Article on NY audits of Florida tax refugees

[pb4uski]

Relevant article... specifically NY to FL but the principles are universal.

https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow...can-be-taxed-as-a-florida-resident/index.html

 

[Teacher Terry]

LCOL states like Alabama may be cheaper but usually you are sacrificing something like weather, bugs, things to do,etc.

 

[The Cosmic Avenger]

LCOL states like Alabama may be cheaper but usually you are sacrificing something like weather, bugs, things to do,etc.

Also roads and other infrastructure; police, fire, and EMS; agencies like animal control, consumer protection, aging, and others. (Some of these are on the county rather than state level, but the counties usually follow the state's lead.) Also, even if you don't use public schools or universities, there are many ways that good school systems can improve the quality of life for residents who are not students or parents of students.

(EDIT: I'm not saying everyone, or even anyone, needs to or even should value these things. They're just the trade-offs for lower taxes that often are forgotten in day-to-day living. As I've mentioned before, I have friends who retired from Maryland to Florida who occasionally complain about road maintenance or zoning issues or something similar, and I remind them that's the trade-off they make for lower taxes. Also, they rub their winter weather in my face, and I rub their summer weather in theirs! )

 

[gerntz]

LCOL states like Alabama may be cheaper but usually you are sacrificing something like weather, bugs, things to do,etc.

I'm pretty sure LCOL states are beyond may be cheaper. In fact, they definitely are cheaper. And my guess is that's a big deal for those moving there over perceived things to do by others that don't move.

 

[truenorth418]

Decade is a long time:



"West Virginia is down 11,216 residents from July 1, 2017, to July 1, 2018.



The other states that lost population over that period included New York (down 48,510), Illinois (45,116), Louisiana (10,840), Hawaii (3,712), Mississippi (3,133), Alaska (2,348), Connecticut (1,215) and Wyoming (1,197)."



Net, WV is a distant 3rd in more recent population loss.

Interesting. I couldn’t access MichaelB’s link but I wouldn’t be surprised if NY state and CA populations are increasing overall. But how much of the increases in those states are due to immigration from other countries vs from other states? Both are popular entry points for newly arrived immigrants.

Also, how are population growth rates relative to other states? NY once the most populated state in the US is now 4th. FL is 3rd with a much higher growth rate.

This trend has many negative implications such as the apportionment of US Congressional representatives and federal transfer payments, to the detriment of those who decide to stay - or have no practical choice due to family or job considerations.

A more favorable tax environment might help stem the decline in NY state’s population growth relative to the others, but for whatever reason the state government there does not seem interested in that.

 

[truenorth418]

I believe that TrueNorth, whom you quoted is from NY.)

I’m not “from” NY, but I did reside in NYC for many years. Now I’m a resident of FL.

I enjoyed my time in NYC, no question about it, especially in the early days, and NYC provided me with a lot of lifestyle features that are tough to find elsewhere in the US. And I paid a lot of money in taxes while I was there, and I accepted that. But the quality of life was declining rapidly during my last few years, and I was glad to leave, and I have no regrets.

NYC has one of the highest tax burdens of any municipality in the country. Does it have the cleanest streets? The best public schools? Is the quality of public transportation getting better or worse? How does NYC’s public transport compare with other cities’? Is the city government tackling the growing homelessness problem or is it getting worse?

If I thought the local and state governments were providing genuine value for the money they take from people then maybe I would have stayed. It’s a personal decision and fortunately for me there were other options. Go where you’re treated best.

 

[X501]

Relevant article... specifically NY to FL but the principles are universal.

https://www.kiplinger.com/slideshow...can-be-taxed-as-a-florida-resident/index.html

great link, just what I was looking for

 

[Dtail]

We moved from a HCOL state to Florida, which in my area I would classify as a MCOL.
There are tradeoffs, but some of the negative aspects of FLA such as a scarcity of higher paying jobs, bad rush hour traffic, etc don't affect us as retirees.
Overall, we love living here and would never think about moving back north.

 

[wrigley]

I have lived in Florida (both in Central and Northeast) since 1962 and I have yet found any place where the food is like NY or NJ for that matter.



I would love to have a good bagel, sub, or pizza. Restaurants (?) like Dominoes, Subway and Bagels-R-Us are the norm here.


