haha
Give me a museum and I'll fill it. (Picasso) Give me a forum ...
This thread has nothing to do with Fuego's topic, other than his topic put me to thinking about this.
A bit over a year ago I posted a thread about some young friends of mine that were thinking of quitting their jobs, he to start what seemed to me to be a poorly defined software venture, and she to investigate do-gooder and green careers.
People here gave me helpful suggestions about how I might approach the topic with them, but in the end I decided that there is always a lot that I don't know, and maybe this is their destiny or karma or the first steps to getting rich. So I said nothing. It has since turned out medium badly, they lost their coop apartment, she hasn't been able to find adequate employment that meets her psychic needs and his venture survives but struggles along. But we are still friends, and neither of them feels uneasy around me so I think for me I made the right decision.
I have made similar decisions in my family. I had an alcoholic brother 11 years younger than I who died last fall from alcohol related illnesses. I always treated him well and made the assumption that he had to see what a crappy life he was setting up, so what could I do? I never mentioned his drinking to him, other than refusing to get in his car when he was drunk. I didn't even try to get the keys away from him, once he had refused a request. Good way to get hurt, IMO. My other brother sometimes collided violently with him over drinking, and a few times literally went to the mat physically. I felt that that course was fruitless and risky, and drunk brother never changed anything anyway. However, when he died he made fighting brother his beneficiary, so on some level he must have felt that fruitless though they were, his attempts at influence signified love.
Similar but less dramatic problems in sister's life. She is sober, but she is wrecking her marriage and her relationship with her male children. DH has recently moved out and no way will he move back. Years ago she talked to me about getting divorced. I felt that her husband was a real salt of the earth, and a guy that I am very proud to know, so I told her this. I also felt that if she walked on him it would be the last opportunity she had to snag a standup guy, but I did not express this. I have never gone back to this topic in over 10 years, and neither has she. She continues to make really odd decisions, sometimes justified by "that's just the way I feel", as if thought had nothing to do with anything and only feelings counted. She volunteers this justification, so on some level I think she is aware of how odd some of her decisions might look from the outside
A woman friend of mine confided that she has stopped having sex with her husband, and having gotten out of the habit and doesn't want to attempt to resume. I know her husband, IMO he is light years ahead of her next best solution. Yet she expects this fairly young guy to support her (she is retired), take her out to dinner, go to parties with her, etc., with no intimacy in the deal. I told her that there likely were ways to get back into the groove, and that this status quo typically is not one that appeals to husbands. (Not likely that there is a female over age 16 that doesn't understand this) She ignored the issue and never mentioned it again. I did not want her to see me as a possible replacement, which I totally am not. Her DH has finally moved out too.
One's siblings are a special category, as in my case at least I am the older brother and I can see odd types of thinking and recognize that I first saw it when they were 13 or whenever, so I know it is patterned rather than responsive to the situation. I am sure they see similar gaps in my awareness, but only once do I recall have any of them say, "Ha, do you really know what you’re doing?" And although I remember that comment very well, I went ahead with my plans and in fact I hadn’t really known what I was doing.
One's adult children are even more challenging, because here you really care and very much want to spare them pain that you suspect is coming down the pike. However I cannot remember having any doubt that I raised have any effect. But it does stress the relationship, at least temporarily, so I quit speaking out. I have made plenty of questionable decisions myself, and continue to do so, so perhaps when I move out from my glass house I will feel bolder.
I did try to influence my former wife, as I felt that I had a direct stake in outcomes. I would say that these attempts were not utter failures, but I would be hard put to describe them as successes. And of course she is my former wife.
My helping is pretty well limited to taking food, lending an ear, running an errand. Strictly Indian, not Chief. The goal is relationship maintenance, not change.
I guess for me I have arrived at tend your own garden, if you have surplus share it. But I try to never go beyond an easily defensible perimeter and try to stay serene. ( A real stretch for me).
