory exercise - increase the number of items arriving in the queue with the same service time (parking spaces) = longer queues.

The Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn is a prime example, I am more than a little familiar with it . Easy access via subway to Wall Street, but a very dense area where you need luck to find a parking space.

I understand the reason for congestion pricing, I am not arguing that. I am simply saying that, with these types of things, there are always unintended consequences that are either ignored or not thought about. It is more likely that the result will see an expansion of the congestion pricing area. But if I knew that for sure, I'd own my own little island, living off the proceeds of my predictions.

 

[braumeister]

I understand the reason for congestion pricing, I am not arguing that. I am simply saying that, with these types of things, there are always unintended consequences that are either ignored or not thought about. It is more likely that the result will see an expansion of the congestion pricing area.

I absolutely agree. Just like London's expansion of its congestion zone. It has been expanded at least once, if not twice (not sure), and there is always talk of another expansion.

I was born and raised in Brooklyn, and I have to say that I've hardly ever seen any need to drive to anything in Manhattan. The subway system always met my needs, and I seriously doubt that I would ever have benefited from driving simply due to the extra time needed to find a parking space.

 

[Aerides]

How does anyone park in Manhattan now anyway? Those who go in by car daily are not low/middle income workers, it's completely impractical even without a fee.

 

[scrabbler1]

Back in my working days, on the few occasions I went into Manhattan (from LI) on a weekend I usually took the LIRR, as I had a monthly ticket so the only extra cost was the subway, if I ended up not near Penn Station. But if I were coming home in the evening , especially late at night, I would drive in because the wait time at Penn Station for an LIRR train could be an hour. The traffic returning home at that hour was light. Parking in Manhattan, even on a Sunday, was often difficult. Weekend traffic in Manhattan was not terrible, especially in the downtown area because all the weekday-only businesses were closed.

As a compromise, I sometimes drove into Queens, around Forest Hills, where there was good subway service (E/F Queens Blvd. line). I would avoid the wait time at Penn and have a fairly short drive from where I live. Parking in Forest Hills was sometimes difficult, and I had to often park pretty far from the station on 71st Ave.

With the added charge for driving into Manhattan, even on a weekend (where it is lower than weekdays), I'm not sure I drive in. The Queens-subway option looks a lot better. But I suppose the parking in Forest Hills will become even worse.

 

[MarieIG]

I absolutely agree. Just like London's expansion of its congestion zone. It has been expanded at least once, if not twice (not sure), and there is always talk of another expansion.

I was born and raised in Brooklyn, and I have to say that I've hardly ever seen any need to drive to anything in Manhattan. The subway system always met my needs, and I seriously doubt that I would ever have benefited from driving simply due to the extra time needed to find a parking space.

When the weather was bad, I used to go into my target location via Brooklyn, i.e. change trains (LIRR) at Jamaica, Atlantic Terminal, 2 train to Chambers St. It shortened my walk. Some days, there was a morning trip to Borough Hall and an afternoon to Chambers St. which was quick trip. I really loathed driving into Brooklyn as well as Manhattan.

Queens (for me) could be a bit of an issue. It was great taking the train in, but you could loose an hour if you were returning off peak, and the office did not like us to "waste billable time." It was similar with the Bronx (which involved LIRR and subway), and thinking about trips into and/or out of Staten Island in rush hour left me with PTSD.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

I grew up in Queens, lived there until I was 23, and I could count on one hand the times I drove or someone else drove me into Manhattan. It was just too much of a PITA.

 

[TheWizard]

We concur.
We don't own a smart-phone and we are finding ourselves staying away from cities due to the inability to pay for parking without a phone.

Wow.
So you're saying that reasonably intelligent people exist who don't actually have smartphones?
So how do you get into a major league ballpark or other big event venue nowadays?

 

[GenXguy]

Wow.
So you're saying that reasonably intelligent people exist who don't actually have smartphones?
So how do you get into a major league ballpark or other big event venue nowadays?

I've read that over 90% of Americans surveyed have smartphones, so there are still quite a few that don't. Someone else just recently started a thread about transferring pictures from a flip phone.