Please tell me the town and restaurants where you are finding these. Thank you.


Cheers!

There's a GIORDANO'S in Orlando!

Mike

 

[JoeWras]

I have lived in Florida (both in Central and Northeast) since 1962 and I have yet found any place where the food is like NY or NJ for that matter.

I would love to have a good bagel, sub, or pizza. Restaurants (?) like Dominoes, Subway and Bagels-R-Us are the norm here.

Please tell me the town and restaurants where you are finding these. Thank you.

Cheers!

Boca Raton, Delray Beach, Deerfield Beach.

You lived in central and NE FL? Fuggetabout it. That's not little NY. You gotta go a lot farther South, and keep it on the East. It wasn't a mistake that the parents on Seinfeld moved to "Del Boca Vista"

PS. One caveat: I haven't lived there for 30 years, so things may have changed. Back then, there were plenty of real NY bagel and pizza shops out of the way that were not chains. You had to go to the small, gritty strip malls to find them.

 

[Badger]

There's a GIORDANO'S in Orlando!

Mike

Thank you Mike but I think I'll pass. It might be a decent pizza but this isn't a NY pizza. That restaurant is even advertised as a deep dish Chicago style pizza.



Cheers!

 

[Badger]

Boca Raton, Delray Beach, Deerfield Beach.

You lived in central and NE FL? Fuggetabout it. That's not little NY. You gotta go a lot farther South, and keep it on the East. It wasn't a mistake that the parents on Seinfeld moved to "Del Boca Vista"

PS. One caveat: I haven't lived there for 30 years, so things may have changed. Back then, there were plenty of real NY bagel and pizza shops out of the way that were not chains. You had to go to the small, gritty strip malls to find them.

You may be right. I have only been to south Florida (West Palm Beach and points south) about 6 times and learned early on it was not like the rest of the state. A very large percentage of the population is from the north east of the country if not from the "islands". That would account for the small "Mom and Pop" shops that brought their recipes from NY and NJ of which you speak. Unfortunately I will never know. South Florida is not a place where I am comfortable to travel. I hope they are still in business. I like to support these types of places but so many have closed in the past 30 years due to the influx of so many chain restaurants on almost every street corner like Dominoes, Little Caesers, Papa Johns, CiCis, Pizza Hut, etc.



Cheers!

 

[MichaelB]

I believe that TrueNorth, whom you quoted is from NY. A lot of us New Yorkers recall our governor lamenting quite publicly about the "rich" leaving New York - not the population in general decreasing. (I could not access the census link, but I spend a lot of time in NYC and have no problem believing that the overall population has increased.)

I’m not “from” NY, but I did reside in NYC for many years. Now I’m a resident of FL.

I enjoyed my time in NYC, no question about it, especially in the early days, and NYC provided me with a lot of lifestyle features that are tough to find elsewhere in the US. And I paid a lot of money in taxes while I was there, and I accepted that. But the quality of life was declining rapidly during my last few years, and I was glad to leave, and I have no regrets.

NYC has one of the highest tax burdens of any municipality in the country. Does it have the cleanest streets? The best public schools? Is the quality of public transportation getting better or worse? How does NYC’s public transport compare with other cities’? Is the city government tackling the growing homelessness problem or is it getting worse?

If I thought the local and state governments were providing genuine value for the money they take from people then maybe I would have stayed. It’s a personal decision and fortunately for me there were other options. Go where you’re treated best.

I too am a Fl resident, prior to that a NY resident, while there (in NY) a high earner, and understand the tax burden well.

The choice to move to and away from a state is complex, I just object to the oversimplification that tax is the driver. In fact, many factors apply. Job, family and friends are much more important, as are retirement goals and plans. Cost of living also matters, and tax is part of that.

The link in my earlier post was to census data that showed a decade of population change by state. The only state with meaningful population decline was West Virginia. My guess would be that decline is job related.

When it come to choosing a place to live in the 25-50 age bracket, I think employment is more far important than tax rates, and it certainly helps understand why people move to high tax states. People with few or no roots will consider leaving when the job ends, as many of us have. People with roots face more difficult choices.