I guess I have no question, but I would be interested if anyone wishes to share interventionist successes, so I could at least imagine that outcome.
Ha
A bit over a year ago I posted a thread about some young friends of mine that were thinking of quitting their jobs, he to start what seemed to me to be a poorly defined software venture, and she to investigate do-gooder and green careers.
People here gave me helpful suggestions about how I might approach the topic with them, but in the end I decided that there is always a lot that I don't know, and maybe this is their destiny or karma or the first steps to getting rich. So I said nothing. It has since turned out medium badly, they lost their coop apartment, she hasn't been able to find adequate employment that meets her psychic needs and his venture survives but struggles along. But we are still friends, and neither of them feels uneasy around me so I think for me I made the right decision.
I have made similar decisions in my family. I had an alcoholic brother 11 years younger than I who died last fall from alcohol related illnesses. I always treated him well and made the assumption that he had to see what a crappy life he was setting up, so what could I do? I never mentioned his drinking to him, other than refusing to get in his car when he was drunk. I didn't even try to get the keys away from him, once he had refused a request. Good way to get hurt, IMO. My other brother sometimes collided violently with him over drinking, and a few times literally went to the mat physically. I felt that that course was fruitless and risky, and drunk brother never changed anything anyway. However, when he died he made fighting brother his beneficiary, so on some level he must have felt that fruitless though they were, his attempts at influence signified love.
Similar but less dramatic problems in sister's life. She is sober, but she is wrecking her marriage and her relationship with her male children. DH has recently moved out and no way will he move back. Years ago she talked to me about getting divorced. I felt that her husband was a real salt of the earth, and a guy that I am very proud to know, so I told her this. I also felt that if she walked on him it would be the last opportunity she had to snag a standup guy, but I did not express this. I have never gone back to this topic in over 10 years, and neither has she. She continues to make really odd decisions, sometimes justified by "that's just the way I feel", as if thought had nothing to do with anything and only feelings counted. She volunteers this justification, so on some level I think she is aware of how odd some of her decisions might look from the outside
A woman friend of mine confided that she has stopped having sex with her husband, and having gotten out of the habit and doesn't want to attempt to resume. I know her husband, IMO he is light years ahead of her next best solution. Yet she expects this fairly young guy to support her (she is retired), take her out to dinner, go to parties with her, etc., with no intimacy in the deal. I told her that there likely were ways to get back into the groove, and that this status quo typically is not one that appeals to husbands. (Not likely that there is a female over age 16 that doesn't understand this) She ignored the issue and never mentioned it again. I did not want her to see me as a possible replacement, which I totally am not. Her DH has finally moved out too.
One's siblings are a special category, as in my case at least I am the older brother and I can see odd types of thinking and recognize that I first saw it when they were 13 or whenever, so I know it is patterned rather than responsive to the situation. I am sure they see similar gaps in my awareness, but only once do I recall have any of them say, "Ha, do you really know what you’re doing?" And although I remember that comment very well, I went ahead with my plans and in fact I hadn’t really known what I was doing.
One's adult children are even more challenging, because here you really care and very much want to spare them pain that you suspect is coming down the pike. However I cannot remember having any doubt that I raised have any effect. But it does stress the relationship, at least temporarily, so I quit speaking out. I have made plenty of questionable decisions myself, and continue to do so, so perhaps when I move out from my glass house I will feel bolder.
I did try to influence my former wife, as I felt that I had a direct stake in outcomes. I would say that these attempts were not utter failures, but I would be hard put to describe them as successes. And of course she is my former wife.
My helping is pretty well limited to taking food, lending an ear, running an errand. Strictly Indian, not Chief. The goal is relationship maintenance, not change.
I guess for me I have arrived at tend your own garden, if you have surplus share it. But I try to never go beyond an easily defensible perimeter and try to stay serene. ( A real stretch for me).
I guess I have no question, but I would be interested if anyone wishes to share interventionist successes, so I could at least imagine that outcome.
Ha
