The "Dark Side" Of ER

[Nords]

So funny. It's the absolute opposite of the Greek philosophers who strongly believed that work (for hire) corrupts achievement, and that it's only through activities done in leisure time that one can reach their full potential.

Or Ben Franklin, whose "putzing" during 40+ years of ER easily outstripped anything he achieved as a printer...

 

[audreyh1]

Or Ben Franklin, whose "putzing" during 40+ years of ER easily outstripped anything he achieved as a printer...

There are many historical figures in this category. Darwin is another.

Pre 1900, a great deal of the scientific discovery and advances were made by people who had the means to pursue their own interests and didn't need to earn a living. In fact, there wasn't really such a thing as a "professional scientist" until fairly late in the 1800s or thereabouts.

Audrey

 

[Khan]

But you did make the coffee before calling, yes? [ducking]

Actually I did make coffee as I was usually the first person in the office. I did not serve it.

 

[IndependentlyPoor]

As mentioned by a few previous posters, we all need a certain amount of purpose and a sense of accomplishment to feel good about ourselves.

Didn't Freud say "to love, to work, and to play"?

 

[Milton]

The beauty of financial independence is that you no longer are beholden to someone else's direction because you no longer need to earn your living. At this point you can pick and choose assignments and clients if you run your own business. If you are still an employee you may have a little more flexibility, but you would probably have to change careers if you wanted a lot more autonomy over your work life. There is still the high degree of "hassle factor" associated with most careers.

Most people don't work because they love it. Most people work because they have to. For most people, work is mostly about earning a living until they don't have to any more.

I get the feeling a lot of folks are uncomfortable about the idea of having a self-directed life (beyond choosing the career or job). I suppose that this is understandable considering that we are trained from birth to do someone else's bidding.

But one thing I really don't understand is how anyone can feel there is something morally wrong with "doing your own thing" rather than doing what you are assigned by someone else. That's the struggle the author of this article really seems to have. Well, it's basically just a twist on the old protestant work ethic.

Ultimately, he is saying that you can only "reach your full potential" if your activities are directed by someone else. And there are no requirements for how "evolved" or "superior" the boss or hiring organization need to be in order to create the environment that lets you achieve this ultimate fulfillment.

So funny. It's the absolute opposite of the Greek philosophers who strongly believed that work (for hire) corrupts achievement, and that it's only through activities done in leisure time that one can reach their full potential.

Great post, Audrey!

 

[kumquat]

Most people don't work because they love it. Most people work because they have to. For most people, work is mostly about earning a living until they don't have to any more.

Audrey

While everything you say is true, there are those who actually like what they do. I can think of a few examples in my family:

• GGF was a farmer. I was born on his 100'th birthday. DF went to wish him happy birthday and tell him about me. Found him shovelling sh*t out of the barn.
• GF was a farmer. Sold the farm and retired at 79. Got bored and took my ner-do-well cousin farming (on a farm he owned but rented) at 81. Fininshed harvest at 86, packed GM in the car and headed for SoCal to spend the winter. Didn't make it.
• GF's brother was a lawyer, retired at 96 or 97. Died shortly thereafter.

None of these people needed employment income. They had some reason to work and it wasn't money. I can only assume it was because they were doing what they wanted to do.

Most people don't work because they love it.

I'm pretty sure some do.

 

[audreyh1]

This is likely true. However, there is a reason that Germany is bailing out Greece, and not the other way around.

Also, the US as it was in the past is a stunning achievment of people with the Protestant work ethic.

Ha

Yes - I grant you that a lot of the history of success of the US as a nation was due to the Protestant work ethic.

But I think that the last 60 years were driven not by the protestant work ethic directly, but by rather by "The American Dream" which is a consumerist philosophy, not a religious one. That still generated a lot of productivity.

Audrey

 

[audreyh1]

I'm pretty sure some do.

Kumquat - I hope you noticed that I specifically said "most people" - not "all people". That leaves plenty of room for your "some people" - which I also know exist.

Audrey

 

[Milton]

Not to take the conversation in a new direction, but the basic fact is that 80% of Greeks don't pay their taxes.

The protestant work ethic has achieved more...but IMHO not what made the US great. "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" doesn't mean a 40+ hr work week to everyone.

Unfortunately, the basic fact is that the vast majority of Americans - perfectly legally - don't pay as high taxes as government spending actually requires. They also don't save much money and can't afford to buy a significant quantity of government debt. So as this article points out, both countries are overly dependent upon borrowing from foreign investors.

The citizens of aging rich countries with low savings rates, including the U.S., have a choice. They can go along with higher taxes, spending cuts, reduced pensions and the like, to put government finances on solid ground. Or they can cut their own spending and save more - quite a bit more - themselves. What they can't do is expect foreigners to pay for them to live beyond their means forever. That is the clear lesson of Greece.

 

[kcowan]

There is probably several bell curves in retirement. Some are really good at it, and some aren't. The good thing is that nobody gets to define the bell curve for us. Just like I admit to being a below average napper, some are proud to excel at it! Not that there is anything wrong with that!

The focus should be on FI and not RE. Everyone should be aiming for FI (right?). Once they achieve it, working for da man become an optional activity which they may or may not continue to pursue. It is about having options.

Choosing what to do every day is tremendously liberating. What I choose to do will be different than you and nobody will be trying to say which one is "correct". (Except maybe some hack writers.)