 

[gerntz]

Interesting. I couldn’t access MichaelB’s link but I wouldn’t be surprised if NY state and CA populations are increasing overall.

According to the below, NY will lose two house seats in 2020 Census results & CA may lose one. Doesn't say pops are dropping but clearly growth is below USA average. Losing 2 House seats is a strong indicator of absolute pop drop I'll hazard.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...e-congressional-seats-in-2020-reapportionment

 

[Amethyst]

Once we retired, the only thing keeping us in MD was attachment to the home and beautiful yard we'd created over the years. It was terribly hard to leave that yard, knowing we'd never have anything to match it. But there was also no good reason to keep on paying nearly 9% of our income for state and local taxes. And if there isn't much of a yard where we live now, there is a beach not far away.

The choice to move to and away from a state is complex...

When it come to choosing a place to live in the 25-50 age bracket, I think employment is more far important than tax rates, and it certainly helps understand why people move to high tax states. People with few or no roots will consider leaving when the job ends, as many of us have. People with roots face more difficult choices.

 

[pb4uski]

....I just object to the oversimplification that tax is the driver. ....

+1 We were not actively looking to change to a no tax state.... it just happened that we ended up snowbirding in Florida and bought a condo and enjoyed it and the community/area that we winter at.

In our case, the savings are not hugely compelling... homesteading property tax benefits are a wash so the real benefit is income tax savings offset by higher auto insurance costs.... net benefit is only about 2.5% of our annual spending but every little bit helps... enough to make it worthwhile since we would be coming down here anyway and funds 2-3 nice dinners a month.

One additional benefit is that we may do more Roth conversions once our conversions are not subject to state income tax.

 

[jim584672]

I don't see any evidence of an exodus (I'm in NY). Real estate around me has been going up like crazy in the last year.

 

[jollystomper]

When it come to choosing a place to live in the 25-50 age bracket, I think employment is more far important than tax rates, and it certainly helps understand why people move to high tax states. People with few or no roots will consider leaving when the job ends, as many of us have. People with roots face more difficult choices.

In my college graduating class, a lot of my classmates who ended up as high earners in banking/finance/law started out living and working in New York City, or going to a graduate school and then going to New York City. Then after they got married and started having children, they slowly migrated to the NYC suburbs, including Connecticut. Now, as there children are moving out of the house, many are moving back to low tax places - in some cases, it is at or near where they grew up.

A state with high taxes but lots of high paying job opportunities will always have a good influx from younger people. Then, as they age and depending on what type of lifestyles and connections they value, some then consider moving to a less expensive place in their 50s and 60s.

 

[kgtest]

When I left MN, MN was threatening to tax 401K/IRA withdrawals regardless of what state you lived in later. If you earned the $ in MN when you deferred the income, MN was going to tax it when you withdrew it.

You don't say. Is that even legal?

 

[NYEXPAT]

Thank you Mike but I think I'll pass. It might be a decent pizza but this isn't a NY pizza. That restaurant is even advertised as a deep dish Chicago style pizza.



Cheers!

If you want NY style pizza in Orlando, you have to try Pizza Ponte in Disney springs. Not only does it taste like NYC Pizza, at $7.00/ slice it feels like you are in NYC as well!

 

[LimaPop]

Maryland is getting vicious toward the high-income residents fleeing to Florida and North Carolina. MD is now withholding 7.5% of the proceeds of a house sale when you move out of state. This is supposed to ensure people pay any capital gains tax owed on the house, but it is charged to everyone, even if you had to sell at a loss.

Next year when you file your taxes with MD as a part-year resident, hoping to be refunded for the tax on the capital gains you did not receive, MD Comptroller's office may audit your return. They certainly are in no hurry to refund your money. And 7.5% of the purchase price is probably a lot more than most people would ever owe in CG tax. Think of it - 7.5% of a $500,000 sale is $37,500!

Maryland did that to me, I had to file to get a "rebate" of my money. I've never lived there but my parents had a vacation home in OC.

 

[pb4uski]

When I left MN, MN was threatening to tax 401K/IRA withdrawals regardless of what state you lived in later. If you earned the $ in MN when you deferred the income, MN was going to tax it when you withdrew it.

You don't say. Is that even legal?

No, it is illegal.... see post #45 of this thread.