 

[HFWR]

I have managed to enjoy life, most of the time, with the help of self-medication...

But for the past 50 years, starting with elementary school, I've been getting up when someone says to, sitting where I'm told to sit, eating lunch at the assigned time, going home when told, and going to bed because someone was telling me I had to do it all over again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

Am I supposed to miss this?

 

[brewer12345]

I have managed to enjoy life, most of the time, with the help of self-medication...

But for the past 50 years, starting with elementary school, I've been getting up when someone says to, sitting where I'm told to sit, eating lunch at the assigned time, going home when told, and going to bed because someone was telling me I had to do it all over again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

Am I supposed to miss this?

Wouldn't you miss the dignity of work?

 

[rescueme]

Wouldn't you miss the dignity of work?

...

I guess by my answer that you understand I wor*ed because I had to. No other reason...

 

[HFWR]

Wouldn't you miss the dignity of work?

Here's your answer...

 

[jacob]

I think the OP's link presented ER from the perspective of careerism.

[Just to make it clear, the quotes are NOT from Fisker's Extreme ER blog".]

Since ER is a rejection of the values of careerism, careerism would cast ER in an obvious dark light. There are probably more people pursuing careerism, maybe thanks to the "love your work/find your work passion" meme than there are pursuing ER. I wonder whether this "find work you're passionate about" is a Gen Y thing?! did boomers have the same lofty goals?

 

[audreyh1]

ISince ER is a rejection of the values of careerism, careerism would cast ER in an obvious dark light. There are probably more people pursuing careerism, maybe thanks to the "love your work/find your work passion" meme than there are pursuing ER. I wonder whether this "find work you're passionate about" is a Gen Y thing?! did boomers have the same lofty goals?

Yes - especially for women. Our generation went through a period of rejection of "traditional" roles for women in favor of roles that allowed for financial independence from spouse or parents. So this pretty much meant career/work. And unfortunately tended to devalue the non-money-earning aspects of a woman's life. Just a pendulum swinging the other way, really.

I think of myself growing up, and how important it was for me to "earn my own money" and not seek financial support through marriage. To me growing up, financial independence meant being independent of spouse or parents for financial support. It wasn't until much later that I realized "financial independence" might mean independence from employment too! But of course until you achieve full FI, those distinctions matter little.

Audrey

 

[Khan]

I have managed to enjoy life, most of the time, with the help of self-medication...

But for the past 50 years, starting with elementary school, I've been getting up when someone says to, sitting where I'm told to sit, eating lunch at the assigned time, going home when told, and going to bed because someone was telling me I had to do it all over again tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

Am I supposed to miss this?

Trust me: you won't.

 

[audreyh1]

Wouldn't you miss the dignity of work?

Yeah, we all know how dignified Brewer's work made him feel until recently!

Audrey

 

[brewer12345]

Yeah, we all know how dignified Brewer's work made him feel until recently!

Audrey

Fortunately things are far better for me now, but its still work and therefore it means I have little control over my life, just like HFWR. I frigging hate having to get up at 5:20 AM because it is the only time I can squeeze time at the gym, for example.

 

[bbbamI]

I frigging hate having to get up at 5:20 AM

What is this 5:20 AM you speak of?

 

[brewer12345]

What is this 5:20 AM you speak of?

Hey, its an improvement over my last job. I used to get up at 4:45 AM, drive 70 miles, hit the gym, and then go to work for 10+ hours. At least I keep telling myself that it is an improvement.

Can you see why I am willing to do ESR instead of full ER?

Its because I can't stand the idea of fully giving up on the dignity of work...

 

[antmary]

During certain kinds of activity - such as art, gardening, etc. I have found myself reaching what I would call a sort of "Zen" consciousness. Things seem to flow, and I feel like I am exactly where I need to be. Throughout my working life I gradually built on my education, and now, at 64 am able to make money doing what I love. My work is in a helping field related to art; I planned it that way and my life is truly rich. I plan to stay engaged in life.

I don't "have" to work, but one of the things I enjoy is to earn extra money and invest it for future generations. I am also working on a book.

I know people who spent years in jobs they hated - myself included; the only motive was money. One can certainly smell the roses without being part of the stress and extravagant spending cycle. The freedom offered by living below my means is priceless.

For the young, I would say remember the magic of compounding interest. Invest each month. You can have a meaningful work - yet attain a comfortable retirement.

 

[brewer12345]

For the young, I would say remember the magic of compounding interest. Invest each month. You can have a meaningful work - yet attain a comfortable retirement.

AKA lean back, relax, and think of England.

 

[Nords]

I think the OP's link presented ER from the perspective of careerism.
[Just to make it clear, the quotes are NOT from Fisker's Extreme ER blog".]
I wonder whether this "find work you're passionate about" is a Gen Y thing?! did boomers have the same lofty goals?

Welcome to the board, Jacob!

I think the vast majority of the readers, especially those who've been following your blog, understand the link wasn't from ERE. I decided let it slide.

Once upon a time I was passionate about my career (I'm a Boomer). Then I hit a point where family became largely incompatible with career, and that was the end of the good passion...

 

[Khan]

Fortunately things are far better for me now, but its still work and therefore it means I have little control over my life, just like HFWR. I frigging hate having to get up at 5:20 AM because it is the only time I can squeeze time at the gym, for example.

I spent ~20 years responding to the alarm at 5AM. Don't miss it a bit.