 

[pb4uski]

Maryland did that to me, I had to file to get a "rebate" of my money. I've never lived there but my parents had a vacation home in OC.

I agree that 7.5% of the contract price is outrageous especially given that their top tax rate is less than 6%... but I have no issue with a state wanting to withhold taxes on a sale by a non-resident to make sure that the state does ultimately get paid... if the non-resident fails to file a return to pay the taxes legitimately due then the state has to chase them for it... this way the taxpayer has to chase a refund for any excess withheld.

For example, if LimaPop just ignored filing then Maryland wuld have to chase him... the withholding reverses the roles and I'm fine with that. They shouldn't need to do it but you can blame the multitude of non-residents that thwart the system by failing file.

 

[copyright1997reloaded]

LCOL states like Alabama may be cheaper but usually you are sacrificing something like weather, bugs, things to do,etc.

Also roads and other infrastructure; police, fire, and EMS; agencies like animal control, consumer protection, aging, and others. (Some of these are on the county rather than state level, but the counties usually follow the state's lead.) Also, even if you don't use public schools or universities, there are many ways that good school systems can improve the quality of life for residents who are not students or parents of students.

(EDIT: I'm not saying everyone, or even anyone, needs to or even should value these things. They're just the trade-offs for lower taxes that often are forgotten in day-to-day living. As I've mentioned before, I have friends who retired from Maryland to Florida who occasionally complain about road maintenance or zoning issues or something similar, and I remind them that's the trade-off they make for lower taxes. Also, they rub their winter weather in my face, and I rub their summer weather in theirs! )

I keep seeing posts like these that either state or imply that you give up essential services or pay in other ways when you move from a high tax state to a low tax state. I see these, and in my experience it is wishful thinking. It assumes the same level of efficiency and or social system. In my upstate NY county, 90% of the county taxes go to Medicaid. I pay about 4x what my property taxes would be if my same house were in TN on a nice lake or river (I'm on neither), and I have NO sewer, have a well, have no trash pickup (have to pay a private service) and so on. While the school system is decent, it isn't any better than others I've seen in much lower tax locales. There are good teachers, but plenty just doing their time doing as little as they can get by on in terms of helping children.

Maybe, just maybe, some states (like some businesses) are better at managing the peoples finances than others.

Perhaps I am wrong and the grass isn't greener out there. But all the looking I've done tells me it is.

 

[Koolau]

I keep seeing posts like these that either state or imply that you give up essential services or pay in other ways when you move from a high tax state to a low tax state. I see these, and in my experience it is wishful thinking. It assumes the same level of efficiency and or social system. In my upstate NY county, 90% of the county taxes go to Medicaid. I pay about 4x what my property taxes would be if my same house were in TN on a nice lake or river (I'm on neither), and I have NO sewer, have a well, have no trash pickup (have to pay a private service) and so on. While the school system is decent, it isn't any better than others I've seen in much lower tax locales. There are good teachers, but plenty just doing their time doing as little as they can get by on in terms of helping children.

Maybe, just maybe, some states (like some businesses) are better at managing the peoples finances than others.

Perhaps I am wrong and the grass isn't greener out there. But all the looking I've done tells me it is.

Oddly, as I've traveled the country, the lower taxed states TEND to be the more efficient at offering good services. Maybe that makes sense. They DO a good job with what they have because they MUST do a good job. (Op.Ed - I think that argues for voting down tax increases if your state offers you such a possibility - most don't.) Obviously, a visit of a few days does not a thorough state efficiency investigation make. BUT, for instance, when you travel a state with relatively low gasoline taxes that has well maintained highways, you kind of get the idea they know how to spend folks hard earned dollars.

I happen to think my state has much to offer (especially in the natural beauty realm) but I would never defend its use of tax dollars. Infrastructure is crumbling, schools are at the bottom, property crime is yawned at by the various gummits (you rarely if ever see a story about anyone apprehended for burglary, theft, car theft, etc. - the clearance rate on murder and serious violent crime is a bit better.) One idiosyncrasy of the tax structure exempts retirees from MUCH of the taxes everyone else has to pay. Thats one reason I can sort of put up with the "issues" I see in my beloved adopted home state. YMMV